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RomanRyan1088
Guest
Psalm45:9:
Yea just to make the Protestants happy, sounds like something us Catholics would do.
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Yes, the Orthododox are schismatics, but they’re a thousand times more liturgically gifted than your average Eastern Catholic parish. Cremonies are more elaborate, and the liturgies are not nearly as abridged as much your average Eastern Catholic one is. 99/9% of Eastern Catholic parishes in this country (obviously I don’t have exact statistics, take my hyperbole for what it is) omit so much from the Byzantine liturgy: various litanies, proper vestments, the Rite of preparation, etc. They have innovations like “First Solemn Communion” for 7 year-olds, poor CCD classes, etc. Many of them even have so-called “Read Masses” (Liturgies that are not sung), an abomination to authentic Eastern worshippers.
Don’t believe me? Invite an Orthodox Christian, immersed with centuries of Eastern tradition, to an Eastern Catholic liturgy. Like I said, he’d probably see it as a parody.
Give the schismatics credit where it is due.
And what was said about SSPX Masses and the indult is also largely true. Many (most?) indults are not celebrated properly, or as properly as they should be. This is one thing that, for example, distinguishes the Society of Saint John Cantius from the various local indults. It’s not just “pomp and circumstance,” the ceremonies are carried our to a “T”; you don’t just have some old priest who like the Old Rite and thinks he can remember it from scratch.
Poorly celebrated indults are still a stumbling block to radical traditionalists who worship in schismatic chapels; thus the indult, for other reasons as well, is often called the “Insult.”
However, your average Catholic, used as he is to the average hokey-pokey that passes for Mass at his own parish, sees a traditional Eastern or Tridentine liturgy, even a poorly celebrated one, and thinks it’s the most beautiful thing this side of heaven. It’s because he doesn’t know better.
Sorry to sound pessimistic, but it’s true . . .
Don’t believe me? Invite an Orthodox Christian, immersed with centuries of Eastern tradition, to an Eastern Catholic liturgy. Like I said, he’d probably see it as a parody.
Give the schismatics credit where it is due.
This is extremely rare. Good, but rare.
And what was said about SSPX Masses and the indult is also largely true. Many (most?) indults are not celebrated properly, or as properly as they should be. This is one thing that, for example, distinguishes the Society of Saint John Cantius from the various local indults. It’s not just “pomp and circumstance,” the ceremonies are carried our to a “T”; you don’t just have some old priest who like the Old Rite and thinks he can remember it from scratch.
Poorly celebrated indults are still a stumbling block to radical traditionalists who worship in schismatic chapels; thus the indult, for other reasons as well, is often called the “Insult.”
However, your average Catholic, used as he is to the average hokey-pokey that passes for Mass at his own parish, sees a traditional Eastern or Tridentine liturgy, even a poorly celebrated one, and thinks it’s the most beautiful thing this side of heaven. It’s because he doesn’t know better.
Sorry to sound pessimistic, but it’s true . . .
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deogratias
Guest
I don’t have a lot of “experience” with Eastern or Orthodox but I’ll offer what I have.
One person I know is Ukranian Orthodox. She has not been to Church for years nor has her daughter or her neice. But the neice had a baby last year and they had it Baptized. The daughter is pretty much an atheist - she was the God mother. I asked her if she planned on assuring the child would be raised a good Christian and she rolled her eyes at me.
This was done in a Greek Ordthodox Church. The baby was not confirmed or given communion which I thought was the custom anyway.
I asked them why they were having a big party and so on given their lack of belief, they replied “Oh, its not a religious thing, its a Ukranian thing”.
OTOH I have a friend who attends a Byzantine Rite and his baby had the full baptism and communion and confirmation. The Godparents had to be members in good standing.
Then I have a friend who is married to a Russian Orthodox Priest (prior to that she was RC). Now she swears ALL Orthodox folks read ALL the fathers. I have not met any who have. But I have not met many RC or Eastern Rite folks who have either except for some on the forums.
