We're all going to Hell

[Seeks_God]

villaneweva:

is placing my ability to live comfortably in front of another’s ability to survive scrupulosity? indulging in luxery is effectively choosing your desires over another’s life.

thanks,
villaneweva

I would also think it a sin not to accept God’s blessing. Is the person thankful for their good fortune? I tend to think of it in terms of being a parent - why would I reward my child with a material good I did not want them to indulge in? I think having material goods does not make a person selfish or uncharitable. Are they helping the poor to their abilities? I would think that a rich person has more resources to help the poor, but can still indulge in his/her good fortune as long as it is done with complete thankfulness in the Lord…

just a thought…

SG

 

[ElizabethJoy]

villaneweva:

is placing my ability to live comfortably in front of another’s ability to survive scrupulosity?

I guess I’m not getting it.

How does your living comfortably in any way weaken someone else’s ability to survive?

indulging in luxery is effectively choosing your desires over another’s life.

How can your purchase of a luxury end someone’s life?

Elizabeth

 

[sconea]

Are ‘apologetics’ cruises a luxury spending money that should go to the poor?

 

[villaneweva]

hey guys, thanks for the quick responses

How does your living comfortably in any way weaken someone else’s ability to survive?

instead of purchasing a new computer, I could have used that money to save a child from starvation. In effect, I’m choosing to own a computer instead of saving the child’s life.

How can your purchase of a luxury end someone’s life?

by indulging in luxery you’re essentially choosing your comfortable lifestyle over the life of someone else.

Gha this is so confusing . does this mean that if we grant extensive medical care to a loved one, we are choosing our friend’s life over a hundred other people?

---

Anyways, I feel as if we have strayed too far from the original subject of this thread, that Jesus said our treatment of the "least of the starving/thirsty/needy are synomonous with our treatment of Jesus

1. Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.

Correct me if i’m wrong, but it seems as if we are responsible for the well being of these unfortuante peoples. Likewise, God expects us NOT only to hope that the hungry are fed, but that the hungry ARE fed.

I would also think it a sin not to accept God’s blessing. Is the person thankful for their good fortune? I tend to think of it in terms of being a parent - why would I reward my child with a material good I did not want them to indulge in? I think having material goods does not make a person selfish or uncharitable. Are they helping the poor to their abilities? I would think that a rich person has more resources to help the poor, but can still indulge in his/her good fortune as long as it is done with complete thankfulness in the Lord…

I see your point, but using your analogy, what if the parent gave the child a toy to give the child a choice whether or not to share his new plaything? Likewise, the good fortune of living in an industrial state is a test by God to see if we will share our bounty with others as a testimony of His love for us.

thanks,
villaneweva

 

[Seeks_God]

villaneweva:

Gha this is so confusing . does this mean that if we grant extensive medical care to a loved one, we are choosing our friend’s life over a hundred other people?

I don’t really think you (by yourself) is capable of helping every single needy person on the planet. I think (though I might be wrong) that Jesus’ intention is for you or I or the next person to help people within our distinctive abilities.

villaneweva:

Correct me if i’m wrong, but it seems as if we are responsible for the well being of these unfortuante peoples. Likewise, God expects us NOT only to hope that the hungry are fed, but that the hungry ARE fed.

No arguement here.

I think if you feel guilty for buying a computer than you better run to confession…just kidding. I think you are only capable of so much. Why didn’t Jesus relieve ALL our sufferings if He came to save? There is a reason, whcih I think is the same reason God has not given us the ability to relieve the sufferings of all people. We have individual gifts God has granted us for individual reasons. Why are some of us called to marriage and some of us called to Holy Orders? Different reasons, different purposes. Sometimes I don’t think the questions should be “Why did God command me?” but rather “Why did I not comply with God’s commandment of me?”

just my thoughts…

SG

 

[Seeks_God]

villaneweva:

I see your point, but using your analogy, what if the parent gave the child a toy to give the child a choice whether or not to share his new plaything? Likewise, the good fortune of living in an industrial state is a test by God to see if we will share our bounty with others as a testimony of His love for us.

