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MilesVitae
Guest
I was wondering, were any of the Eastern Catholic Rites perpetually in union with Rome (as opposed to those who went into schism and then returned to union with Rome).
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ThatOneGuy92
Guest
There have been various claims made about this. For example, the first one that comes to mind are the Maronites, who claim to have remained in Communion with Rome despite geographical isolation.
However, I think that there will not be a clear answer to this question. Church history is possibly one of the most chaotic of all. Churches were in and out of Communion all the time. I can think of an instance where, after the Council of Chalcedon, many of the Churches remained in Communion with those who rejected Chalcedon. Eventually the bigger players “officially” left Communion with the non-Chalcedonians. However, many littler churches (perhaps on a parish level, or in certain localities) still Communed with non-Chalcedonians for years more.
Another good example of this would be the so-called “Great Schism of 1054”. We know that this is just a convenient date for historians, and that Communion was severed later. However, even after the West and East drifted apart and officially were out of Communion, there were still instances of Communion between the two up into the 13th century.
The point of all these being that it would seem that, at some point or another, everyone was out of Communion with everyone else. Thus, I’m not sure your question of “has anyone remained in perpetual union with Rome” can be answered with any 100% certainty.
However, I think that there will not be a clear answer to this question. Church history is possibly one of the most chaotic of all. Churches were in and out of Communion all the time. I can think of an instance where, after the Council of Chalcedon, many of the Churches remained in Communion with those who rejected Chalcedon. Eventually the bigger players “officially” left Communion with the non-Chalcedonians. However, many littler churches (perhaps on a parish level, or in certain localities) still Communed with non-Chalcedonians for years more.
Another good example of this would be the so-called “Great Schism of 1054”. We know that this is just a convenient date for historians, and that Communion was severed later. However, even after the West and East drifted apart and officially were out of Communion, there were still instances of Communion between the two up into the 13th century.
The point of all these being that it would seem that, at some point or another, everyone was out of Communion with everyone else. Thus, I’m not sure your question of “has anyone remained in perpetual union with Rome” can be answered with any 100% certainty.
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
Eastern Catholic churches; it’s churches not rites (but that’s another discussion). I believe the Italo-Albanian Catholic and the Maronite churches have never been separated from the Holy See.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
I understand your question as asked in your post and I will let others respond to it but…
Your thread title is a bit disrespectful. I believe that the Orthodox view themselves as being faithful.
One other error is that Rites are not individuals in themselves but are rather something that a Church belongs to. So rather than saying “Eastern Catholic Rites” you should say “Eastern Catholic Churches”.
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MilesVitae
Guest
My bad - thanks for the correction.
How can that be? The Orthodox do not submit to Rome - am I misunderstanding your comment?
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MisterCorduroy
Guest
The Melkites never participated in the schism, in fact, the Melkite Patriarch Peter III of Antioch rejected the quarrel. They also did not break Communion with Constantinople, but due to geography they lost connection with Rome. When the Patriarch of Antioch and majority of bishops decided to re-establish their connection and actively commune with Rome, the Greeks set up their own Patriarch and the Antiochian Orthodox Church was created in 1729.
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Formosus
Guest
Some will say that the Maronite Church never left communion with Rome, but we can never really know the entirety of their history since the Jesuit order happened to burn most of their books and documents.
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dcointin
Guest
Submission to authority as faithfulness is Islam, not Christianity.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
They will say that they are faithful to Christ.
There are also many Eastern Catholics who would say that the Great Schism was the two Churches, East and West, breaking from each other rather than the East breaking from the West.
The language of “perpetual faithful” to the Western Church looks like Roman Triumphalism.
I just think this is a much better way to put this question with out alienating a whole group of Christians.
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MilesVitae
Guest
If an authority is established by Christ, than my faithfulness to Christ entails submission to that authority.
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5Loaves
Guest
We’ve been taught that also our Russian Church made no formal break.
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Aramis
Guest
The Maronites were out of contact for over 3 centuries.