I have only attended two eastern Rites and they were the Ukranian (eastern rite , not Orthodox) rites celebrated here by the Miles Jesu Priests and they both used the full Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. There were no pews but there were chairs for those of us who could not stand the long times.
So it is seems to me, there can be no blanket statements about any rite or parish - because, as you say, there is that human element.
A rite is only as right as its leader I guess.
One person I know is Ukranian Orthodox. She has not been to Church for years nor has her daughter or her neice. But the neice had a baby last year and they had it Baptized. The daughter is pretty much an atheist - she was the God mother. I asked her if she planned on assuring the child would be raised a good Christian and she rolled her eyes at me.
This was done in a Greek Ordthodox Church. The baby was not confirmed or given communion which I thought was the custom anyway.
I asked them why they were having a big party and so on given their lack of belief, they replied “Oh, its not a religious thing, its a Ukranian thing”.
OTOH I have a friend who attends a Byzantine Rite and his baby had the full baptism and communion and confirmation. The Godparents had to be members in good standing.
Then I have a friend who is married to a Russian Orthodox Priest (prior to that she was RC). Now she swears ALL Orthodox folks read ALL the fathers. I have not met any who have. But I have not met many RC or Eastern Rite folks who have either except for some on the forums.
I have only attended two eastern Rites and they were the Ukranian (eastern rite , not Orthodox) rites celebrated here by the Miles Jesu Priests and they both used the full Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. There were no pews but there were chairs for those of us who could not stand the long times.
So it is seems to me, there can be no blanket statements about any rite or parish - because, as you say, there is that human element.
A rite is only as right as its leader I guess.
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Guy
Guest
I absolutely love the Byzantine Rite. We have a Byzantine Rite parish in Omer, a town about 60 miles from us which we attend occasionally.
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Guy
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Brendan
There is a Byzantine Rite parish in Allen Park (St. Stephens)
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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It is sad, but some of what Dom is talking about does occur but it is on the way out.
I would add that the Orthodox are not a good example to hold us up to, after all there is a Greek Orthodox Cathedral with an organ.
But what I find truly offensive is that a Roman Catholic is posting on the abuses in our Churches. Look at the threads on the abuses in the Latin Church, you do not find any Byzantines in there pointing out where you fall short.
It is very easy to point out problems, it is much harder to point out solutions or good things.
And they can ask where the organ is? Or point out other nit picky things such as (some of our churches) use of “Christians of the True Faith” instead of “Orthodox Christians”.
I would say that some of the issues would be usage, not really abuses as you seem to say.
We use the Ruthenian usage where as the Melkies use the Greek usage. There are differences in the way some things are done. The OCA has gone to the Russian usage, this differes in some ways from what we do. Its just a fact of tradition. Unlike the Mass, the Divine Litrugy can and does look a little different in each Church. I find nothing wrong with this.
So you have been to most every Indult Mass or are you making an over reaching generalization from your anecdotal experiences?
Don’t sound pessimistic to me, you sound as if you think you are superior. Like you are lecturing us, telling us where we fall short.
One last thing, you say that an 1 1/2 liturgy is rare… Lets see, I have been to about 8 to 10 different liturgies which range from 1 hour to just under 2 hours. So tell me how rare this is and where you get your facts?
You seem to make a lot of dismissive statements about the state of our Church’s liturgy but offer no source for your facts.
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a_pilgrim
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Old photo, Ryan… when originally built, the church had the pew arrangement you see in the photo with the traditional “Latin-esque” center aisle and two side aisles. A little over a year ago (Easter season 2003, as I understand) about half of the pews were removed from the building and the remaining ones were rearranged and pushed more toward the sides, opening up the entire center and back areas of the church for those who choose to stand.
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a_pilgrim
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Old photo, Ryan… when originally built, the church had the pew arrangement you see in the photo with the traditional “Latin-esque” center aisle and two side aisles. A little over a year ago (Easter season 2003, as I understand) about half of the pews were removed from the building and the remaining ones were rearranged and pushed more toward the sides, opening up the entire center and back areas of the church for those who choose to stand.
