Were/are the Neanderthals saved?

[look3467]

the word Baptism can mean immersion but also means washing. Through baptism our sins are washed away—>>>Rocky

Yes, I agree. If you look at Jesus when He was born, He was immersed (Baptized) into the habitat of humanity as all of us are.

Jesus was as none like us when it came to be born of God, for He was the Son of God perfect in all His ways.Un-immersed if you will in the condition of sin.

Therefore, at the Baptism of Jesus by John,Jesus was immersed into the sins of the world, that is why it was imperative that John do the symbolic meaning of it.

Immediately, Jesus was led into temptation 40 days and 40 nights, as the weight of the world was on His shoulders to bear then in victory for us.

The cross was the final nail, ending the condition of the death, and the prison sentence and the resurrection the beginning of life.

So, are the Neanderthals included?

So here too we see the waters of baptism bringing the Holy Spirit.

I see the baptism of the Holy Spirit you mean? Our soul immersed in the Holy Spirit of life?

Blessings, AJ

 

[jmcrae]

I see the baptism of the Holy Spirit you mean? Our soul immersed in the Holy Spirit of life?

Blessings, AJ

Baptism is an immersion in water (actual water - this is the physical element of the Sacrament - remember, just as Jesus was both human and divine, every Sacrament has both a physical and a spiritual element to it, because the Sacraments come from Christ) with the prayers invoking the power of the Holy Spirit - so, as St. Peter said, this washing in water is not the washing of a bath to get the body clean, but rather, the washing of the Holy Spirit, to get the soul clean. It is still actual water that is used, however, just as Jesus said.

 

[jmcrae]

I would agree with you except for the following; a baby, a mentality not capable of discernment of good or evil person.

It doesn’t matter - his ancestor, Adam, chose for him. We are all born into Original Sin. We are all oriented towards Hell from the time of our conception. It is (ordinarily) by means of baptism that we are turned around and pointed in the direction of Heaven. (With the unknown exceptions that I noted in my earlier post - there will be some unbaptized persons - extraordinary, unusual persons - whom God has chosen to save in a different way - in Heaven, but here on earth we have no way of knowing who they are.)

I happen to believe that a baby is innocent of any eternal damnation, for a baby hath not yet eaten of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

He doesn’t have to - his ancestor Adam did it for him.

In the rebirth that takes place in the Sacrament of Baptism (which Christ commanded His disciples to give to every person on earth - Matthew 28:19), he becomes a new person, and his ancestors now are no longer Adam and Eve, but Mary and Christ.

 

[look3467]

I know that in any thread, the subject matter changes allot. I have no problem with that, because I know the Holy Spirit leads the charge.

Now, putting aside the Neanderthal issue, lets continue for awhile on the baptism subject.

There are differing views on this subject and the Catholic Church has theirs.

My main concern here with it is not which way we look at it, but that following Jesus in Baptism is the first step of a sign of obedience and commitment.

Whether it be sprinkling or dipping, to me does not matter.

What matters is described in the following verses: Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

The peeling away the surrounding (Cloudiness of the law) of the heart to expose the real heart (God in us) is what is done spiritually, and no amount of physical of sprinking and or dipping can in anyway effect the spiritual.

I am comfortable with the Catholic view on Baptism, which in my view helps those who want to believe in it for their own relationship with God.

It is a personal relationship and nobody can take that away no matter what.

So, suffice it to remain as anybody wants to believe in their view of baptism, I am comfortable with it.

I look at the key importance of the coming of Christ rather than the exercise in human behavior.

Exercise in human behavior comes only first when God indwells the heart as a new reborn creature, a son or daughter of God.

Now, getting back to are the Neanderthals saved?

That question is answered in the bible, not directly, but indirectly.

Some of you here touched on the answer unaware of the its true nature.

I’m sure that as we go, the answer will become clear.

The answer has many long term ramifications, to include all of humanity and not just a chosen few.

Therfore, the Neanderthals fall into that category.

We can discuss the why of it?