Oh, I think there is some wisdom in that very statement…but it really speaks to stewardship…How responsible are we with the possessions God has given us? As a father, I can not give up all my possessions and follow God…God expects me to take care of my children. There is some wisdom in that I’m teaching my children how to be loving Christians…

and you can guarantee that if my children do not share their toys they loose them :ehh:

In this day and age there are so many different and intelligent ways to give to the poor. Our family for example gives clothes, food and money on a routine basis to local charities…an example of what is not needed by us and is given away. I think there is ability for people to give, but I also think that sometimes the ‘needy’ need spiritual guidance more than material goods - i.e teach him to fish and he’ll eat for a lifetime.

SG

 

[crusader4life]

When looking at a particular passage in the Bible we got to remember to look at it as a whole instead of making an individual passage our main focus. Then we lose focus of the big picture and the big plan God has for us.

True there we will always need to help the poor of materials, but have you considered the poor of the spirit??? The US is in dire need for spiritual and moral healing. Like Mother Teresa said India is rich, America is poor and needs all the help she can get! (That wasn’t the direct quote…)

When think about giving service to the poor, consider healing the poor in spirit. We need all the help we can get!

Now for the treasures…like others said before it’s all for the greater glory of God. It’s not to show off wealth and power or whatnot… If you had to build Jesus’ church would you keep it to a simple brick design? I don’t know about you but I’d donate my time and savings to elaborate the building and make it suitable and pleasing to Him. He certainly deserves it!

 

[mozier]

If you do not buy that $80 meal, then you deny income to the cooks, the wait staff, and the restaurant owner. By your reasoning then, Villaneweva, you are now responsible for these people losing their jobs for lack of business, the loss of their homes, and their families’ suffering because you denied them your business.

You cannot control the whole world or the circumstances therein, Villaneweva. The best you can do is do the best you can, and trust the words of our saviour, who taught us to pray that we be forgiven of our trespasses, both known and unknown.

Seriously, Villaneweva, if you keep obsessing over this, then you are going to go insane. Seek help with a good priest who can spriritually guide you away from this extreme scrupulosity of yours.

 

[fix]

villaneweva:

is placing my ability to live comfortably in front of another’s ability to survive scrupulosity? indulging in luxery is effectively choosing your desires over another’s life.

thanks,
villaneweva

This is not good reasoning. Can you prove that in every case your decision to buy something deprives another of some material good?

How much is too much? Should you not own a car? What about clothes? Perhaps taking a shower is depriving another of water to drink?

I would like to ask how are you deciding what is a luxury? We all have different stations in life and we all should be faithful to these. That does not mean each person must live in a tent with only rags to wear.

 

[villaneweva]

God expects me to take care of my children. There is some wisdom in that I’m teaching my children how to be loving Christians…

Definitely.

I don’t really think you (by yourself) is capable of helping every single needy person on the planet. I think (though I might be wrong) that Jesus’ intention is for you or I or the next person to help people within our distinctive abilities.

Yes, I bleieve we should help people within our distinctive abilities, but the question I am really asking, is HOW much are we suppossed to help people? Just because we are limited in our abilities does not mean we should not try to use them in their fullest potential!

Jesus didn’t end with saving only the Jews or the Christians, but every human being who was ever concieved.

Why didn’t Jesus relieve ALL our sufferings if He came to save? There is a reason, whcih I think is the same reason God has not given us the ability to relieve the sufferings of all people.

yes, I am aware of the fact that i can’t relieve the sufferings of all people and I’m not saying that I can! But how much should I devote my life to helping people instead of helping myself?

True there we will always need to help the poor of materials, but have you considered the poor of the spirit??? The US is in dire need for spiritual and moral healing.