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deogratias
Guest
One has to wonder if we are not overlooking the greater problem and that is: Why are Roman Catholics who wish to remain Catholic feel compelled to go to either an Indult Tridentine Mass or an Eastern Rite Mass or even an SSPX Mass rather than to the normative Mass.
So many seek these out because of dissatisfaction with the normative and their reaction is immediate as was Johns to find a liturgy with beauty that gives them a spiritual satisfaction they probably have not found in the normative Mass they currently attend.
I have attended a few normative Masses that were equally beautiful, one in Latin even but from what I read on these boards and my own personal experience, one has to wonder if there is not something missing. What many of us find lacking and search for is the beauty and sacred and the artistic in our liturgy, in our Church buildings and in our music which lifts us to only the good, only the true, only the beautiful and to God.
So many seek these out because of dissatisfaction with the normative and their reaction is immediate as was Johns to find a liturgy with beauty that gives them a spiritual satisfaction they probably have not found in the normative Mass they currently attend.
I have attended a few normative Masses that were equally beautiful, one in Latin even but from what I read on these boards and my own personal experience, one has to wonder if there is not something missing. What many of us find lacking and search for is the beauty and sacred and the artistic in our liturgy, in our Church buildings and in our music which lifts us to only the good, only the true, only the beautiful and to God.
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a_pilgrim
Guest
To all…
Please don’t misunderstand the whole “no pew thing.” It is not at all an “I-stand through-the-WHOLE-Liturgy-so-I’m-holier-than-you” -type thing. It’s based in practical reasoning. Proper worship in the Byzantine liturgical tradition involves the entire body. Many points of the ancient liturgical celebrations call for the participant to make a full bow from the waist in conjunction with the Sign of the Cross. Pews, literally, are in the way for this sort of activity. To take things one step further, there are even worship ceremonies that, if performed “properly’” call for full prostrations - that is, the participant fully on his knees with forehead touching the floor. I think the argument against pews in these instances is self-evident.
These are for the most part ancient ritualistic customs that, truth be told, have not made their way back into regular Byzantine worship in America (I only witnessed maybe three or four individuals making full bows from the waist during the Liturgy this past Sunday - most of the rest used abbreviated bows, or no bow at all). Don’t know if these practices ever will return in full force, but removal of the pews at least allows the faithful the opportunity to return to them, should they choose to do so.
…besides, it’s fun to watch the “little ones” meander in and out among the standing “forest” of their extended church family during the Liturgy!
a pilgrim
Please don’t misunderstand the whole “no pew thing.” It is not at all an “I-stand through-the-WHOLE-Liturgy-so-I’m-holier-than-you” -type thing. It’s based in practical reasoning. Proper worship in the Byzantine liturgical tradition involves the entire body. Many points of the ancient liturgical celebrations call for the participant to make a full bow from the waist in conjunction with the Sign of the Cross. Pews, literally, are in the way for this sort of activity. To take things one step further, there are even worship ceremonies that, if performed “properly’” call for full prostrations - that is, the participant fully on his knees with forehead touching the floor. I think the argument against pews in these instances is self-evident.
These are for the most part ancient ritualistic customs that, truth be told, have not made their way back into regular Byzantine worship in America (I only witnessed maybe three or four individuals making full bows from the waist during the Liturgy this past Sunday - most of the rest used abbreviated bows, or no bow at all). Don’t know if these practices ever will return in full force, but removal of the pews at least allows the faithful the opportunity to return to them, should they choose to do so.
…besides, it’s fun to watch the “little ones” meander in and out among the standing “forest” of their extended church family during the Liturgy!
a pilgrim
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Byz-Cath:
Contary to what you may think, you and I share the same religion: Catholicism. I am Catholic before I am Latin, and you before you are Eastern.
