Were/are the Neanderthals saved?

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*Homo Neanderthalensis *is a different species from Homo sapiens sapiens. Neanderthal would be an *animal *not a human being. Therefore, a neanderthal would have a material soul, not an immortal soul.
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Adam and Eve, our first human parents, received an immortal soul. Animals do not have immortal souls. Therefore, whether neanderthals had education, prophets, bible, church, etc, are irrelevant because when they died their material soul ceased to exist.
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Any proof any of those two cases?
If you want to put forth the argument that neanderthals are *human *and are *descendants *of our first parents, then Church teaching would tell us that those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ **may **achieve salvation in a way known to God.
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You do have a point there which needs exploring.

The only question I have about your underlined words is, “know only to God”, of which I happen to believe, based on the bible, that God does give us an answer.

And that answer is what I am reserving till later.

It may come out in bits and pieces as you may read in my responses.

Blessings, AJ
 
pnewton said:
As this whole discussion is extreeeemely speculative, that will be true of all posts here. Everything is is assumptions.
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On the other hand, we know a lot about the biology of Neanderthals, because the fossil record is so rich with their remains. We know more about them materially than any other human ancestor or relative (I qualify that because I don’t think many paleontologists think they were a direct ancestor to modern humans). We just don’t know how human their behaviors or thought processes were, so it’s difficult to say what kind of spiritual life they had.
 
Gut feeling is irrelevant. It has no place in theology.
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Then, how about a notion? Have you ever had a doubt about something that is taught as gospel, or a question about a practice or anything of the like?

Well, then your gut is telling you something that perhaps you might want to research it out.

“gut feeling” is just words to express what your thoughts may be on any one given subject.

Blessings, AJ
 
jmcrae said:
If both the body and the soul die at the time of death, then what remains to be saved? :confused:
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You see, the big question you have asked is what Jesus is all about.

Adam and Eve were created in a lost state. How do I know?

It reads: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

You see the death sentence there?

Your question is addressing that very point.

Blessings, AJ
 
Why all of the guessing? We are on the interwebs. First, the identity of Adam and Eve, the ontological leap to man, cannot be answered by science.

Second, it is pure speculation and totally unprovable by science, that there were semi-humans or almost humans. So-called modern humans have Neanderthal DNA:

time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1987568,00.html

There was interbreeding.

God bless,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Why all of the guessing? We are on the interwebs. First, the identity of Adam and Eve, the ontological leap to man, cannot be answered by science.

Second, it is pure speculation and totally unprovable by science, that there were semi-humans or almost humans. So-called modern humans have Neanderthal DNA:

time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1987568,00.html

There was interbreeding.

God bless,
Ed
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Adam and Eve represent the start of humanity, would you say?

The flesh is the beginning of life on the earth, and who knows when it all started.

God wants us to understand that it was He who started it all in a story of the garden.

He does not specify anything other than it was He who created.

Now, there is another beginning, and this time this beginning does give a time.

This time given, is actual real beginning of life.

First the bible states the beginning of life in the flesh, then it states the beginning of life in the spirit.

Two beginnings. One by actual birth and the other by rebirth of the original in spirit.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (Flesh) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The second birth: Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So, getting back to the Neanderthals, are they covered?

Blessings, AJ
 
Adam and Eve, our first human parents, received an immortal soul. Animals do not have immortal souls. Therefore, whether neanderthals had education, prophets, bible, church, etc, are irrelevant because when they died their material soul ceased to exist.
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Wait a minute…Adam & Eve and Neanderthals? We believe in both creation and evolution?

I’m confused. Once upon a time it was either/or.
 
look3467 said:
Adam and Eve represent the start of humanity, would you say?

The flesh is the beginning of life on the earth, and who knows when it all started.

God wants us to understand that it was He who started it all in a story of the garden.

He does not specify anything other than it was He who created.

Now, there is another beginning, and this time this beginning does give a time.

This time given, is actual real beginning of life.

First the bible states the beginning of life in the flesh, then it states the beginning of life in the spirit.

Two beginnings. One by actual birth and the other by rebirth of the original in spirit.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (Flesh) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The second birth: Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So, getting back to the Neanderthals, are they covered?

Blessings, AJ
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The Neanderthals were human. They are covered.

God bless,
Ed
 
Originally Posted by MugenOne forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif

Below are my arguments that the Neanderthals and modern human are human.
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			*Scientists have traditionally considered modern man the only species to invent and use symbols.  Our cousins the Neanderthals  are thought to be savage and inferior and incapable of engaging in  symbolic activities, such as culture, imagination, painting, etc.   Recently, archeologists have discovered a handful of Neanderthals  artifacts like jewelries and painted horse bones dated 50,000 years  ago-10,000 years before modern humans made their way to Europe from  Africa. They also found natrojarosite on seashell, a red pigment which  was used as cosmetic in those days. If you look at ethnic groups from  Africa to Oceania, you will see examples of shells of these with natural  perforations used as ornaments. The one thing these findings make clear  is that Neanderthals were behaviorally modern. The groups we call Neanderthals  and modern human were not different species, therefore, I’m not  surprised that despite anatomical differences there are no intelligent ,  cultural, and social differences.
It’s crazy to say modern man got their symbolic activies from the local Neanderthals. Prior to entering Europe, modern humans did not have pierced or grooved mammal teeth and perforated bivalve shells. Once they entered and settled in Europe, they started having ornaments.
Traditionally, the first comparison of human and Neanderthal DNA showed that the two lineages diverged about 400,000 years ago and that Neanderthals may have had more DNA in common with chimps than with modern humans. However, latest analysis of the genetic variation showed that Neanderthal DNA is 99.7 percent identical to present-day human DNA, and 98.8 percent identical to chimpanzee DNA. Present-day human DNA is also 98.8 percent identical to chimpanzee.The Neanderthal DNA was removed from bones discovered at Vindija Cave in Croatia and prepared and sequenced by Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology.

