Were all the apostles married?

[PRmerger]

An ordained laymen? Ordained to be what, is the question.

There is no such thing as an ordained layman.

That’s like saying: a married bachelor

 

[Peter_Plato]

There is no such thing as an ordained layman.

That’s like saying: a married bachelor

Here’s another point to ponder…

Eastern Rite bishops can be elected pope and, I think (though I may be wrong on this,) Eastern Rite bishops technically can be married although they are, in practice, chosen from monastic orders which means they are celibate and unmarried. However, it is technically possible for a married Eastern Rite bishop (should any exist) to be elected pope – which would mean a married man could, technically, become pope. Chances are, this would never actually happen, but there is nothing that precludes it as a matter of Canon Law.

Disclaimer: I haven’t fact-checked all of the above, but it is what I gather to be true from my reading. Feel free to challenge any of the points if you have access to information that puts any of it in doubt.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t have too much more to add to the discussion except possibly an excerpt from (THE STROMATA, 7:11): “They say, accordingly, that the blessed Peter, on seeing his wife led to death, rejoiced on account of her call and conveyance home, and called very encouragingly and comfortingly, addressing her by name,”

Where did you get this quote from?

Could you offer it to us online so we can all see it in its context?

Thanks.

If you got it from the library,and don’t have the book available, how do you quote it here?

 

[RyanBlack]

Here’s another point to ponder…

Eastern Rite bishops can be elected pope and, I think (though I may be wrong on this,) Eastern Rite bishops technically can be married although they are, in practice, chosen from monastic orders which means they are celibate and unmarried. However, it is technically possible for a married Eastern Rite bishop (should any exist) to be elected pope – which would mean a married man could, technically, become pope. Chances are, this would never actually happen, but there is nothing that precludes it as a matter of Canon Law.

Disclaimer: I haven’t fact-checked all of the above, but it is what I gather to be true from my reading. Feel free to challenge any of the points if you have access to information that puts any of it in doubt.

Eastern bishops are never married. They are always chosen from the celibate priesthood. It is no more a possibility for an Eastern Catholic bishop to be married than for a bishop in the Latin Church to be married.

 

[friardchips]

There is no such thing as an ordained layman.

That’s like saying: a married bachelor

I tend to think of deacons as still being laity. In the U.K they are married and take on some extra duties from the priest but their function is nowhere near anything like that of a priest.

The initial mistake was to say that a laymen could be made Pope. That is the error.

It is correct, as TMC said, as PR and Plato said, to say that a layman could be elected as Pope. But he would have to be ordained before becoming Pope.

This is a better answer.

 

[PRmerger]

I tend to think of deacons as still being laity.

And you would be wrong if you “tend to think of deacons as still being laity”.

That’s like someone saying, “I tend to think of squares as still being circles”.

I suppose you could “tend to” think whatever you like, but if you want to be consonant with reality, your tendencies to think should be conformed to what’s true.

And, a layman can become a pope. Just like a boy can become a pope.

Some things need to happen first (in the former, ordination, in the latter, maturation) before either of those things happen, but neither one is a false statement.

 

[Duane1966]

I don’t know that it is misleading, but that is how it works. In theory, you or I could be selected to be Pope. We would be made a bishop as part of the process of being made Pope. But I think it would still be fair to say that a layman was selected to be Pope.

You or I? Excellent! I can see it now. Pope Duane the First. Cannot wait to make some infallible teachings

 

[Duane1966]

Where did you get this quote from?

Could you offer it to us online so we can all see it in its context?

Thanks.

If you got it from the library,and don’t have the book available, how do you quote it here?

I have seen this quote from Catholic sources, online. Can post it if you want.

 

[friardchips]

And you would be wrong if you “tend to think of deacons as still being laity”.

That’s like someone saying, “I tend to think of squares as still being circles”.

Squircles do exist: in this country, as I said already, deacons are married people who do over and above what the laity do but generally are still very much part of the laity when all is said and done due to their marital state. An ordained deacon is nowhere near the role of priest. I’m sure they play a very valid role nevertheless. But then it seems I’m about the only one on this thread who seems to view the celibate life as something over and above the normal run of things and views it as particularly special (?)

I suppose you could “tend to” think whatever you like, but if you want to be consonant with reality, your tendencies to think should be conformed to what’s true.

And, a layman can become a pope. Just like a boy can become a pope.

Misleading and pointless then. It is a silly statement because obviously, if meant this way, a person could become Pope. So why say it in the first place! (Lurkers!), I cringe with you.

