Well, Let's Try This Proof

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James_S_Saint

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A god == who/whatever absolutely determines what can or cannot be.

The God == Who/Whatever absolutely determines all that can or cannot be.

If such a power and characteristic is not essential to being a god, then in what way is anything a god??? :confused:
Determination is the effect of a determiner and thus if determination exists, a determiner exists.

A) If things are determinate, then whatever is determining them exists (the determiner).
B) If nothing else is determinate, such a law is determinate and exists.

Thus determination exists.
Therefore a determiner exists.

The determiner is what determines what can or cannot be and exists.

Because what determines what can or cannot be exists, God exists.
 
I guess that I should supplement that with the statement that such proof does not stipulate that ALL things must be determined, but rather that *something *must be determined (Determinism).

Soo…

If you are a Determinist believing that ALL things are determined, you still logically have to believe in God.

If you are a Free-will advocate believing that your free-will is not determined, you still logically have to believe in God.

And even if you are a Quantum Magi fan, believing that very small things are not determined, you still logically have to believe in God.

As C.S. Lewis said, “there is no excuse for Atheism.” 😉
 
Well, good. Now that that is settled, we can start arguing over the exact Characteristics of God and how we know. 😃
 
James, get over it: there ain’t no proof in logic or intellect. But trying is an admirable way of building a scaffolding for exhausting your thoughts so that you can finally see your way home.
 
James_S_Saint said:
A god == who/whatever absolutely determines what can or cannot be.

The God == Who/Whatever absolutely determines all that can or cannot be.

If such a power and characteristic is not essential to being a god, then in what way is anything a god??? :confused:
…
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I think it would be helpful to come up with a more clear definition of the God and of a god. For example, a god is defined in the Bible as:
  • Any possible desire that is greater than the desire to know or please the God
  • Any mythical diety besides the God
  • A actual demon (or fallen angel) that has rebelled against the God
And there might be other applicable definitions, as well. After choosing one of these three as the definition of a god, it will be easier to discuss how your criteria applies.

No matter what the subject, there is for those who wish to deliberate well upon it always one and the same starting point: You must know what it is you are deliberating about, or you will inevitably fail altogether. Most people, however, are not aware of their ignorance of a thing’s essential nature, and because they think they know all about it, they fail to secure agreement about the premises of their inquiry at its beginning. As they proceed, they reap the predictable harvest of this oversight: They disagree with one another and even contradict themselves. Now, you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we condemn in others.

–Socrates (Phaedrus, 237)
 
spockrates said:
I think it would be helpful to come up with a more clear definition of the God and of a god. For example, a god is defined in the Bible as:
  • Any possible desire that is greater than the desire to know or please the God
  • Any mythical diety besides the God
  • A actual demon (or fallen angel) that has rebelled against the God
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Well, the problem is…

You cannot actually define something by referencing that same something. In all of those proposed definitions, “God” is referenced within the definition as a component of it. Such doesn’t actually constitute a meaningful definition.

I agree very whole heartedly with Socrates on that issue of defining BEFORE discussing (I wish common sense dictated such). That is why I placed them there.

But realize that the Bible is not a “proof attempt” for the existence of God. It presumes the reader to already know that much and it merely reflects an account of God to Man actions and reactions.

My argument for the definition that I provided (should it be challenged) is simply that anything possessing such a power as described would necessarily have authority over any proposed “God” and thus would in reality be the God of that proposed God, God’s God. Thus the “highest God” must possess that one power at minimum, just to qualify as The God.

But the real concept of a god is that a god has the power to determine what can or cannot happen. That is the innately understood meaning of what a god is regardless of other attributes. If a god cannot determine the outcome of events, then how would it be a god at all??

It would be the same as claiming someone to be a king yet that someone has no actual authority in the land. If he can’t command as a king, then he isn’t a king regardless of what other attributes he might have.
 
James_S_Saint said:
Well, the problem is…

You cannot actually define something by referencing that same something. In all of those proposed definitions, “God” is referenced within the definition as a component of it. Such doesn’t actually constitute a meaningful definition.

I agree very whole heartedly with Socrates on that issue of defining BEFORE discussing (I wish common sense dictated such). That is why I placed them there.

But realize that the Bible is not a “proof attempt” for the existence of God. It presumes the reader to already know that much and it merely reflects an account of God to Man actions and reactions.