Neanderthals=humans=/=chimpanzees

The comparison between Neanderthal and present-day human genomes has produced a catalog of genetic differences that allow the researchers to identify features that are unique to present-day humans. For example, the catalog includes differences in genes that code for functional elements, such as proteins, in which the Neanderthal versions are more like those of the chimpanzee than present-day humans. Some evolutionary changes were found in known genes involved in cognitive development, skull structure, energy metabolism, skin morphology and wound healing.

Anthropologists have used the fossil record to construct tree-shaped diagrams that show how the different branches of hominins, which includes humans and human ancestors, split off from one another. These diagrams tend to proceed in a straight line, from the tree-trunk base of a common ancestor through progressively smaller branches until the species of interest is reached. The Neanderthal data suggests evolution did not proceed in a straight line. Rather, evolution appears to be a messier process, with emerging species merging back into the lines from which they diverged.

Hence, as modern humans migrated out of the Middle East, interbred with Neanderthals, and dispersed across the globe, they carried Neanderthal DNA with them. The research team concluded that 2 percent of the genomes of present-day humans living from Europe to Asia – and as far into the Pacific Ocean as Papua New Guinea – was inherited from Neanderthals. The team did not find traces of Neanderthal DNA in the two present-day humans from Africa. Caucasian and Asian are descendants of the Neanderthals.

DNA evidence shows no difference between the Neanderthals and humans. As I posted before, it’s ridiculous to believe humans got their symbolic activities from the Neanderthals, an inferior species.

Remember the hoopla over the Javan Hobbit discovery? It turned out to be human.
The existence of a community of pygmy people in the Manggarai Regency of Flores, East Nusatenggara, is quite interesting but also quite mysterious. In the context of the archaeological discovery of the prehistoric human skeleton from Liang Bua in Flores — which has been published widely as belonging to the species named Homo floresiensis — the existence of the pygmy community in the village of Rampasasa, Waemulu region, Waeriri subdistrict, could possibly shatter all previous arguments.

Dr. Theodore Verhoeven, pastor at the Ledalero Maumere Seminary, conjectured in 1958 that these short people were a Proto-Negrito community. This term refers to the Schebesta study in the Andamans, remote areas of Borneo (Kalimantan), and also the southern Philippines.

According to Teuku Jacob, if the height of the Negritos is roughly between 155 and 163 cm, they would be called pygmoid. But if the Rampasasa people are true pygmies their height would have to be less than 145 cm for adult males and 135 cm for adult females. The maximum weight would be 40 kg for males and 30 kg for females.
 
In response to Ed’s, agreed.

In response to MugenOne, a very interesting read. I can learn from it and thank you.

I believe God didn’t want us to know many things, because then what would we have to wonder about.

So, He left it up to us to be entertained by all of it, each at its own time and space.

The key here in any of and all of it, is how with all our available knowledge, are we going to look at it.

I believe I understand how God looks at it because He gives clues in the bible.

But is interesting to see the many different views.

Blessings, AJ
 
look3467 said:
You see, the big question you have asked is what Jesus is all about.

Adam and Eve were created in a lost state. How do I know?

It reads: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

You see the death sentence there?
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This was after the Fall. Adam and Eve were created without sin. They became sinful when they sinned - that’s when they came under the death penalty - their bodies would die. They still had immortal souls, however.
 
jmcrae said:
This was after the Fall. Adam and Eve were created without sin. They became sinful when they sinned - that’s when they came under the death penalty - their bodies would die. They still had immortal souls, however.
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What does the fall consist of?

Consider for a minute a newborn baby; is the baby innocent, perfect and without sin?

What about when that baby grows up and becomes accountable for its actions, would you say that at that point, the child fell, as like in fallen, like as in Adam?

So what could a baby possibly sin with, since the baby has no knowledge of anything except the will to survive?

After all that, wouldn’t you say that we were born with the ability to learn knowledge of both good and evil, and at some point in time in our eating of it(Fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil), we would become independent individuals with our own mind to do whatever we desire? As gods…maybe?

That is what we need to look at and make a determination.

Blessings, AJ
 
look3467 said:
What does the fall consist of?
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Adam and Eve damaged the whole Creation and brought death and sin into the world.
Consider for a minute a newborn baby; is the baby innocent, perfect and without sin?
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No - the baby is born in the condition of Original Sin, which is not washed away until Baptism. Even after Baptism, he still experiences concupiscence, which is why he needs the rest of the Sacraments.

Adam and Eve were conceived without sin, and Mary (the second Eve) and Jesus (the second Adam) were conceived without sin, but the rest of us inherit Original Sin, which is essentially the lack of a Sacramental relationship with God.
 
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