Well, it finally happened

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Please don’t take this seriously. 🙂
Thanks I enjoyed that–of course it helps to have a sense of humor!

As far as guitar music goes, the guitarist who plays at my church is studying classical guitar. He plays hymns beautifully.

I too am a revert (didn’t revert from anything just never attended Mass). I found the NO a little more “casual” feeling than the Latin Mass of my youth. I am glad to see the new translation, even with the small amount of change pew side. Not that that is the topic of discussion…
 
To each their own.

I do draw the line at a kazoo.

Srsly, I’d prefer the modern music limited to Saturday night youth mass, and keep Sunday music more traditional. That way, everyone is happy and uplifted.
Hey Whipp711, I’ll give it to you, a kazoo just doesn’t have the right “feel” to it! The young man had just a plain old fashioned guitar ( I am not sophisticated - read, too old) to know much about synthesizers and acoustic anything. I just know it was very acceptable to a very “old-style” Catholic. Thanks for everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut, this has been fun for me.
 
Truelight - that video was awful. It really bothers me when people sing Latin chants with POP style vocals. I really did not find anything moving about that rendition at all.

And that Ave Maria video was just as bad and uninspiring as the piano version. I think that all those protestant hymns translate well to guitar because they were originally composed on piano. piano really isn’t an instrument used to create an ethereal ambiance like that of traditional medieval instruments or Gregorian chant.

However, I have heard some wonderful guitar arrangements of medieval Christmas carol, such as Let all Mortal Flesh Keep Silence by Duck Baker. I think it really has to do with the alternative guitar tunings he uses on his arrangements.

But yeah, I really do not like piano or guitar during mass. Organ can sometimes be very annoying, almost circus-y. Why not do an entire mass with a hurdy gurdy? That would be incredible.
 
One of the most beautiful experiences of traditional liturgical music is to hear Silent Night played on the guitar as it was originally played. Obviously, they did not have electric guitars the whoopers or whatever those things are called. They had your basic guitar back then.

Silent Night on a guitar in its original form is inspiring. 👍

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I agree about Silent Night (Stille Nacht, Heilige Nacht). Basically all Christmas carol sound great on fingerstyle guitar (not strummed). There is this great bowed psaltery Christmas album that is accompanied by guitar on certain tracks…it is by a psaltery maker at www.ringingstrings.com.

So, I am definitely a fan of the guitar but just keep it out of mass.
 
I agree about Silent Night (Stille Nacht, Heilige Nacht). Basically all Christmas carol sound great on fingerstyle guitar (not strummed). There is this great bowed psaltery Christmas album that is accompanied by guitar on certain tracks…it is by a psaltery maker at www.ringingstrings.com.

So, I am definitely a fan of the guitar but just keep it out of mass.
I’m watching the installation of my good friend, Bishop Estevez, as the 10th Bishop of St. Augustine. I wanted to attend, but my health does not allow me to travel far from my oxygen. But they are using an entire ochestra and it is beautifully done. Which goes to show, that even though the organ has the place of primacy in liturgical music, it is possible to make very beautiful and reverent music using other instruments. The Church certainly appreciates this effort and talent. I say talent, because it’s not an easy thing to do.

Thanks for the link. It’s beautiful. I will disagree about Silent Night. I have heard Silent Night at Mid-night mass, with a single guitar and it’s beautiful.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I’ve not been attending mass long enough to experience anything more than an organ, keyboard and occasionally a flute… but I’d LOVE to one day play drums at the church I attend. I have very few talents that I feel I can offer God but that is definitely one of them.
Not many traditional Catholic church’s have other instruments besides the norm. We all know how big tradition is to the church. You’d have to venture off to a more progressive church or predominantly black Catholic church to find other instruments besides the norm. Drums are actually common in black Catholic church’s and it has everything to do with tradition, pre-slavery and after. The traditional Euro-American model of worship is much different than that of African American worship. Always has been. Most people fail to understand that.
 
Black Moses - I have no idea as to what you are talking about. Traditionally speaking, African Americans were mostly some sort of Baptist denomination. I really don’t see how drums ever played a major role in mass until the 1960s hippy masses. I really doubt any Archbishop would have allowed a certain few churches have their own drum dominated mass. Seems like a reinvested history.

Someone please enlighten me if I am wrong.
 