My argument for the definition that I provided (should it be challenged) is simply that anything possessing such a power as described would necessarily have authority over any proposed “God” and thus would in reality be the God of that proposed God, God’s God. Thus the “highest God” must possess that one power at minimum, just to qualify as The God.

But the real concept of a god is that a god has the power to determine what can or cannot happen. That is the innately understood meaning of what a god is regardless of other attributes. If a god cannot determine the outcome of events, then how would it be a god at all??

It would be the same as claiming someone to be a king yet that someone has no actual authority in the land. If he can’t command as a king, then he isn’t a king regardless of what other attributes he might have.
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How do you know there is no attempt to prove the existence of God within the pages of the Bible?

🤷
 
spockrates said:
How do you know there is no attempt to prove the existence of God within the pages of the Bible?

🤷
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Well that is a little off topic, but the most obvious thing is that no definition was provided other than Moses’ quote from God, “I am that I am”. That actually does define the Hebrew God, but hardly anyone actually understands what that really meant. And it doesn’t define God by ability, but rather by essence.

If you know the ability, you can derive the essence, But knowing the essence does not necessarily indicate the ability.

The ability is the relevance. It is “what counts” or “the effect” regardless of the essence that created the effect. You care about what has actual effect. The make behind that effect is not nearly as important. Understanding God is not nearly as important as understand that God has effect.

The Bible reports on many abilities of God, but they are not presented as “See I must exist because only I could have done that”. They are more for revealing what a person or nation should or should not do, because God would respond.

Even the Pharaoh didn’t argue that God didn’t exist, but merely tested whether he could stand up to a fight.
 
James_S_Saint said:
Well that is a little off topic, but the most obvious thing is that no definition was provided other than Moses’ quote from God, “I am that I am”. That actually does define the Hebrew God, but hardly anyone actually understands what that really meant. And it doesn’t define God by ability, but rather by essence.
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Yes, I agree that defining who God is is an entirely different (and more daunting) endeavor than proving that God is. If you are interested in seeing that there is irrefutable proof that God is, within the pages of Sacred Scripture, let me know. We can go down that rabbit trail (or perhaps that rabbit hole) if you are looking for an adventure!
James_S_Saint said:
If you know the ability, you can derive the essence, But knowing the essence does not necessarily indicate the ability.

The ability is the relevance. It is “what counts” or “the effect” regardless of the essence that created the effect. You care about what has actual effect. The make behind that effect is not nearly as important. Understanding God is not nearly as important as understand that God has effect.
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Perhaps you are correct, but that remains to be seen. If you like, consider this example: Socrates believed God to be complete and pure Wisdom. Wisdom, then, would be the essence of God, as Socrates understood the being we call God. Yet, wisdom is not merely an essence but is an ability, as well. For to know all truth, without exception, is a desirable and supernatural ability, indeed! Don’t you agree?
 
spockrates said:
Yes, I agree that defining who God is is an entirely different (and more daunting) endeavor than proving that God is. If you are interested in seeing that there is irrefutable proof that God is, within the pages of Sacred Scripture, let me know. We can go down that rabbit trail (or perhaps that rabbit hole) if you are looking for an adventure!
Click to expand...
Actually I would be interested in such a “proof” but I can’t see how that could be since it would require believing in the Bible itself first… ? The typical argument is that just because someone thought that it was “God” that did something and wrote that down, doesn’t mean that it really was God that did it.
spockrates said:
Perhaps you are correct, but that remains to be seen. If you like, consider this example: Socrates believed God to be complete and pure Wisdom. Wisdom, then, would be the essence of God, as Socrates understood the being we call God. Yet, wisdom is not merely an essence but is an ability, as well. For to know all truth, without exception, is a desirable and supernatural ability, indeed! Don’t you agree?
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But consider that having only wisdom is pointless. Imagine that if you had infinite wisdom but could for whatever reason have no effect, who would care? What good could there be to such an entity?

Unless an entity can actually DO something, what difference would it make how smart it was? And if any entity can determine what can or cannot be, then every other entity is subject to that one, whether it is wise or not.
 
James_S_Saint said:
Actually I would be interested in such a “proof” but I can’t see how that could be since it would require believing in the Bible itself first… ? The typical argument is that just because someone thought that it was “God” that did something and wrote that down, doesn’t mean that it really was God that did it.
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Actually, rather than being a consequence of believing the Bible, it would be a cause of such belief! Still care to go where no one but brave Alice will go?
James_S_Saint said:
But consider that having only wisdom is pointless. Imagine that if you had infinite wisdom but could for whatever reason have no effect, who would care? What good could there be to such an entity?

