Went to a Melkite Divine Liturgy

[scapularkid8]

The church itself was beautiful icons and all. I just wish I could have participated more in the Liturgy. I kinda caught on that you just cross yourself any time the Trinity is mentioned or a blessing is made (i.e. Peace to all), or a holy object passes you (the Gospel, or the gifts). I was most impressed by the two Entrances and the incensing, and I really liked the fan the Deacon had with the Cherubim on it with bells that hit the brass sounded like wings beating above the Body and Blood. HUGE throwback to the tent of the Presence in Exodus! I liked the Deacon’s responses to a lot of things and how he would ask the priest to bless the bread and wine to become the Sacred Presence ("Amen. And Father bless this wine…). The deacon seemed like the voice of the people at the altar and it was really interesting the contrast between a deacon in the East and a deacon in the West.

I was at St. Ann in West Paterson NJ, by the way, just in case anyone might know it.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

Melkite liturgies are beyond beautiful! I’m lucky enough to have a parish right around the corner from me.

 

[catherineajt]

I had emailed the priest at our Byzantine church before we went (to make sure what language the Liturgy was said in, among other things). I had let him know that we were converts to Orthodoxy who were “coming home” to the Catholic church…

He said after the service that he knew it was us at the Liturgy because “You knew to bow when I was censing the people.” I feel like our year in the Orthodox church, while in some ways personally regrettable, really gave us an education on the Eastern practices.

I’m glad you enjoyed the Liturgy. I find it to be a most beautiful form of worship.

 

[scapularkid8]

I had emailed the priest at our Byzantine church before we went (to make sure what language the Liturgy was said in, among other things). I had let him know that we were converts to Orthodoxy who were “coming home” to the Catholic church…

He said after the service that he knew it was us at the Liturgy because “You knew to bow when I was censing the people.” I feel like our year in the Orthodox church, while in some ways personally regrettable, really gave us an education on the Eastern practices.

I’m glad you enjoyed the Liturgy. I find it to be a most beautiful form of worship.

First off: WELCOME HOME!!! It’s good to see a fellow Christian at the bottom of the hill of Rome. Myself and plenty of others are waiting on the top with open arms if you ever need encouragement, prayers, or just a place to vent!..I mean it.

Ironically enough, I knew the theology behind the censing of the congregation as an icon so I bowed (of all people the Latin bows!) and nobody else did, they just crossed themselves.
What I thought was kinda sad though was that my friend who took me (who is Melkite) didn’t even know the words of the Apostle’s Creed… …I knew the Divine Liturgy better than him and I’ve only been one time before that… makes me worried for the future of the East…

 

[scapularkid8]

One thing that did surprise me was that they didn’t ever refer to Mary as Theotokos. It was always just “Mother of God”. Some traces of Latinization I guess.

 

[Alexios]

I know of that church; I have a “traditional” Roman Catholic friend who attended and served there. He was raised Melkite, I believe, but identifies as Roman Catholic of the traditional persuasion. Don’t know if he’s canonically transfered sui iuris Churches. Anyway I think he used to serve as an acolyte/altar boy there.

Too bad at the Melkite church in Atlanta (which is beautiful and has a great priest) does not have a deacon.

 

[Ghosty]

One thing that did surprise me was that they didn’t ever refer to Mary as Theotokos. It was always just “Mother of God”. Some traces of Latinization I guess.

Mother of God would be the proper English translation of the term; theotokos is simply the Greek.

It’s not a Latinization, but an English translation.

Peace and God bless!

 

[bpbasilphx]

One thing that did surprise me was that they didn’t ever refer to Mary as Theotokos. It was always just “Mother of God”. Some traces of Latinization I guess.

“Mother of God” is considered the English equivalent of “Theotokos” (which would more properly be rendered “Birthgiver of God”). I prefer “Theotokos” as the term was accepted as definitive by an Ecumenical Council.

 

[scapularkid8]

One thing that did surprise me was that they didn’t ever refer to Mary as Theotokos. It was always just “Mother of God”. Some traces of Latinization I guess.

“Mother of God” is considered the English equivalent of “Theotokos” (which would more properly be rendered “Birthgiver of God”). I prefer “Theotokos” as the term was accepted as definitive by an Ecumenical Council.

Well I, as a Latin (if I may humbly say), prefer Theotokos as well since there’s a little essence of the term lost in translation…IMHO.

 

[Aramis]

Theotokos is a beautiful term… but is not readily inteligible without good catechesis.