Not many traditional Catholic church’s have other instruments besides the norm. We all know how big tradition is to the church. You’d have to venture off to a more progressive church or predominantly black Catholic church to find other instruments besides the norm. Drums are actually common in black Catholic church’s and it has everything to do with tradition, pre-slavery and after. The traditional Euro-American model of worship is much different than that of African American worship. Always has been. Most people fail to understand that.
This is the same problem that Caucasian American Catholics have with African Catholics and Indigenous Catholics in South America. These were European colonies, but unlike the USA, Canada and Australia, European culture was unable to snuff out local culture. To many of those people who are not of European ancestry, the imposition of European music and instruments is often viewed as a sign of more European oppression. That’s why the Holy See has very different rules for them, including the allowance for liturgical dance in Africa and local instruments in South America.

I have never been in Africa, but I was a missionary in South America. It was very interesting. I had to travel between the city on the coast and the Amazon mission. The mass on the coast was very much like our mass in the USA, except in Spanish. The design of the churches was the same etc. When you went into the Rain Forest to one of the mission stations, the music, colors, and energy were very different from the coast. You suddenly realized that you were among an entirely different group of Catholics. The mass is the same, but things like music, architecture, and even attitude were very different. The Caucasians on the coast were very demure and quiet in church. The Indigenous in the Amazon were very excited. Something great was coming and they are not a people to remain quiet in the face of awe and wonder. To them, awe and wonder command an audible response. If you remain quiet, their culture interprets the silence as indifference.

So what do you do? You don’t tell them that they have to change their culture. You can explain that to the Caucasians the appropriate response to awe and wonder if a reverent silence. They will understand that. However, they will not follow suit. For them, it would be a great act of disrespect not to show some kind of acclaim in the presence of awe and wonder. What for us may be noisy, for them is reverence. If you try to change that, then you have a major problem, because they quickly associate you with their European oppressors who tried to snuff out their culture and even exterminate them unless they conformed.

The Church is not about forcing people to conform. She is about inviting people to find salvation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Guitar can be wonderful and praisefu music. I don’t get bothered until the bongos and drumset start in… 😉
 
Guitars - and even pianos shouldn’t be used in a liturgy. The whole reason people do it is because they want the hymns to “sound better” yet we do not go to mass for entertainment.
 
Guitars - and even pianos shouldn’t be used in a liturgy. The whole reason people do it is because they want the hymns to “sound better” yet we do not go to mass for entertainment.
No, we go to mass to participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Contrary to the assertions of some, praise music that manifests actual beauty does not necessarily diminish our ability to worship. I forget if it was Augustine or Jerome who said “He who sings prays twice.” Well put, IMO. I suspect most of those who object to beautiful music in the mass are the stony faced ones you see who refuse to sing along. No wonder you consider it entertainment, you aren’t contributing! Newsflash, it’s not for you, it’s for God…
 
Guitars - and even pianos shouldn’t be used in a liturgy. The whole reason people do it is because they want the hymns to “sound better” yet we do not go to mass for entertainment.
I’m surprised to see a Hispanic being this rigid when the Church is not. Did you read the situation that I described that exists in places like South America and Africa?

For these folks, this is not about entertainment, this is how they worship. It is part of their culture and has been for thousands of years. Some of these cultures are older than European Christianity. Do you want to snuff out their culture and how they worship? The Conquistadores tried to do that and they found only resistance. Their greatest oponents were Franciscans like Junipero Serra and Dominicans like Bartolomé de Las Casas.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Guitars - and even pianos shouldn’t be used in a liturgy. The whole reason people do it is because they want the hymns to “sound better” yet we do not go to mass for entertainment.
The reason people use pianos, guitars, etc. is because there are so few people available who can play the pipe organ.

I can’t play the organ at all, but I play the piano very well. I’m sorry that you find my music so offensive. Thankfully the bishop of our diocese does not find it offensive.
 
I can not stand the piano in mass. Why is the pianist and the lead singer positioned at the front of the church, just to the side of the priest? The music is just bad. Terrible protestant plague.
 
Hey Carlos . . . I got to thinking about this comment when we were at Vespers this afternoon. I realized something. As you may already know, most Franciscans do not chant the Divine Office and we rarely chant the mass. St. Francis was very opposed to chant. However, he was a big promoter of beauty in the mass and the Divine Office. He often wrote his own hymns. In those days they called them Laudas, which meant “songs of praise”. He wrote them in Italian and they were played on a mandolin, not on an organ. Obviously, they were used at mass and during the Divine Office, while the other parts were recited.

