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crowonsnow
Guest
Ditto.
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a_priori
Guest
This is great. We’re making progress. Since we stipulated that the Constitution didn’t come out of a vacuum, can you explain exactly what concepts and principles actually did inform its creation? References would be useful as well.
Now you’re talkin’.
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crowonsnow
Guest
Just to know beyond question that this most important of governing documents is free of religious superstition, centuries old and written by the most brilliant men of the age I personally find incredibly wonderful, maybe even stunning.
Regardless of these men’s religious leanings it certainly gives me great faith in the human future.
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1holycatholic
Guest
The Constitution of the United States of America:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
From the dictionary on my laptop:
blessing |ˈblesi ng |
noun [in sing. ]
God’s favor and protection : may God continue to give us his blessing.
ordain |ôrˈdān|
verb trans. ]
1 make (someone) a priest or minister; confer holy orders on.
2 order or decree (something) officially : equal punishment was ordained for the two crimes.
• (esp. of God or fate) prescribe; determine (something) : the path ordained by God.google.com/search?&q=blessings+site:constitution.org
:coffeeread:
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
crowonsnow
Regardless of these men’s religious leanings it certainly gives me great faith in the human future.
I’m wondering what you see about the present situation in America that gives you “great faith in the human future.”
It certainly can’t be killing the unborn, or marriage between people of the same sex.
There is no human future in either case.
Regardless of these men’s religious leanings it certainly gives me great faith in the human future.
I’m wondering what you see about the present situation in America that gives you “great faith in the human future.”
It certainly can’t be killing the unborn, or marriage between people of the same sex.
There is no human future in either case.
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Thank you for your response.
First of all, that’s just not true:
I did take that into account, as you can see. But the influence of Christianity was just one of many factors that comprised their beliefs - their liberal, republican political philosophy on which the USA’s founding principles are based.
Of course it doesn’t have to cite Scripture explicitly in order to be based on Christian principles, but the examples you used here reveal a very significant flaw in the way you’re looking at this, one which I think reveals the reason we disagree:
‘‘Love thy neighbor’’ is not a Christian principle because it is not unique to Christianity. As you know, the defining message of Christianity is not ‘‘love your neighbor’’ - nearly every religion teaches that, and every morally sane person already knew it way before Christ was even born.
The same goes for establishing justice and maintaining peace. There’s nothing distinctly Christian about these; Christianity definitely and necessarily includes them of course, but they are universal moral principles that Christians don’t have a monopoly on.
There are, of course, distinctly Christian moral principles - for example, ‘‘Love your enemy.’’ ‘‘Turn the other cheek.’’ But everyone already knows (s)he should love his/her neighbor.
If such things did count as Christian principles, I would certainly grant your conclusion that the USA is founded on Christian principles. But it’s a stretch to say that ‘‘justice’’ and ‘‘peace’’ are Christian principles - that to me implies an exclusivity which is not the case.
First, a quick reminder: ‘‘in harmony with’’ and ‘‘based on’’ are totally different things.
But more importantly, you go way too far here. Jefferson and some of the others may have spoken of themselves as Christians (at least at one point
), but they were not. Quoting the Bible does not make one a Christian. Remember these quotes from Thomas Jefferson, whom you claim as some kind of Christian?Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
(Remember what I said above how how ‘‘justice’’ and ‘‘peace’’ are not exclusively Christian?)
To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820
Those are radical claims that Jefferson makes, Charlemagne.
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
Definitely not a Christian in any meaningful sense. Period. As can be seen from this thread’s previous pages, similar quotes can be found for Madison, Franklin, etc.
I think John Adams was probably Christian. But this is all beside the point, in a way:
Whether the Founders were Christian and whether they founded this country on Christian principles are totally separate matters!
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Fone Bone
But more importantly, you go way too far here. Jefferson and some of the others may have spoken of themselves as Christians (at least at one point ), but they were not. Quoting the Bible does not make one a Christian. Remember these quotes from Thomas Jefferson, whom you claim as some kind of Christian?
You seem to be confusing Christians with Christ. Whatever may be said against Christians, and they certainly have not always behaved themselves, it wasn’t a criticism of what Christ taught that Jefferson opposed. Jefferson called himself a Christian. Are you going to say he was lying when he confessed the powerful influence of Christ on his life? Adams and Franklin constantly quoted the Bible. At some point you have to stop trying to explain that away! When Franklin was quoting the Bible at the Constitutional Convention and calling for clergy to pray regularly that the Constitution be rightly done, and the others agreeing to that, was that not a sign that the Founders were calling for heavenly assistance? As opposed to saying no prayers at all, which is doubtless what happened when Lenin and Stalin called for an atheistic Communist Constitution and wreaked misery for future generations of the Soviet Union?
What are you going to do with this quotation from Jefferson?
“To the corruption of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself; I am a Christian in the only sense he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”
Clearly, in Jefferson’s mind he was a Christian and strongly influenced by the teachings of Jesus.
And what are you going to do with the following quotes from John Adams?
