Were/are the Neanderthals saved?

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Adam and Eve damaged the whole Creation and brought death and sin into the world.
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If Adam and Eve were after the Neanderthals, does that mean that the Neanderthals are saved?
No - the baby is born in the condition of Original Sin, which is not washed away until Baptism. Even after Baptism, he still experiences concupiscence, which is why he needs the rest of the Sacraments.
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A baby born in the flesh, is of the flesh death required as if born to die.

But then their is the spiritual side of the baby that is in question as to its innocence.

Because death is the wages for sin, then at death all sin is paid up.

In the case of the baby dying before the age of accountability, death still reigns in the flesh, but its spirit is saved, for the baby never committed any sin towards eternal death.

Eternal separation becomes effective, in my view, the day a child becomes its own person with wants and desires of its own choosing, apart from those of the parents and of God’s.

As in:Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

So, the term “original sin” is coined to mean the death sentence placed on mankind due to “ye shall be as gods”.

So the curse, death, spiritual death, not physical death, is what Jesus came to address.

Did He do it for all mankind, a few, only the good folk, or who?

Blessings, AJ
 
look3467 said:
Adam and Eve represent the start of humanity, would you say?

The flesh is the beginning of life on the earth, and who knows when it all started.

God wants us to understand that it was He who started it all in a story of the garden.

He does not specify anything other than it was He who created.

Now, there is another beginning, and this time this beginning does give a time.

This time given, is actual real beginning of life.

First the bible states the beginning of life in the flesh, then it states the beginning of life in the spirit.

Two beginnings. One by actual birth and the other by rebirth of the original in spirit.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (Flesh) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The second birth: Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

So, getting back to the Neanderthals, are they covered?

Blessings, AJ
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Your interpretation of this passage is very strange. Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. This water a man is to be born of is baptism. It makes no sense in your interpretation. Of course a man has to be born before he can receive the Spirit. If a man is not born how can the Spirit be given to him? Again, if one denies the Sacraments of the Church and her authority over them, one has to have nonsensical interpretations to justify his belief.
 
look3467 said:
No education, no prophets, no bible, no church; what about their souls?

Based on what you’ve learned about God, what is your gut feelings?

Should God only save us, who have the knowledge, the bible, the churches and are supposedly good people and all the rest, condemned to hell?

Would God create mankind, and then say…ah, I think I will now introduce myself in Jesus, and who ever believes in Him shall be saved, and who doesn’t, shall be condemned forever, completely forgetting the Neanderthals and the like?

Lucky you and lucky me, we have been born at the right time, otherwise, as an Neanderthals, we’d be out of luck.

So, is God merciful, to only the righteous? How about the unrighteous?

Where does God draw the line between being saved and not and who?

Let’s kick it around and see what some of the responses will be.

I know what I believe, so I am not afraid to venture out into this field.

blessings, AJ
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I have no idea, except this: I trust God to do the right thing.
 
look3467 said:
If Adam and Eve were after the Neanderthals, does that mean that the Neanderthals are saved?
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Adam and Eve were the first humans, God gave them an immortal soul. Before Adam and Eve = no people = no immortal soul = animals and plants only.

If Neanderthals *predate *Adam and Eve, then they have no immortal soul and cease to exist upon death. There is no “salvatoin” for animals. And, if they don’t have an immortal soul, they are not people. This is an ontological argument, not a biological one. Do you understand the meaning of ontological?

If Neanderthals are *descendants *of Adam and Eve, then yes, they have immortal souls and they have the same possibility as all others who came before Christ of salvation-- which is completely dependent upon the grace of God and dependent upon the knowledge they had and the life they led. I have already given the relevant passage from the Catechism.

The pivot point is the breath of life God gave Adam and Eve-- their spiritual souls. Either Neandersthals came before them and had only materials souls or Neanderthals came after them and have spiritual souls made in the image and likeness of God. That is what makes us different from the animals-- the spiritual soul.

There is an answer for either situation. It has already been given.
 
Rocky said:
Your interpretation of this passage is very strange. Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. This water a man is to be born of is baptism. It makes no sense in your interpretation. Of course a man has to be born before he can receive the Spirit. If a man is not born how can the Spirit be given to him? Again, if one denies the Sacraments of the Church and her authority over them, one has to have nonsensical interpretations to justify his belief.
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The word Baptism is immersion, and by being born into this world one is immersed into this world and all it’s glory.

What is needed after that is a rebirth. You know the rest.

Blessings, AJ
 
fermat said:
Ok. If you don’t have an immortal soul, you must have a mortal soul. A soul that dies (like a plant soul or non-human animal soul) has no need for salvation.
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When mankind brought death in the cosmos, Jesu Christo brought life/salvation to the cosmos, including all life, exclusive of none:

‘Therefore creation too waits with eager longing…that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom and the glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labour pains until now’ (Romans 8:19 seq).
 
SedesDomi said:
When mankind brought death in the cosmos, Jesu Christo brought life/salvation to the cosmos, including all life, exclusive of none:

‘Therefore creation too waits with eager longing…that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom and the glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labour pains until now’ (Romans 8:19 seq).
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And now being?

Blessings, AJ
 
If Neanderthals *predate *Adam and Eve,>>1ke
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If, we had an exact date of when Adam really was created we could make a determination, but we have no such date, only a possibility based on 6,000 years.