That’s a good point and one I should think more of… heh

If you do not buy that $80 meal, then you deny income to the cooks, the wait staff, and the restaurant owner. By your reasoning then, Villaneweva, you are now responsible for these people losing their jobs for lack of business, the loss of their homes, and their families’ suffering because you denied them your business.

No, Mozier, I’m not. There will be people who will not do as I do and as a result, will remain as the customer base of this restauarant. Hyopthetically, I would deny them my business because I feel that it is my responsibiltiy as a Christian to clothe the naked and feed the hungry.

You cannot control the whole world or the circumstances therein, Villaneweva. The best you can do is do the best you can, and trust the words of our saviour, who taught us to pray that we be forgiven of our trespasses, both known and unknown.

Yes, I know I can’t controlthe world/ ameliorate all the suffering inthe world. However, does that mean I shouldn’t try my best to lessen the pain as much as I can?

This is not good reasoning. Can you prove that in every case your decision to buy something deprives another of some material good?

Yes, I can prove it. Instead of spending the money on myself, I could be using it to lessen the starvation in or Africa, thereby depriving them of food.

I would like to ask how are you deciding what is a luxury? We all have different stations in life and we all should be faithful to these. That does not mean each person must live in a tent with only rags to wear.

a luxery is smothing we can live without. Toilet paper is a luxery. Could you elaborate or give a website descring the stations in life? Also are “stations in life” something taught by the Church? thanks​

I have an unrelated question. THe men and women who take vows of poverty, is their primary motivation to live like Jesus and his Apostles? Or are their reasons similar to mine?

Thanks,
villaneweva

 

[fix]

villaneweva:

Yes, I can prove it. Instead of spending the money on myself, I could be using it to lessen the starvation in or Africa, thereby depriving them of food.

It is not a zero sim game.

 

[wcknight]

villaneweva

One of the best sermons I ever heard basically said… we can’t save the whole world, so just save one… we can’t feed the whole world, so just feed one.

We are responsible for helping the poor, BUT we are not personally responsible for each and every one of the poor.

We should be responsible in how we spend our money or how much we speond on extravagances BUT we should not obsess over it. We can be frugal and thrifty for the most part, but we do not have to be fanatical about it.

IF I were to buy a very expensive car so I could no longer give to the poor that would be very sinful. But if I buy a family car because I need a vehicle to drive to work and to drive my family to where it needs to go, then that is a necessity. God does not condemn us for providing for our family or for our own needs.

We do have to support charities, we do have to feed the hungry, and clothe the naked. None of those responsibilities go away, but we also have to provide for our own well being.

If we stay away from the excess, and we continue to do what we can. That is all God asks of us.

Mother Theresa made a presentation in DC, and when asked by a young girl what she shoud do to help the poor, Mother Theresa said to her live your life in a good Christian manner, give to the poor, provide for your family.

Contrary to what one might have thought Mother Theresa recognized that not everyone is called to work in the streets of Calcutta. The missionaries need funding to continue their work. IF everyone goes off to be a missionary, there would be no funding to do the work that needs to be done.

Don’t give up your desire to help the poor. God loves you for that. IF we had a world of folks like you, there would be no poor. Just recognize that there are many ways to help the poor, sometimes it is just a matter of speaking out for them or making a donation now and then. wc

 

[wcknight]

If you want to start off in a very fundamental way, contact one of the missionary organizations that have an adopt a child or adopt a family program. Adopt one overseas child or one family. You can make a huge difference in one child or one families life.

I used to have a co-worker who once each year instead of exchanging gifts with his spouse, they ‘adoped’ another child. I think they were up to 5 or 6 when I first heard about them. It can become quite a financial burden.

My daughter talks about a group who call themselves ‘minimalists’. The idea is that they minimize the resources that they use to support themselve with in terms of food and necessities, (and I guess they donate the rest).

I don’t think we have to become minimalists to satisfy the responsibilities mentioned in scriptures. We do have to treat the poor with great charity, but how far we take that is an individual choice, and it is not always money that is required of us.