“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]
“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in “the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” --October 11, 1798
“I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen.” December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
“Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell.” [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]
But more importantly, you go way too far here. Jefferson and some of the others may have spoken of themselves as Christians (at least at one point ), but they were not. Quoting the Bible does not make one a Christian. Remember these quotes from Thomas Jefferson, whom you claim as some kind of Christian?
You seem to be confusing Christians with Christ. Whatever may be said against Christians, and they certainly have not always behaved themselves, it wasn’t a criticism of what Christ taught that Jefferson opposed. Jefferson called himself a Christian. Are you going to say he was lying when he confessed the powerful influence of Christ on his life? Adams and Franklin constantly quoted the Bible. At some point you have to stop trying to explain that away! When Franklin was quoting the Bible at the Constitutional Convention and calling for clergy to pray regularly that the Constitution be rightly done, and the others agreeing to that, was that not a sign that the Founders were calling for heavenly assistance? As opposed to saying no prayers at all, which is doubtless what happened when Lenin and Stalin called for an atheistic Communist Constitution and wreaked misery for future generations of the Soviet Union?
What are you going to do with this quotation from Jefferson?
“To the corruption of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself; I am a Christian in the only sense he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others.”
Clearly, in Jefferson’s mind he was a Christian and strongly influenced by the teachings of Jesus.
And what are you going to do with the following quotes from John Adams?
“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.”
[June 28, 1813; Letter to Thomas Jefferson]
“We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in “the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
[letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress]
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” --October 11, 1798
“I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen.” December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
“Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell.” [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]
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Charlemagne_II
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kesa82
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I don’t know if any were or not.
But I don’t see many Colonial era topics on this forum so I can’t resist the slightly off-topic comment.
George Washington had an officers commission in the British Army, which means he swore an oath of loyalty to the crown. Under the laws of any regime, including this current one, his later actions can only be defined as treason.
Benjamin Franklin-- who was, by the way, once royal post master, the same loyalty oath thing – his actions in obtaining by objectionable means the private correspondence of Thomas Hutchinson and then having it published publicly --with unflattering and distorting editing and excisions that unquestionably amounted to libelous forgery, speaks volumes
about his character.
I could go on and on.
Thomas Paine was a drunk who was so beloved that nobody showed up for his funeral.
Samuel Adams had no apparent job but he somehow didn’t starve. Curious.
I don’t know if any of them were atheists, but given their resumes I don’t suppose it much matters.
But I don’t see many Colonial era topics on this forum so I can’t resist the slightly off-topic comment.
George Washington had an officers commission in the British Army, which means he swore an oath of loyalty to the crown. Under the laws of any regime, including this current one, his later actions can only be defined as treason.
Benjamin Franklin-- who was, by the way, once royal post master, the same loyalty oath thing – his actions in obtaining by objectionable means the private correspondence of Thomas Hutchinson and then having it published publicly --with unflattering and distorting editing and excisions that unquestionably amounted to libelous forgery, speaks volumes
about his character.
I could go on and on.
Thomas Paine was a drunk who was so beloved that nobody showed up for his funeral.
Samuel Adams had no apparent job but he somehow didn’t starve. Curious.
I don’t know if any of them were atheists, but given their resumes I don’t suppose it much matters.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
If it was possible to nominate just one atheist among the Founders, that person would have to be Thomas Paine. Indeed, many atheist websites claim him as one of their own, only because he attacks traditional religion. Yet they are wrong to do so, Paine was by his own claim a deist.
“But in Deism our reason and our belief become happily united. The wonderful structure of the universe, and everything we behold in the system of the creation, prove to us, far better than books can do, the existence of a God, and at the same time proclaim His attributes.”
I think that it has been established so far in this thread that no one has been able to find an atheist among the Founders, and the claim that deists are really another breed of atheists is false on the face of it.
“But in Deism our reason and our belief become happily united. The wonderful structure of the universe, and everything we behold in the system of the creation, prove to us, far better than books can do, the existence of a God, and at the same time proclaim His attributes.”
I think that it has been established so far in this thread that no one has been able to find an atheist among the Founders, and the claim that deists are really another breed of atheists is false on the face of it.
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Swan
Guest
I’m sure this has been pointed out before, but when reading the words of another, especially one we do not know personally, it is tempting but dangerous to assume that what they mean by certain words/phrases is the meaing we personally (or indeed, the “normally” accepted meaning) or those words/phrases. This is doubly true when we are speaking of historical documents, which much be read in the context of their time in order to be truly relevant.
An example is the word “god” - when used by Deists its meaning is very different from that of Chrisitans.
When Jefferson talks of Christianity, we cannot assume we know what he means. Even today the word means different things to different people. Some feel on Catholics are true Christians, for example (and some are on CAF). There are conservative Christians, liberal Chrisitans and everything in between. To assume that Jefferson, a man of the Enlightenment , was speaking of traditional, Orthodox Christianity is probably a bit of a stretch. You have to take into account what is know about him as well as the context of the times and events in which he lived. This is true of all history, of course, not just this instance.
An example is the word “god” - when used by Deists its meaning is very different from that of Chrisitans.
