Were any Founding Fathers atheists?

[Leela]

Deism is a form of theism.

Darwinism has nothing to do with theism or atheism. See this thread if you are confused.

I don’t think I’ll be reading a whole other thread. It is my understanding that theists believe in a personal God, while Deists may or may not believe in a personal God. I’ll let you correct me if I am wrong. The god of the Founding Fathers was interchangeable with Nature. I doubt anyone would seek any personal relationship with Nature. The Founding Father’s interest in Nature and a Creator as an explanation for the appearance of design in nature is not surprising since they did not have the benefit of Darwin’s great insight. Without an explanation for evolution it doesn’t surprise me at all that while these Enlightenment thinkers rejected an interventionist personal God, they would have seen no alternative but a Deist clockmaker to make sense of the appearance of design in nature.

But it is clear that the Founding Father’s were not atheists, so if anyone had ever claimed they were, this thread would have put that person in his or her place for sure. Did anyone ever make such a claim? What I always hear is the myth that our government was built on Christianity, which is clearly false. The impression I get from the new testament is that a government based on Christianity looks a lot like Communism:

“All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need” (Acts 2:44-45)

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Atheist 1

*What “atheist websites” claim that all the Founders were atheists? *

I didn’t say they made that claim. I said you’d be left with the impression, based on the numbers of quotes slamming traditional Christianity, that the atheists were claiming the Founders to be on their side … when in fact we cannot find one Founder who was an atheist and plenty of Founders who repudiated atheism, including Jefferson and Paine…

Go to any atheist website and see how often Jefferson, Paine and others are quoted. You may not see those quotes on every home page, but you will see them in abundance somewhere at the website.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Leela

*What I always hear is the myth that our government was built on Christianity, which is clearly false. *

On what grounds is it clearly false? It certainly wasn’t false to John Adams.

“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.” [June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]

Separation of Church and State was not an attack on religion, but an attack on any one religion lording it over the others, as in England and other European states at that time.

See other quotes from the Founders in post # 92.

You’ll find the claim at an atheist website that many founders were atheists here, huppi.com/kangaroo/L-christianrepublic.htm and also the implication that many founders were allied with atheists because they were Deists. Not so. The Deists believed in God, and their God was not nature itself, unless you can prove that by quotations, which I don’t think you can. Not a single atheist can be found among the Founders. Other atheist websites pull the same rabbit out of their hat, but I haven’t the time or inclination to search them out for you. Might be an interesting project if you are really concerned about such shenanigans.

*The impression I get from the new testament is that a government based on Christianity looks a lot like Communism:

“All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need” (Acts 2:44-45)*

Yes, a good argument for voluntary giving and living in a closely bound Christian community (even monastery), but not an argument for obligatory and government enforced seizing of tax dollars. This debate belongs in another thread.

 

[atheist1]

Atheist 1

*What “atheist websites” claim that all the Founders were atheists? *

I didn’t say they made that claim. I said you’d be left with the impression, based on the numbers of quotes slamming traditional Christianity, that the atheists were claiming the Founders to be on their side … when in fact we cannot find one Founder who was an atheist and plenty of Founders who repudiated atheism, including Jefferson and Paine…

Go to any atheist website and see how often Jefferson, Paine and others are quoted. You may not see those quotes on every home page, but you will see them in abundance somewhere at the website.

Jefferson and Paine are often quoted and there is quite a bit of discussion as to whether or not Paine was actually an atheist but that is a far, far cry from any site that I’ve seen attempting to give someone the impression that all the founders were atheists.

 

[Leela]

Leela

*What I always hear is the myth that our government was built on Christianity, which is clearly false. *

On what grounds is it clearly false? It certainly wasn’t false to John Adams.

“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.” [June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]

But he also says this:

“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

*The impression I get from the new testament is that a government based on Christianity looks a lot like Communism:

“All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need” (Acts 2:44-45)*

Yes, a good argument for voluntary giving and living in a closely bound Christian community (even monastery), but not an argument for obligatory and government enforced seizing of tax dollars. This debate belongs in another thread.

It is interesting to me that you have repeatedly made the claim that the US is founded on Christian principles. but you have also on multiple occasions such as this expressed disinterest in looking into what these uniquely “Christian principles” principles may be.

At any rate, people have already listed so many quotes of the Founding Fathers where they express extreme hostility toward Christianity. So your claim sounds absurd. You are going to have to explain what sort of government is supported by Christianity. Here is the sort I expect:

32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

That doesn’t sound anything like the US Constitution to me.