Oh, I don’t yet know what ontological means, but I will Google it.

Only if you and I are of the same reference, or using the same thoughts, can we be somewhat in agreement on what you said.

Otherwise, we are of differing views.

Blessings, AJ
 
that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay>>>SedesDomi
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Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

The creature was made subject to vanity, and hope.

The creature reference is: an animal as well as a man? Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

What we are set free from is not decay and death of the flesh, for we all die, but of the death sentence of our spirits.

We are set free: Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Blessings, AJ
 
look3467 said:
What does the fall consist of?

Consider for a minute a newborn baby; is the baby innocent, perfect and without sin?

What about when that baby grows up and becomes accountable for its actions, would you say that at that point, the child fell, as like in fallen, like as in Adam?

So what could a baby possibly sin with, since the baby has no knowledge of anything except the will to survive?

After all that, wouldn’t you say that we were born with the ability to learn knowledge of both good and evil, and at some point in time in our eating of it(Fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil), we would become independent individuals with our own mind to do whatever we desire? As gods…maybe?

That is what we need to look at and make a determination.

Blessings, AJ
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The Fall was an actual historical event. All babies are born with the stain of Original Sin.

God bless,
Ed
 
look3467 said:
If today, why do we still as you said “decay”? Quote: “Therefore creation too waits with eager longing”,

If we have Jesus today is our longing ended?

Blessings, AJ
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When Paul said “until now”, he didn’t mean “until” as in “up until this moment, and no further”. He meant “until” as in “up to the present day and, thus, potentially beyond”.
 
AJ;

Nobody went to Heaven before Jesus died on the Cross for our sins.

Everyone who died before that time went to the place of the dead - called Gehenna in Hebrew, or Hades in Greek. Here, they waited for the consummation of the Cross. Here, Jesus preached to them for the 40 hours between His death and resurrection.

When He rose from the dead, this event caused the locks on the gates of Heaven to burst asunder, allowing the human race entry into it, and those who were destined to be saved went to Heaven.

Today, those who partake of the Sacraments of Jesus Christ in His Church, thus uniting themselves spiritually to His death and resurrection, are surely saved. It may be that others are also saved, who don’t partake of the Sacraments nor of His Church, but who in some way are chosen by Christ to bypass these requirements. We can have no way of knowing, here on earth, who these exceptional persons may be. 🙂
 
look3467 said:
The word Baptism is immersion, and by being born into this world one is immersed into this world and all it’s glory.

What is needed after that is a rebirth. You know the rest.

Blessings, AJ
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the word Baptism can mean immersion but also means washing. Through baptism our sins are washed away—

“I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities,” Ezekiel 36:25

and immediately after the Lord’s discourse on how a man can be born again in John we read: “Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was winning over and baptizing more disciples than John…” So Jesus tells Nicodemus that “No one can enter into God’s kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit” and then He is found baptizing immediately after that. Seems that the water of baptism is what is needed.

And in Acts after the Descent of the Holy Spirit on the apostles, Peter and the others go out in the Spirit speaking in tongues and praising God. When the crowd heard all that Peter said “they asked … ‘What are we to do brothers?’ Peter answered: 'You must reform and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, that your sins may be forgiven; then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

So here too we see the waters of baptism bringing the Holy Spirit.
 
Nobody went to Heaven before Jesus died on the Cross for our sins. >>>jmcrae
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I would agree with you except for the following; a baby, a mentality not capable of discernment of good or evil person.
Everyone who died before that time went to the place of the dead - called Gehenna in Hebrew, or Hades in Greek. Here, they waited for the consummation of the Cross. Here, Jesus preached to them for the 40 hours between His death and resurrection.
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I understand your explanation in its entireity except for the “everyone” word.

I happen to believe that a baby is innocent of any eternal damnation, for a baby hath not yet eaten of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

If you read this verse: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

A baby knows nothing, for the baby has not yet eaten of the fruit of good and evil.

So the day remains when it happens, (Becomes fallen)and then must reach for the other tree in order to gain life.

Those who lived and died before Christ who experienced the ability to choose between good and evil, were held in a prison, and as you stated, Jesus did visit them there.
When He rose from the dead, this event caused the locks on the gates of Heaven to burst asunder, allowing the human race entry into it, and those who were destined to be saved went to Heaven.
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Again, you want to place a condition on your responses quote: “and those who were destined to be saved” went to heaven.

I agree with the gates being opened.

Ref: Psa 107:16 For he hath broken the gates of brass,(heaven) and cut the bars of iron (Prison) in sunder.

Therefore, There are no gates to hold anyone from prison and or of heaven, for Jesus paid the price in full for all mankind.

Neanderthals, included.
Today, those who partake of the Sacraments of Jesus Christ in His Church, thus uniting themselves spiritually to His death and resurrection, are surely saved. It may be that others are also saved, who don’t partake of the Sacraments nor of His Church, but who in some way are chosen by Christ to bypass these requirements. We can have no way of knowing, here on earth, who these exceptional persons may be. 🙂
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That would be a matter of choice, not a demand.

For Jesus simply said, Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Rebirth is from the heart, between you and the Lord.

So, if the Sacraments is what leads you to the rebirth, I have no problem with that.

Blessings, AJ
 
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