When Jefferson talks of Christianity, we cannot assume we know what he means. Even today the word means different things to different people. Some feel on Catholics are true Christians, for example (and some are on CAF). There are conservative Christians, liberal Chrisitans and everything in between. To assume that Jefferson, a man of the Enlightenment , was speaking of traditional, Orthodox Christianity is probably a bit of a stretch. You have to take into account what is know about him as well as the context of the times and events in which he lived. This is true of all history, of course, not just this instance.
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Leela
Guest
Note also that these Deists would refer to the Creator or to Nature as synonyms for God in their writings which gives us an idea of their conceptions of God.
The clearly believed in a designer, but then they did not have the benefit of Darwinism to explain the appreance of deisgn without a designer. I doubt that many of these Enlightenment thinkers would even have been Deists in light of Darwinism, but we’ll never know.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
Swan
An example is the word “god” - when used by Deists its meaning is very different from that of Chrisitans.
It’s true that the deist god is not the Christian God, but it’s even more true that the deist god is not Nogod. *All the Founders *paid tribute to the existence of a higher power, and there is not an atheist to be found among them. Not even Thomas Paine.
Yet, to look at atheist websites, you’d be left with the impression (if you didn’t know better) that all the Founders were atheists.
An example is the word “god” - when used by Deists its meaning is very different from that of Chrisitans.
It’s true that the deist god is not the Christian God, but it’s even more true that the deist god is not Nogod. *All the Founders *paid tribute to the existence of a higher power, and there is not an atheist to be found among them. Not even Thomas Paine.
Yet, to look at atheist websites, you’d be left with the impression (if you didn’t know better) that all the Founders were atheists.
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David_Zampino
Guest
Were any of the Founding Fathers atheists?
This was the original question at the beginning of the thread, and I think that historically the answer is clear: To the best of our knowledge, none of the Founding Fathers were atheists in the strict sense.
Competing definitions of “deism”, “theism”, etc. aren’t quite the point here.
Neither, for that matter, are questions concerning the “orthodoxy” or “heterodoxy” of the Founding Fathers.
Interesting questions, to be sure, and possibly worthy of their own thread.
But the question of atheism among the Founders is, I think answered.
This was the original question at the beginning of the thread, and I think that historically the answer is clear: To the best of our knowledge, none of the Founding Fathers were atheists in the strict sense.
Competing definitions of “deism”, “theism”, etc. aren’t quite the point here.
Neither, for that matter, are questions concerning the “orthodoxy” or “heterodoxy” of the Founding Fathers.
Interesting questions, to be sure, and possibly worthy of their own thread.
But the question of atheism among the Founders is, I think answered.
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David_Zampino
Guest
In another thread, several of us (from many different perspectives, to be sure) have been engaged in an interesting discussion concerning whether any of the Founding Fathers were atheists in their philosophical orientation.
Stemming from that question has been a number of interesting points concerning the faith (or lack thereof) and orthodoxy (or heterodoxy) of the Founders.
So in the hope of introducing further discussion, I introduce this link to an article on the subject found on adherents.com.
adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html
Stemming from that question has been a number of interesting points concerning the faith (or lack thereof) and orthodoxy (or heterodoxy) of the Founders.
So in the hope of introducing further discussion, I introduce this link to an article on the subject found on adherents.com.
adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
The Catholic Encyclopedia notes that “Atheism Refuted in a Discourse to Prove the Existence of God” by Thomas Paine was published in England in 1798. Does anybody know where a copy can be obtained?
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Leela
Guest
Another strawman defeated.
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Charlemagne_II
Guest
O.K. I found Thomas Paine’s essay refuting atheism here.
books.google.com/books?id=ADsPAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA238&lpg=RA1-PA238&dq=atheism+refuted+thomas+paine&source=bl&ots=Fk6ACqaYzn&sig=sq3HRZBNy5uLNTnMDVc7mRqpgns&hl=en&ei=6_jxSe_oOpL2MMmx2KgP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#PRA1-PA236,M1
V The Existence of God
Paine’s argument is essentially the same as Voltaire’s: that traditional religion is fantasy and that atheism fails to see the effects of God’s power in the natural world.
But you needn’t expect to see this essay quoted or even acknowledged to exist by most atheists.
books.google.com/books?id=ADsPAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA238&lpg=RA1-PA238&dq=atheism+refuted+thomas+paine&source=bl&ots=Fk6ACqaYzn&sig=sq3HRZBNy5uLNTnMDVc7mRqpgns&hl=en&ei=6_jxSe_oOpL2MMmx2KgP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#PRA1-PA236,M1
V The Existence of God
Paine’s argument is essentially the same as Voltaire’s: that traditional religion is fantasy and that atheism fails to see the effects of God’s power in the natural world.
But you needn’t expect to see this essay quoted or even acknowledged to exist by most atheists.
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1holycatholic
Guest
Deism is a form of theism.
Darwinism has nothing to do with theism or atheism. See this thread if you are confused.
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atheist1
Guest
What “atheist websites” claim that all the Founders were atheists?Yet, to look at atheist websites, you’d be left with the impression (if you didn’t know better) that all the Founders were atheists.
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