 

[Ghosty]

Theotokos is a beautiful term… but is not readily inteligible without good catechesis.

And therein lies the very appropriate reason for translating it. The original point of the term Theotokos was to provide catechesis, not require it; it explained Mary’s relationship to God, but more importantly it explained the nature of the Incarnation.

If the term isn’t immediately understood in a language, then its catechetical value is severely limited. Beautiful or not, “Mother of God” actually unequivocally expresses the meaning that Theotokos does, and is therefore a fine liturgical term in English; there’s a reason why the East has almost always insisted on translating the Divine Liturgy into the vernacular.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Woodstock]

Theotokos means she who has given birth to God and does not mean Mother of God, which is a separate and distinct title.

If Theotokos and Bogorodista are translated as Mother of God, then how should Mater Boha be translated? They appear together back to back in the Liturgy and Mater Boha means Mother of God.

Theotokos can’t be translated as God-bearer, either, because that one is taken in English as a translation of the title Theophoros.

They returned to Theotokos because of the clumsiness of the proper translation, to be in line with the rest of the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches, and to use a term from an Ecumenical Council which has been well known by theologians for over a millennium and in English for centuries. Improperly translating it into the vernacular as Mother of God does not rise to level worthy of overriding the preceding in my book. If it is going to be translated, it should be translated correctly.

 

[Diak]

“Mother of God” is certainly an acceptable liturgical term; the Old Ritualist English liturgical translations make almost exclusive use of “Mother of God” rather than “Theotokos”, and no one will accuse them of being overly innovative.
FDRLB

 

[Ghosty]

Theotokos means she who has given birth to God and does not mean Mother of God, which is a separate and distinct title.

If Theotokos and Bogorodista are translated as Mother of God, then how should Mater Boha be translated? They appear together back to back in the Liturgy and Mater Boha means Mother of God.

Theotokos can’t be translated as God-bearer, either, because that one is taken in English as a translation of the title Theophoros.

They returned to Theotokos because of the clumsiness of the proper translation, to be in line with the rest of the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches, and to use a term from an Ecumenical Council which has been well known by theologians for over a millennium and in English for centuries. Improperly translating it into the vernacular as Mother of God does not rise to level worthy of overriding the preceding in my book. If it is going to be translated, it should be translated correctly.

The literal meaning may not be present, but the theological meaning is. That’s the important part. Unless Theotokos is a part of common English speech it’s not going to carry the same psychological weight for most people as an English expression that teaches the same Mystery does.

I’m reminded of a priest I heard speak, who had worked with Native Alaskan tribes. The tribe he worked with lacked the language necessary to convey the concept of Grace (they also lacked the language necessary to translate some of the common-place sayings in Scripture, such as those concerning sheep, since their people had never seen sheep or anything like them). The priest was impressed with the fact that they took their own terms to convey the meanings of the Catholic Faith; for Grace they used the expression “pregnant with God”, because of the connotations of pregnancy in their language it made a nice fit. It wasn’t a literal translation of the English, Latin, or Greek, but it was sufficient to convey the meaning of an otherwise incredibly difficult Mystery.

Peace and God bless!

 

[dvdjs]

The literal meaning may not be present, but the theological meaning is. That’s the important part. Unless Theotokos is a part of common English speech it’s not going to carry the same psychological weight for most people as an English expression that teaches the same Mystery does.

Sad to say, but in our times - with the proliferation of step-mothers as primary care givers, surrogate mothers, etc. - “mother” is becoming increasingly connected to rearing rather than conception, gestation, and birth-giving. Who, in our way of speaking, is the mother of an adopted child? Who is the mother of a child born of a surrogate? Who is the mother of a child born by IVF with donated ova?

There may be an increasing tendency for “mother” to be understood in a way that profoundly misses the theological point. Isn’t our use of “mother”, compatible with outright heresy? Perhaps we will eventualy require the more precise phrase “biological mother”. I hope that “Theotokos” becomes mainstream first.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Theotokos is a beautiful term… but is not readily inteligible without good catechesis.

That can be said about a lot of things. After 30+ years, I still don’t know what “a mercy of peace” actually means.

 

[Aramis]

Theotokos is a beautiful term… but is not readily inteligible without good catechesis.

That can be said about a lot of things. After 30+ years, I still don’t know what “a mercy of peace” actually means.

In the RDL, it’s “Mercy, Peace, a Sacrifice of Praise!” Apparently an instruction to the faithful.