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
Yes they were but wasn’t that because of historical circumstances rather than a rejection of Rome. I believe the Maronites claim they were always loyal to Rome. I don’t believe they are a group that broke away from an Eastern Orthodox or Oriental church to come back in to communion with the Holy See.
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ThatOneGuy92
Guest
The whole issue of the Maronites is confusing. They were isolated for at least 3 centuries, and they don’t truly have any parallel Church with which to compare them (though their Liturgy is related to, I think, the West Syriac traditions). There have been claims of heresy on a variety of sides, and many of their records and histories were destroyed over time. Thus, I don’t think we’ll ever truly know, barring a revelation from God Himself.
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Vico
Guest
There was isolation of the Maronites (pro Chalcedon), also in the same areas were Melkites (pro Chalcedon, Constantinople).
The Church of Antioch split a few ways:
- Armenian - Armenian Orthodox, Armenian Catholic
- East Syriac - Assyrian Church of the East, Syro-Malabar Orthodox, Chaldean Catholic, Syro-Malabar Catholic
- West Syriac - Maronite Catholic, Greek Melkite, Syrian Orthodox, Syro-Malankar Orthodox, Antiochene Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Syro Malankar Catholic
- Byzantium - Italo-Albanian, all other Byzantine Orthodox and Catholic
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Hesychios
Guest
Hi Matthew,
What historical circumstances could cause them to lose contact with Rome when their neighbors in the next villages over on either side did not?
No one believes that they broke with their Eastern Catholic neighbors or Oriental Orthodox neighbors to ‘come back’ in to communion with the Holy See. It has never been proposed as far as I can tell.
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hazcompat
Guest
The garment of Our Lord Jesus Christ CAN NOT be torn. Folded maybe?
peace
peace
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Vico
Guest
Beginning with St. Maron in 452, Maronites affirmed union in 1182, which was after enduring the attacks of Monophysites since 517 and the Muslim caliphate since 632. They were not independent until routing of Justinian II in 684.
451 Council of Chalcedon
452 Bet Moroon built
452 (till 938) Persecution of Maronites
517 Maronite plea for help to Pope Hormizdes
517-540 Maronite refuge in the mountains of Lebanon
553 Council of Constantinople II
632 Arabia conquered by Islam
681 Council of Constantinople III
685 Maronite Patriarch (the first)
694 Byzantine emperor destroys Bet Maroon
787 Council of Nicea II
869 Council of Constantinople IV (first)
879 Council of Constantinople IV (second)
910 (till 1009) Christian Persecution in Syria and Palestine
938 Bet Moroon destroyed, migrations to Mountains of Lebanon (till 969)
1048 Druze religion
1099 Crusades in Lebanon-Jerusalem
1100 First Maronite contact with Rome
1182 All Maronites affirmed union with Rome
maronite-heritage.com/About%20us.php
451 Council of Chalcedon
452 Bet Moroon built
452 (till 938) Persecution of Maronites
517 Maronite plea for help to Pope Hormizdes
517-540 Maronite refuge in the mountains of Lebanon
553 Council of Constantinople II
632 Arabia conquered by Islam
681 Council of Constantinople III
685 Maronite Patriarch (the first)
694 Byzantine emperor destroys Bet Maroon
787 Council of Nicea II
869 Council of Constantinople IV (first)
879 Council of Constantinople IV (second)
910 (till 1009) Christian Persecution in Syria and Palestine
938 Bet Moroon destroyed, migrations to Mountains of Lebanon (till 969)
1048 Druze religion
1099 Crusades in Lebanon-Jerusalem
1100 First Maronite contact with Rome
1182 All Maronites affirmed union with Rome
maronite-heritage.com/About%20us.php
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ThatOneGuy92
Guest
Ain’t history so simple?!
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Hesychios
Guest
Not all.
The Maronites of Cyprus came to the island in three waves of migration spanning centuries. The island state was controled by Roman Catholics from the lifetime of king Richard the Lionheart of England (1192AD).
The Maronites on Cyprus came into communion with Rome 250 years later, in 1445AD.
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