Also, some more from John Adams:
“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.”

“The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?” etter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?” letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

“God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.” “this awful blashpemy” that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardi

“Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it.” letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Jefferson and Paine are often quoted and there is quite a bit of discussion as to whether or not Paine was actually an atheist but that is a far, far cry from any site that I’ve seen attempting to give someone the impression that all the founders were atheists.

Let’s face it, none of the atheists websites admit that none of the Founders were atheists. They want to give you the opposite impression, that the Founders were hardly Christians, even when they can’t deliver the goods.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Leela,

“The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?” etter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

You are doing the same thing they do at the atheist websites. You patch together a lot of quotations (such as the ones above) to show that some of the Founders opposed and hated the Catholic Church and its teachings. But you cannot show that these same Founders were not religious men in their own right. In varying degrees they admired the teachings of Christ and followed them. Again, post # 92. Do you think Adams was insincere in his letter to Jefferson when he said “The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…."

In the Tripoli Treaty Adams did not repudiate Christianity. He merely observed that there was no official Christian religion attached to the State as there was during the Crusades. Consider that he was dealing with Islamic enemies, and that the treaty had to be phrased in such a way as to avoid any sense that we Americans were engaged in a new Christian Crusade against Islam. Such language as this pacified the other side and made them feel the more able to save face by signing such a treaty. Surely you can see that this is the same problem we still face with Islam, the concern to avoid any message sent to the Muslim countries that would give them cause to justify a holy war against the West because it is filled with infidels (Christians).

In fact, I would think the greater danger at present would be to give Islam a sense that we are not even Christian. Surely for a Muslim the only thing that could be worse than being an infidel would be to worship Nogod.

You are going to have to explain what sort of government is supported by Christianity. Here is the sort I expect:

“32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.”

On the contrary, “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.” Other than that, the Gospels say nothing about which form of government is best. What the Gospels do insist upon is belief in God, love of God, and love of neighbor. If these conditions prevail in the human heart, no matter what form of government exists, men will behave decently toward each other. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Emphatically not, “Do it to others before they do it to you.”

The principles of the Declaration and the Constitution are so designed as to avoid the tyranny and exploitation of the few over the many. This is certainly a Christian principle. There were no atheists among the Founders. You could say Christian principles are taught in other religions. I would agree, depending on the religion. But you can’t say it’s a principle taught by atheism, because atheism as such teaches nothing more than that God does not exist. And the conduct of atheist tyrants in the 20th century is what we should fear most from the so-called “enlightened” and liberating principle of that creed. There was under those tyrannies of Stalin and Hitler no love of God and certainly no love of the people judging by the numbers of Jews and Christians persecuted for their faith … and by the number of Chinese who did not believe in the atheist Mao, a god unto himself.

 

[atheist1]

They want to give you the opposite impression, that the Founders were hardly Christians, even when they can’t deliver the goods.

I don’t know who you would include in your list as a “Founder” and where you would draw the line in the sand for establishing who is a Chrisitian and who was so influenced by the Enlightenment that they were no longer Christian. To be sure, folks such as Franklin, Jefferson, and Paine would hardly be considered as an orthodox Christian.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

*To be sure, folks such as Franklin, Jefferson, and Paine would hardly be considered as an orthodox Christian. *

Franklin and Jefferson I would claim as liberal Christians because they would not abandon the essential truths taught by Christ and which are agreed to by all Christians (liberal and orthodox), including the belief in immortality and the need to worship (even if only at their own personal altar). Paine I would claim only as a Deist. He is mistakenly called an atheist by many, both in his age and ours, but his essay against atheism, noted above, proves otherwise. All three repudiated atheism. Franklin tried without success to persuade Paine not to publish The Age of Reason because it would be an insult to many Christians.

I don’t know who you would include in your list as a “Founder” and where you would draw the line in the sand for establishing who is a Chrisitian and who was so influenced by the Enlightenment that they were no longer Christian.

The religious affiliations of the founders (those who signed the Declaration and were present at the Constitutional Convention in 1776) are a matter of public record. See the posts on page 1 or 2 of this thread. Paine should be considered a Founder even though he did not sign either document.