So yeah, I don’t like abuses wherever I see them.
As to the 2-hour liturgies, I am sincerely glad that they are becoming more common. I can tell you that it hasn’t trickled down here to South Florida. (I’ve seen mixed stuff in Chicago.)
Contary to what you may think, you and I share the same religion: Catholicism. I am Catholic before I am Latin, and you before you are Eastern.
So yeah, I don’t like abuses wherever I see them.
As to the 2-hour liturgies, I am sincerely glad that they are becoming more common. I can tell you that it hasn’t trickled down here to South Florida. (I’ve seen mixed stuff in Chicago.)
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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So now South Florida is the center of the universe? I know it is Heaven’s waiting room…
Now on to the other comment… Can we really be just Catholics? Can you show me the Catholic Liturgy, the Catholic rite, the Catholic tradition?
I do not see how one can separate their Catholicism from their rite. Can’t be done.
Now I will agree that we are all Christians but that still does not give you the right to point out faults in others without at least working to fix the fault.
Its not your place to tell us were we fall short.
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Psalm45_9
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I agree.
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Psalm45_9
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I am not an Eastern Catholic, but you guys have my sympathies.
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Catholic_Eagle
Guest
I once read an interview with the head of the Society of St.Josaphat[an Ukrainian SSPX associate]in Polish. The priest said that one of the sad modernizations in his rite were the shortened liturgies. He said that a proper Divine Liturgy should take about three hours, while now these liturgies are less than an hour long. I wish I could attend a long Divine Liturgy[St.Basil’s or St.John CHrysostom] or Mass[Traditional Latin] like that…:crying:. BUT NOT A CHARISMATIC,LIFETEEN MESS, I mean Mass
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deogratias
Guest
I don’t think it is your pessimisim but your disputatiousness and implied authority and unyielding tenacity that I find borders on being uncharitable with some of the posters at times. -
Truth can be divisive - I won’t dispute that but some of what you post as absolute is without documentation and so falls into the realm of opinion - yours vs theirs.
In otherwords, lighten up and it wouldn’t hurt to acknowledge you could be wrong once in a while
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Orientale_Lumen
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Catholic Eagle:
I chant. Though my parish, unfortunately, doesn’t serve the full Liturgy, I have chanted at a parish which does. A Divine Liturgy can be chanted respectfully, without dragging it out, in well under two hours (including sermon and Communion). If one adds Matins and/or any of the Hours before the Liturgy this will, of course, lengthen the service.
The only way I can imagine a three hour Divine Liturgy is with a choir singing composed (concert piece) responses, and a long sermon added in for good measure.
I chant. Though my parish, unfortunately, doesn’t serve the full Liturgy, I have chanted at a parish which does. A Divine Liturgy can be chanted respectfully, without dragging it out, in well under two hours (including sermon and Communion). If one adds Matins and/or any of the Hours before the Liturgy this will, of course, lengthen the service.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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Catholic Eagle,
While it is true that our Divine Liturgy in its fullness would take 3 hours, or in some cases longer, this is more suited to the monastery. This is not for local parish use.
The Litrugy has always been abridged in the parish setting.
While it is true that our Divine Liturgy in its fullness would take 3 hours, or in some cases longer, this is more suited to the monastery. This is not for local parish use.
The Litrugy has always been abridged in the parish setting.
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Orientale_Lumen
Guest
Sorry, forgot to add that I’m speaking of the Slavic tradition in regards to chanting and Divine Liturgy length. Music is different from Church to Church so even with the same text service length can vary.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Orientale Lumen:
I believe that this is what the individual was speaking of.
Actually if you add all the prayers, litanies, and antiphons the Divine Liturgy will take from 1 hour and 15 minutes to 1 hour and 30 minutes. Then, following tradition, the Divine Liturgy is preceded by Matins (or I believe Orthos) it will last up to 2 hours and 40 minuites to 3 hours.
I believe that this is what the individual was speaking of.
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