Unless an entity can actually DO something, what difference would it make how smart it was? And if any entity can determine what can or cannot be, then every other entity is subject to that one, whether it is wise or not.
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Agreed. So to Wisdom to know, shall we add power to do? Each, it seems, is a necessary part of the essence of that being we call God. And if you agree, I suppose it would be wise to say that doing any good thing it desires is not only an ability of God, but also part of the essence of God, too. Don’t you think this true?
 
spockrates said:
Actually, rather than being a consequence of believing the Bible, it would be a cause of such belief! Still care to go where no one but brave Alice will go?
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Sure, show me whatcha got. I’m the red pill type o guy. 😃 {or was that the blue pill? hmm 😊)
spockrates said:
Agreed. So to Wisdom to know, shall we add power to do? Each, it seems, is a necessary part of the essence of that being we call God. And if you agree, I suppose it would be wise to say that doing any good thing it desires is not only an ability of God, but also part of the essence of God, too. Don’t you think this true?
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God determines what is good and what isn’t. We cannot qualify God by how “good” His actions are. God determines what is good. All we can do is try to learn it.

But God also determines what is wise or not. Again, all we can do is try to learn it. We cannot say that “you are God because I see that you are wise.” That is a bit backward in presuming that we know wisdom despite not knowing God until He proves that what we thought was wisdom is what He is. In in effect it is requiring God to come down to our level just to make us think that He is God but then having to prove that we actually didn’t know what we were talking about. 😊
 
Or think about it this way;

A guy comes up to you and proclaims that he is God - The God. You talk to him for a little while and he seems to be an idiot. So you tell him that it is hard for you to believe that he is God because he doesn’t seem very bright.

So he says, “well, okay, watch this. Count out 2 pennies with your right hand and place them into your left hand.” After you do so, he then says, “okay, now count out 2 more pennies with your right hand and place those into your left hand with the others, but I am going to make 2+2=5, so after you place them in your left hand, count them.” You do so and see that sure enough, there are 5 pennies in your left hand even though at no time was either hand hidden from you.

But he doesn’t stop there. He says, “Now look at that car going down the road.” You see the car as he says, “I don’t want it going that way.” And he waves his hand. Suddenly before your eyes, that car, without the slightest hesitation, is headed in the opposite direction."

But then he sees that you are carrying a jug of distilled water from the store, still sealed. He says, “watch”. You look at the jug and see the water turning a slight purple color. You open it and taste it. It tastes like wine.

I don’t know about you, but after showing that ABILITY, despite that the guy seemed like an idiot, I would have a hard time NOT believing him to be God. And I certainly wouldn’t be quick to argue with him.

In the end, the ability to have effect supersedes any other attribute.
 
Uhhhh. James. (tap tap) That’s not thinking. That’s wishing. You didn’t experience any of those things.
 
Detales said:
Uhhhh. James. (tap tap) That’s not thinking. That’s wishing. You didn’t experience any of those things.
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Yeah but according to you no one ever experiences anything. “It is all only in your mind”.

To me, if it is ALL only in my mind, then it doesn’t matter, “experience” becomes whatever I imagine and life goes on as usual. 😃

If someone I am imagining can do those things yet I can’t, or even imagine how they could be done, then that person is far closer to being God than I am. 😊
 
James_S_Saint said:
Sure, show me whatcha got. I’m the red pill type o guy. 😃 {or was that the blue pill? hmm 😊) …
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Are you sure? Once you see the truth, even though you might not like what you see, you won’t be able to unsee it!

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
James_S_Saint said:
… God determines what is good and what isn’t. We cannot qualify God by how “good” His actions are. God determines what is good. All we can do is try to learn it. …
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Fascinating! (and, like Spock, I never use the word lightly, but only when I’m genuinely surprised)! I’ve never considered, nor heard anyone say, that God does not do what is good, but what is good is merely what God does! Please explain why you believe this.
 
james~Yeah but according to you no one ever experiences anything. “It is all only in your mind”. Huh??? You jest. You are deeply blue, by the way, the color of cyanosis. You can’t say the things you do and not be blue.
 
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