They were not the only “founders.” Virtually all the leaders in all the colonies were from mainline Protestant denominations. Without their support neither the Declaration nor the Constitution would have been possible. Certainly the 1st Amendment to the Constitution was provided, among other concerns, to create a stumbling block to all future governments of the land that might seek to deprive citizens of their religious freedoms. At that time the only religion that anyone would have been concerned to protect was the Christian religion in all its various forms.

 

[David_Zampino]

*To be sure, folks such as Franklin, Jefferson, and Paine would hardly be considered as an orthodox Christian. *

Franklin and Jefferson I would claim as liberal Christians because they would not abandon the essential truths taught by Christ and which are agreed to by all Christians (liberal and orthodox), including the belief in immortality and the need to worship (even if only at their own personal altar). Paine I would claim only as a Deist. He is mistakenly called an atheist by many, both in his age and ours, but his essay against atheism, noted above, proves otherwise. All three repudiated atheism. Franklin tried without success to persuade Paine not to publish The Age of Reason because it would be an insult to many Christians.

Charlemange II – I’ve done my best – as a professional historian, and a convert to Catholicism – to try to cut you some slack – but in my opinion (both personal and professional) you’re way out of you’re depth here.

Please define: “Liberal Christian”.

Jefferson was certainly “heterodox” – AT BEST!!! Did he accept Nicaea? The Creed? The Definitions of Chalcedon??? Not very likely!!!

Franklin – on his deathbed – questioned the divinity of Jesus.

Nothing personal here – but it seems to me that you’re trying to fight a battle that doesn’t exist!

Why?

You’re right – none (at least as best as we can ascribe) of the Founders were atheists (at least not in the classic sense).

Why push the point?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Charlemange II – I’ve done my best – as a professional historian, and a convert to Catholicism – to try to cut you some slack – but in my opinion (both personal and professional) you’re way out of you’re depth here.

I’m not a liberal Christian by a long shot, but I believe that liberal Christians share somewhat in the heritage of Christ. Not believing in his divinity means they are not orthodox, but it does not mean that they have not grasped the principles he taught of loving God and one’s neighbor, of recognizing sin and the need to be reconciled with God and with each other, of looking forward to the reward for a life well lived in obedience to the commandments, of following the injunctions in Matthew 25, etc.

I believe the Founders were well disposed to follow the teachings of Christ even aside from orthodoxy.

Perhaps you think Christians outside the Catholic faith cannot be saved? Let me know. This could be the start of another thread.

I’m cutting you lots of slack … mainly because, like me, you are a convert.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

*You’re right – none (at least as best as we can ascribe) of the Founders were atheists (at least not in the classic sense).

Why push the point? *

Because it needs to be pushed … a matter of correcting the record. Apparently you haven’t visited atheist websites where one is supposed to believe that many of the Founders had more in common with atheism than with Christianity.

Why does this bother you? As far as I’m concerned, the matter has been settled and I have no objection to closing the thread. But if people continue to post, I’m willing to answer.

Again, why does this bother you?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

David,

If you don’t get more action here, it’s because we’ve pretty much covered this from another angle. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=329569

If you don’t like the other angle, you need to say something in this forum that will stimulate a reaction in the direction you want to go. You’ve already pointed to that article in the other thread. It didn’t generate much discussion there either, though I found it rather interesting and helpful as a matter of setting the record straight on the religious affiliation of the founders.

 

[David_Zampino]

I’m not a liberal Christian by a long shot, but I believe that liberal Christians share somewhat in the heritage of Christ. Not believing in his divinity means they are not orthodox, but it does not mean that they have not grasped the principles he taught of loving God and one’s neighbor, of recognizing sin and the need to be reconciled with God and with each other, of looking forward to the reward for a life well lived in obedience to the commandments, of following the injunctions in Matthew 25, etc.

There is a decided difference between a “liberal Christian” and someone who is not a Christian at all. An individual who rejects the deity of Christ is not a “Christian” even in a “liberal” sense of the word. CS Lewis, in his preface to Mere Christianity describes this quite well.

That does not mean that such a person is a “bad” person, nor does it mean that such a person does not try to follow the moral teachings of Jesus. But believing in Jesus as as great moral teacher – which many of the Founders – even the heterodox ones – did does not make them “Christians” in any meaningful sense of the word.

I believe the Founders were well disposed to follow the teachings of Christ even aside from orthodoxy.

I don’t disagree with you. But that doesn’t make them all Christians.

Perhaps you think Christians outside the Catholic faith cannot be saved? Let me know. This could be the start of another thread.

???