Some things need to happen first (in the former, ordination, in the latter, maturation) before either of those things happen, but neither one is a false statement.

So just a few missing details then. My point exactly. However, to say one can be elected while still a layman is quite something. And a surprise. Would you have any documents to prove this? p)

 

[PRmerger]

I have seen this quote from Catholic sources, online. Can post it if you want.

Yes, please. Along with the source, of course. And I’m not really asking for a blog which says that this is what was said. But an actual primary source.

Thanks.

 

[friardchips]

Yes, please. Along with the source, of course. And I’m not really asking for a blog which says that this is what was said. But an actual primary source.

Thanks.

And one that mentions the possibility for Popes to be selected when laymen, please?

(I just thought I might mention that I could walk down the road in a minute, just in case it is really relevant to anything, and that it is possible that one of the members of my parish could become a priest ).

 

[PRmerger]

Squircles do exist:

It cannot be both a square and a circle at the same time.

Just like a deacon cannot be a member of the laity and the ordained at the same time.

in this country, as I said already, deacons are married people who do over and above what the laity do but generally are still very much part of the laity when all is said and done due to their marital state.

An ordained deacon is nowhere near the role of priest. I’m sure they play a very valid role nevertheless.

You are very Catholic when you say this.

But then it seems I’m about the only one on this thread who seems to view the celibate life as something over and above the normal run of things and views it as particularly special (?)

Every single Catholic that’s posted on this thread has been quite clear that celibacy is “something over and above the normal run of things.”

So you’re in good company with good Catholics when you profess that, chips.

Misleading and pointless then.

Not at all pointless. You have become educated now about this, and next time an uninformed person says, “No layman can be elected to the papacy!” you can now correct him

Just like you can now correct someone who uses the term “Roman Catholic Church” when they actually mean the “Catholic Church”.

The dialogue we had in the past was not pointless.

#educationeducationeducation

 

[PRmerger]

Not at all pointless. You have become educated now about this, and next time an uninformed person says, “No layman can be elected to the papacy!” you can now correct him

Oh, and friardchips, you can add some “oomph” to your correction of the uninformed person by saying, “Did you know that 3 laymen have actually been elected to the papacy?!!!”

Benedict VIII (1012 - 24); John XIX (1024 - 32); and Benedict IX (1032 - 44; 1045; 1047 - 48)

diocesepvd.org/conclave-questions-and-answers/

Technically, any baptized Catholic man who is not a heretic, or in schism, or notorious for simony can be elected pope. The last man who was not a bishop to be elected pope was Cardinal Mauro Alberto Cappellari, a Camaldolese monk and prefect of the former Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, who was elected in 1831 and took the name Gregory XVI. The last non-cardinal to be elected pope was in 1378 when the Archbishop of Bari became Pope Urban VI. During a period of intense rivalry between Roman noble families, at least three laymen were elected pope:

 

[Duane1966]

Yes, please. Along with the source, of course. And I’m not really asking for a blog which says that this is what was said. But an actual primary source.

Thanks.

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (died around 215 AD)

(THE STROMATA, 7:11)

So then he undergoes toils, and trials, and afflictions, not as those among the philosophers who are endowed with manliness, in the hope of present troubles ceasing, and of sharing again in what is pleasant; but knowledge has inspired him with the firmest persuasion of receiving the hopes of the future.

Wherefore he contemns not alone the pains of this world, but all its pleasures.
**They say, accordingly, that the blessed Peter, on seeing his wife led to death, rejoiced on account of her call and conveyance home, and called very encouragingly and comfortingly, addressing her by name, Remember the Lord. Such was the marriage of the blessed and their perfect disposition towards those dearest to them.**

Thus also the apostle says, that he who marries should be as though he married not, and deem his marriage free of inordinate affection, and inseparable from love to the Lord; to which the true husband exhorted his wife to cling on her departure out of this life to the Lord.

Was not then faith in the hope after death conspicuous in the case of those who gave thanks to God even in the very extremities of their punishments? For firm, in my opinion, was the faith they possessed, which was followed by works of faith.

You can look it up on New Advent. Just type Stromata 7:11 on google search.

By the way, most of the other ECF held that St. Peter was either a widower, and if he wasn’t, that he practiced continence. Some felt that the tradition of continence came from St. Peter himself, and Jesus, and I can quote those sources also, if you like. That is why I cannot be pope.

 

[friardchips]

Oh, and friardchips, you can add some “oomph” to your correction of the uninformed person by saying, “Did you know that 3 laymen have actually been elected to the papacy?!!!”

