"Well, there were never true christians to begin with"

[Syele]

Syele

May you be blessed…

While I completely agree that nothing can happen without god allowing it, however, and with respect, taking it to the level you are referring to removes all chance for free will at any point in anyones life. This is counter to scripture. You also indicated the following…

This is a highly disturbing statement as it implies that God wills people to hell. Something that is also anti-biblical.

with respect to you indicating that any test will be flawed. That is exactly the point I am making. If you cannot test if you are ‘elect’ per OSAS, then the theology cant be right because the bible says we CAN test our state.

In any case, I appreciate you taking the time to respond and thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut…

In Christ

I should clarify, for the purpose of this thread I was explaining Calvinism…** I am NOT Calvinist** though.

Calvinism does not really allow for free-will. Read up on TULIP a bit and you’ll see what I mean.

What point would the test have since God predestines the whole thing anyhow? I still think your problem is a misunderstanding of Calvinism.

 

[OneForTruth]

OneForTruth,

…However, to the original question. I know others have commented that the situation I put forth is NOT possible according to OSAS/Calvinism. While that may be correct according to your understanding of scripture, it is not correct in actual practice. I have personally seen the ‘fall’ of very Christian people. Their hearts were as pure and simple as they are suppose to be, and their actions showed it. They could, and did test themselves in an honest fashion against the word of god, and were able to know that they were on the track to eternal life. Later, they fell away a were completely NOT in a Christian life. So, i have seen this happen many times. not as a hypothetical.

Now, I know the immediate response is “Well, they may have unknowingly deceived themselves when they tested it the first time” This exemplifies the problem i have. They were doing everything they thought God said, believed how they were suppose to, etc. When taking the test, they Passed.

If they deceived themselves unknowingly due to a fatal flaw in their belief, then it still gets back to a They COULDN’T test their salvation. They would have had flawed results regardless. How are you suppose to know if the result you get when you test yourself is a flawed result, or a true result. You can’t, especially if you are unknowingly deceiving yourself.

IOW… You still can’t test yourself. If you cant test yourself, then that means the theology has some serious problems because the bible is very clear that we CAN test our selves…

In Christ

We can test ourselevs up against the scriptures that are throughout 1 John as well as in other areas of scripture…

Let’s take a look…if you have been born of God you may see…

Practicing of righteousness…
1 John 2:29…29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Loves the brethren…
1 John 3:14…14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

Hates sin and does not practice it…
1 John 3:9…9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Loves…
1 John 4:7…7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

Confesses…
1 John 4:15…15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Believes on Christ…
1 John 5:1…1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

Perseveres…
1 John 5:4…4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

Keeps commandments…
1 John 2:3…3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

By the way, after John says all of the things he writes…

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Not lustful…
Galatians 5:24 NAS95 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Walk in the Spirit…
Romans 8:4 NAS95 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:9…9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Perform works…
John 14:12…12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

John even makes this statement in 1 John 5:19

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

We are to continually examine ourselves and make certain of our calling and election (2 Peter 1:10).

(cont’d)

 

[OneForTruth]

A couple of parables that we can see together in Matthew 3 also shed some light on the kingdon and the nature of it…

Matthew 13:24-30 NAS95 24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who **sowed good seed **in his field. 25 "But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. 26 "But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. 27 "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 "And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29 “But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

By tares is probably meant a degenerate kind of wheat, or the darnel grass growing in Palestine. In its growth and form it has a strong resemblance to genuine wheat. But it either produces no grain, or that of a very inferior and hurtful kind. Probably it comes near to what we mean by chess. It was extremely difficult to separate it from the genuine wheat, on account of its similarity while growing. Thus it aptly represented hypocrites in the church. Strongly resembling Christians in their experience, and, in some respects, their lives, it is impossible to distinguish them from genuine Christians, nor can they be separated until it is done by the great Searcher of hearts at the day of judgment.: An enemy–the devil–hath done it. And nowhere has he shown profounder cunning, or done more to adulterate the purity of the gospel.

In the same chapter we have another parable…

Matthew 13:47-50 NAS95 47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; 48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If they do not fall away before judgment, they will be found out in the end.

2 Corinthians 13:5 NAS95 5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Can part of that power be to grant true free will…? …

If we have no free will then we have no need for reason. If there is no need for reason, then there is no need for personal responsibility.

I am hoping I can succeed in keeping well away from folks who have exercised their free will to decide against reason and personal responsibility.

:doh2:

 

[heisenburg]

OFT…

I Fully believe and 100% agree we can test ourselves… Don’t have an issue with that at all, and that is NOT what i am arguing against…

With respect, i think you misunderstand what i am saying… I am not talking about me judging someone else. I am talking about an individual that honestly judges themselves, passes, and then judges later only to fail.

This can and does happen.

If they were flawed in their understanding because god did not give them the proper understanding as has been espoused, then it is impossible to test our selves because we can not know if we are testing with true eyes, or flawed eyes.

If we cannot test ourselves, then OSAS is not accurate because the bible says we can.

I am NOT arguing against other aspects of OSAS. I am arguing against THIS aspect. The only refutation that I have seen to this aspect was someone saying… well… thats not possible according to OSAS… which is exactly my point. It DOES happen. it has happened, it will happen again.

If you test yourself as true then you will never test false…
If you test yourself later to be false… one of two things is wrong

OSAS is wrong because the Bible says we CAN test ourselves
the Bible is wrong because we in fact can’t test our selves…

Personally, I think I will trust the bible over a tradition that started with Calvin.

In Christ

 

[mikeledes]

John 15:1-2, 6

**1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. **

Romans 11:20-22

**20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.**

Ezekiel 18:26

26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

You cannot be a “branch” if you are not an integral part of the Vine or olive tree. A “superficial” believer or hypocrite can never be incorporated into Christ and hence cannot be a part of the Vine or olive tree.

God bless,
Michael