Sometimes it is just a kind word or warm greeting or just volunteering to help out in a soup kitchen or homeless shelter. The latter is one of the activities that I plan to do when I retire.

 

[wcknight]

Buying a computer:

In this day and age owning a computer is pretty much a necessity. Owning a very expensive computer is a luxury, and not a very wise decision, especially since the technology moves so fast and they quickly become outdated and cost much less in a very short time.

Buy a modestly priced machine and donate your old system. Someone will benefit from your old system and you can get caught up to date.

The OT basically tells us to donate 10% of our income to God. Of all the Christian groups only mormons even approach that amount. It’s a shame that most other Christian groups do not even come close to this. A mormon friend of mine donates 10% to his church and another 3% to the poor (and this is quite typical for most mormons, that is why their temples can be painted with 24K gold).

To do that right from this moment on, would put quite a dent in most peoples budget. You may want to try increasing your donations a bit at a time until you reach that.

wc

 

[JP2Admirer]

Matt 25 does a lot for the faith and works discussion.

Anyway, I thought I might point to Matt 19. Here Jesus says it is hard for a rich man to enter heaven, but all things are possible with the Father. He says “If you wish to be perfect, go sell all your possessions.” I think this means you can get to heaven even if you don’t sell all that you have.

I would argue that it is better if you relinquish your earthly possessions, but not necessary to gain eternal life.

Incidentally, I was taught in high school that the “eye of the needle” was a common term used for the doorway to Jerusalem through the walls of the city. Often when camels were overloaded with goods, they would require the removal of those goods to pass through the doorway. Maybe that is what Christ had in mind.

I think the problem with earthly treasure is that it removes the focus from God. Money becomes a god to those consumed by greed. That is why I think the affluent West is losing its faith. With money, people feel they don’t need God, since they can buy whatever they want. The strict teaching about monetary wealth I think coincides with human weakness for the base pleasures of this earth. When life is easy, God is not necessary.

I would say that subjectively people who are wealthy don’t need to worry about going to hell (if they live righteously), if they don’t forget God along the way through greed. However, to be perfect, they would have to renounce their wealth. Not many of us are perfect, in fact, I can only think of two people that are (and they’re both in heaven.) To make a long story short, be generous, love God and your neighbor, and heaven is attainable.

 

[Mamamull]

We adopt kids that qualify as “special needs” one medically handicapped and two that are “bi-racial”. Our newest son is five years old.

I may not be taking on Calcutta like Blessed Theresa of Calcutta, but I am doing good in my own neighborhood.

I don’t know that I will go to Hell for not caring for the poor, but maybe for my sinful nature that I have trouble overcoming.

 

[wcknight]

Mamamull

You’re giving from the heart, that’s all it takes to get to Heaven. I’m sure your kids love you and God loves you too !

 

[villaneweva]

hey guys, thanks for the repsonses

With your help, i’ve concluded that indulging in luxery (to an extent ) is good as long as you recognize that you are simply a steward of God’s treasure. Thanks for helping me realize this!

however, one thing I still wonder about is how we allocate our money. I think every one of us would give our money to a starving child if we saw him on the way to the supermarket, but why don’t we give money to the rest of the starving children in the world? Is it simply because of the distance?

Thnaks, I’m sorry if i seem stubborn, but this is something i really have to pound through my head

villaneweva

 

[Mamamull]

Villan.
My newest kid eats like a horse – he has grown three inches in seven months. Want to help me feed him? He has almost doubled my food bill as it was for the husband, myself and 6 yr old son – and the new son only weighs 45 pounds!

All donations would be gladly accepted.

 

[villaneweva]

however, one thing I still wonder about is how we allocate our money. I think every one of us would give our money to a starving child if we saw him on the way to the supermarket, but why don’t we give money to the rest of the starving children in the world? Is it simply because of the distance?

anyone?!?