Benedict VIII (1012 - 24); John XIX (1024 - 32); and Benedict IX (1032 - 44; 1045; 1047 - 48)

diocesepvd.org/conclave-questions-and-answers/

Technically, any baptized Catholic man who is not a heretic, or in schism, or notorious for simony can be elected pope. The last man who was not a bishop to be elected pope was Cardinal Mauro Alberto Cappellari, a Camaldolese monk and prefect of the former Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, who was elected in 1831 and took the name Gregory XVI. The last non-cardinal to be elected pope was in 1378 when the Archbishop of Bari became Pope Urban VI. During a period of intense rivalry between Roman noble families, at least three laymen were elected pope:

I like the way you noticed my “correction!” Thought it might have subtley drifted by without anyone noticing…but noooo. 'Twas but a dream.

Okay, but technically, were these examples simple laymen when chosen? Or were these examples like that of the Cardinal-made-Pope who had made religious vows? There is still no actual example of a simple layman of no extra religious vow other than his Catholic baptismal promises.

 

[PRmerger]

You can look it up on New Advent. Just type Stromata 7:11 on google search.

By the way, most of the other ECF held that St. Peter was either a widower, and if he wasn’t, that he practiced continence. Some felt that the tradition of continence came from St. Peter himself, and Jesus, and I can quote those sources also, if you like. That is why I cannot be pope.

 

[PRmerger]

I like the way you noticed my “correction!”

I noticed no correction. Sorry.

Okay, but technically, were these examples simple laymen when chosen? Or were these examples like that of the Cardinal-made-Pope who had made religious vows?

They were laymen.

There is still no actual example of a simple layman of no extra religious vow other than his Catholic baptismal promises.

There have been 3 examples just given to you.

And even if there weren’t a single example, the point remains: a layman can be elected to the papacy.

Now you know! And I hope you have the opportunity to correct someone of his ignorance on this matter in the near future!

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Those housekeepers were often the mother’s of the priest.

Okay, thanks! I have fallen way behind in this conversation.

 

[friardchips]

It cannot be both a square and a circle at the same time.

It has been proposed. There has been a thread on such things upon this very forum.

Just like a deacon cannot be a member of the laity and the ordained at the same time.

Nice!

You are very Catholic when you say this.

Every single Catholic that’s posted on this thread has been quite clear that celibacy is “something over and above the normal run of things.”

That’s a relief! (…and special and holy and sacred?!).

So you’re in good company with good Catholics when you profess that, chips.

Phew!

Not at all pointless. You have become educated now about this, and next time an uninformed person says, “No layman can be elected to the papacy!” you can now correct him

That a member of the laity could be elected as Pope when still a layman, yes, this is indeed educational; that laymen could one fine day become Pope, is bordering on the lines in which one might simply let the thought pass as never needing to be said.

Just like you can now correct someone who uses the term “Roman Catholic Church” when they actually mean the “Catholic Church”.

The dialogue we had in the past was not pointless.

#educationeducationeducation

I always mean Roman Catholic when I say it. Because many on here were not aware that it is more than liturgical rite that varies between the ‘Churches’. And because I know that St. Peter went to Rome, still, I hold to the Latin Church being the purest line of Christianity, though I appreciate that other Catholic Churches are also Catholic (again, thank you for that ), as the devotions and other elements are what I consider to be the whole truth and consists of the best ways to express our faith! Yet, I now know the names of many Catholic “Churches” who all are in communion with Rome and the Pope, which is good to know, and will continue to decipher between when it is a good time to use the term Catholic and when to add Roman at the beginning. They are indeed our sister Churches and we are one (I hope).

 

[Lily_Bernans]

It cannot be both a square and a circle at the same time.

Just like a deacon cannot be a member of the laity and the ordained at the same time.

http://media.tumblr.com/720115e79f48aae19bc1b61e230491c3/tumblr_inline_mvvkfg7c8E1r79k32.gif

You are very Catholic when you say this.

Every single Catholic that’s posted on this thread has been quite clear that celibacy is “something over and above the normal run of things.”

So you’re in good company with good Catholics when you profess that, chips.

Not at all pointless. You have become educated now about this, and next time an uninformed person says, “No layman can be elected to the papacy!” you can now correct him

Just like you can now correct someone who uses the term “Roman Catholic Church” when they actually mean the “Catholic Church”.

The dialogue we had in the past was not pointless.

#educationeducationeducation

I never thought Id see a photo of Mark Henry here! LOL Yes, the thread is educational.