Nowhere have I ever suggested such a thing! Nor do I believe it. Nor does the Church teach it. I certainly don’t know where you got that idea from my posts!

Blessings,

 

[Charlemagne_II]

But believing in Jesus as as great moral teacher – which many of the Founders – even the heterodox ones – did does not make them “Christians” in any meaningful sense of the word.

I disagree. Aquinas did not buy everything from Aristotle, but he was Aristotelian in a meaningful sense of the word. I am not a Jew, but, accepting the Old Testament, I am Jewish in a meaningful sense of the word.

I think you do a disservice to some of the Founders by implying that because they opposed orthodoxy they were not Christian (influenced by the teachings of Christ) in a meaningful sense of the word.

 

[Contarini]

I think you do a disservice to some of the Founders by implying that because they opposed orthodoxy they were not Christian (influenced by the teachings of Christ) in a meaningful sense of the word.

The question here is what we mean by Christian. If a Christian is anyone influenced by the teachings of Christ, is a pagan anyone influenced by classical Greece and Rome? Is a Jew anyone influenced by the New Testament?

There’s no doubt that the Founding Fathers were influenced by the traditions of Christian culture. But for that matter, so are modern atheists such as Dawkins and Hitchens, reluctant as they may be to admit it. So I don’t think you have much of a case there.

A much stronger case can be made that the Founding Fathers were Christians because they generally self-identified as Christians. Of course, one has to ask whether you extend the same generosity to contemporaries who self-identify as Christians.

Let’s put it this way: is President Obama a Christian? If he isn’t, then most of the Founding Fathers weren’t.

Edwin

 

[tomarin]

Let’s put it this way: is President Obama a Christian? If he isn’t, then most of the Founding Fathers weren’t.

What say you, Charlemagne? Is Obama a Christian?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

*What say you, Charlemagne? Is Obama a Christian? *

If he is deeply influenced by the Old Testament and the New Testament, I would say he is, to varying degrees, both Jewish and Christian, as I am, in varying degrees, both Jewish and Christian. How about you?

But if you want a better answer, shouldn’t you ask Obama?

The point is that if the founding Fathers were Confucian, or Buddhist, or advocates of the myriad of Indian religions, would we have a Constitution? The Magna Carta was created by Catholics fighting among themselves in England. Had they been Vikings instead of Catholics, would a Magna Carta have been possible? Read the history of England. The Magna Carta was the first great movement in the Middle Ages toward parliamentary law, and it was shepherded into existence by Archbishop Stephen Langton, whom the tyrant King John hated for his efforts.

 

[David_Zampino]

A couple of points:

Edwin brings up the issue of “self-identification” which is a good one. Even most of the “heterodox” of the Fathers would have “self-identified” as Christian.

HOWEVER . . .

Is “self-identification” enough?

Throughout the years, many people have “self-identified” as Christian – who were not, in any meaningful sense of the word.

Mormons “self-identify” as Christians. Most of Christianity (Catholic OR Protestant) would not accept the legitimacy of that “self-identification”.

Jehovah’s Witnesses “self-identify” as Christians. Christian Scientists “self-identify” as Christians. Yet both groups deny key elements of Christian teaching.

Unfortunately, in all too many cases, “Christian” has become a generic title for someone who is not Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc., rather than someone who believes in the teachings of Christianity.

Edwin makes another good point when he argues that yes, the Fathers were influenced by the “traditions of Christian culture”. But such an influence does not necessarily a Christian make.

A Christian is not necessarily someone who is influenced by Christian culture.

A Christian is not necessarily someone who believes and tries to follow the moral teachings of Jesus.

A Christian is someone who accepts the basic tenants of the Christian faith – tenants which include belief in the Trinity and in the divinity of Jesus. Someone, even if he happens to be a Founding Father, who denies the Trinity or denies the divinity of Jesus, is not a Christian. He may be a good person. He may respect the moral teachings of Jesus. But he is not a Christian in any meaningful sense of the word.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

David,

I’m in agreement with much of what you and Edwin say. I never meant to give the impression that I regarded all the founders as baptized practicing Christians in the traditional sense of the word. But they were steeped in a Christian culture that influenced their thinking to one degree or another. They certainly were not favorable to Catholicism for the most part.

How many more concessions you need, I don’t know.

That the Constitution rose out of an essentially Christian culture, and it would not have stood a chance at all without the approval of that culture, you must accept as a given.

Unless you want to argue that most of the Protestants in that culture were deists. Hardly probable.