My point is that beauty has always been part of liturgy, not only among Christians. Muslims, Jews, Hindus and even Buddhists all incorporate the arts into worship. The arts are a form of lifting up the spirit and transcending one’s current state.

There is validity in wanting to make hymns sound better. It’s really an attempt to make them sound more beautiful. That takes us to another level. What may be beautiful in one culture is not beautiful in another or what may be beautiful for one person may not be beautiful for another.

I dislike percussion instruments, especially at mass. I finally realized why I dislike them. There are two very good reasons . . . I think so. 😃 Most people who play them at mass are amateurs. Therefore, their playing lacks the skill of a more seasoned percussionist, which usually makes it very loud. If you listen to an orchestra, you don’t really hear the percussion instruments over the other instruments. It all blends well together, unless it’s a moment when an instrument does a solo. That takes me to my second reason for not liking percussion instruments at mass.

I have yet to see a church that was constructed with good acoustics for percussion. In other words, the architect did not have it in mind or it was not in the budget. It reverberates all over the place. From my point of view, this is not beautiful music. It’s very loud and very discombobulated.

Having said that, you, my friends, would be surprised that even Gregorian Chant loses its flavor when the church is not properly constructed for that purpose. I’ll offer a perfect example. When I was sent to Rome to study theology I thought that I would be blown away by the music at a papal mass at St. Peter’s. The truth is that I WAS blown away. I was blown away by how badly it sounded. They had a wonderful schola. But the acoustics in St. Peter’s are horrible. The schola is barely audible. Those beautiful hymns in Gregorian Chant don’t make it to the ears of the people at mass. All you hear are voices in the distance. Those who watch on TV get a much better audio, because they’re getting a feed, which those present are not getting.

Part of the beauty is not only the instruments and voices; the other part is how it’s played and the acoustics themselves. I found that Gothic churches have the best acoustics in the world. I love them. You don’t need microphones to hear the choir and you hear every note played on the organ or the guitar. It’s something about the way that they are built. I can’t explain it, because I’m not an architect.

Anyway . . . those were my thoughts after Vespers. I was listening to us and realized that we sounded pretty good, but our chapel is slightly larger than a walk-in closet and the acoustics are very good in this house.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
No, we go to mass to participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Contrary to the assertions of some, praise music that manifests actual beauty does not necessarily diminish our ability to worship. I forget if it was Augustine or Jerome who said “He who sings prays twice.” Well put, IMO. I suspect most of those who object to beautiful music in the mass are the stony faced ones you see who refuse to sing along. No wonder you consider it entertainment, you aren’t contributing! Newsflash, it’s not for you, it’s for God…
You took one set of words and made it into something else. Yes I do participate at mass. I do sing the hymns, the difference is the hymns at my parish are traditional and not modern day upbeat songs.

I never said It was entertainment for me. I Said that people who want guitar masses just want to be entertained.
 
The reason people use pianos, guitars, etc. is because there are so few people available who can play the pipe organ.

I can’t play the organ at all, but I play the piano very well. I’m sorry that you find my music so offensive. Thankfully the bishop of our diocese does not find it offensive.
I never said pianos and guitar was offensive, I said it was not liturgical. There’s a difference.
 
I’m surprised to see a Hispanic being this rigid when the Church is not. Did you read the situation that I described that exists in places like South America and Africa?

For these folks, this is not about entertainment, this is how they worship. It is part of their culture and has been for thousands of years. Some of these cultures are older than European Christianity. Do you want to snuff out their culture and how they worship? The Conquistadores tried to do that and they found only resistance. Their greatest oponents were Franciscans like Junipero Serra and Dominicans like Bartolomé de Las Casas.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Who cares if I’m Hispanic? I said the instruments were not liturgical, and should not be used. Just because I’m Hispanic doesn’t mean I’m a liberal Catholic.

Of course I can’t object to what goes on in South America, Africa, etc. It’s the culture there. But here in the United States, it’s not like guitars are the culture here.
 
Who cares if I’m Hispanic?
Actually, it’s important, because it helps to understand a people.
I said the instruments were not liturgical, and should not be used. Just because I’m Hispanic doesn’t mean I’m a liberal Catholic.
Being Hispanic, Asian, North American or other does not make one liberal or conservative my friend.
Of course I can’t object to what goes on in South America, Africa, etc. It’s the culture there. But here in the United States, it’s not like guitars are the culture here.
I would disagree with that. Guitars are part of our culture. I do agree that there is a difference between a well-played guitar and twanging. I don’t like twanging either.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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