Blessings, AJ

Blessings, AJ

 

[Sufjon]

There is an increasing amount of scientific evidence that Neanderthals may have cross bred with modern humans. This is not only supported by fossil findings, but some genetic research as well. Researchers suggest the interbreeding occurred about 60,000 years ago in the Mediterranean and also about 45,000 years ago in eastern Asia. This conclusion is based on studies of over 600 genetic markers, called microsatellites, sequenced in nearly 100 different populations.
While this view may be a bit unnerving today in the same way evolution was in Darwin’s time, I do think that it’ll be more or less commonly acknowledged by the general population at some point. There will always be those who, regardless of any of this, will insist that the world was created in 6 days about 6,000 years ago, and that the multi- billion year history of our universe is an annoying illusion. I would not argue with those people. Aside from all of that, let us suppose that modern humans did cross breed in some instances with Neanderthals. I think they probably did, but let’s treat it hypothetically for those who are uncomfortable with the idea. Were these cross breeds capable of being saved or damned? What is the line of demarcation between these crossbreeds and Neanderthals, or between these crossbreeds and us? What value gives one an immortal soul and not the other? I’m interested in some thoughts on that. Meanwhile, I’ll be out scratching my backside against a tree.

 

[look3467]

There are different theories about it of which none seem to be conclusive.

The acquisition of true knowledge about it elusive.

My interest in this subject has to do with the condition mankind finds itself, of which mankind had absolutely no choice in the matter, and yet, again having no choice in the changing of that condition.

The condition I am referring to is the “lost” condition verses life eternal.

Life in the flesh is one thing and life in the spirit is another.

The marriage of both makes for a living soul.

Yet, this living soul, though has life , is life in the flesh only, and will one day expire.

Both, the spiritual side and the physical side would end there to.

The souls’ spirit would then be held in a holding place until redemption time comes and of which time, that soul would be released to enter life eternal.

All that action is done by the creator without help only by mankind to accomplish it.

Mankind’s help include prophets, chosen individuals, chosen race and last of all, the Son of God in human form.

So, my thoughts are that mankind was given intelligence at some point in time, not 6,000 years ago, but before that, perhaps a million, 10 million years ago, does not matter.

The key is, that the real beginning of life was not with the first set of parents but with the second Adam.

The second Adam redeems the first and all of its offspring, for it is a work of God.

The privilege of having knowledge of the true character of God, via Jesus, and accepting the messenger and the message, is in itself a blessing enjoyed in the present time frame and with the ability to access life before the flesh expires.

To segregate, divide, and select a few chosen souls as destined for heaven is only a mankind imagination.

If mankind has no further knowledge of the works of God, than it is permissible to acknowledge those views as selective.

So divisions remain.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Sufjon]

So, my thoughts are that mankind was given intelligence at some point in time, not 6,000 years ago, but before that, perhaps a million, 10 million years ago, does not matter.

To segregate, divide, and select a few chosen souls as destined for heaven is only a mankind imagination.

If mankind has no further knowledge of the works of God, than it is permissible to acknowledge those views as selective.

So divisions remain.

Blessings, AJ

H Look3467: I can’t say that I fully understand all of the things you said in that post, but I fully agree with the portions I listed above. Not to say that I don’t agree with the other stuff, but rather that since I don’t fully understand them, I don’t have an opinion on them. I am, however, most interested in the part about human intelligence. All animals have intelligence, and the level of intelligence used to be a standard by which humans were held apart from other animals. Now that our understanding of animal intelligence has changed, the idea of self awareness and use of tools was often posited as defining factors, but of course we now know that many animals other than humans are self aware and still more use tools, some even make tools. I think the whole subject is fascinating really. I often wonder why it is we bring some animals into our homes like cats and dogs to become virtual members of our families. There are even laws about mistreating them. The curious other side of the token is that we take very intelligent animals, such as cows and pigs and breed them into lives full of misery, brutality and eventually butchering. Many of them die in absolute terror. All of this is done in spite of the fact that an acre of beans yields more protein than an acre of cattle. I wonder to myself where those lines are drawn as to what species deserves our love and which doesn’t. I also wonder whether the divinity of humankind may be relative and interrelated in some ways to humankind’s ability to see the divinity in things other than themselves, as well as one another.

 

[look3467]

All animals have intelligence, and the level of intelligence used to be a standard by which humans were held apart from other animals.>>>Sufjon

Indeed it is very interesting subject.

What I gather and from what I’ve read and understood from the bible about animals, I speculate that animals have only that which allows for an existence exclusively for the benefit of mankind.

Here are some verses which I use to support my views.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

What that statement says, I interpret is that we are made lords over them.(Have dominion)

Now, if that is the case, the animals, insects and any living creature other than mankind are under our stewardship, to manage them correctly without abuse.

Some animals are used by God as in :2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

God not being limited.

The other reasoning that I have about the animal having intelligence would only be when God uses them in conjunction with saving a human life, protecting human life, providing human comfort and companionship, other than that, I see no soul, as in like the soul of man.

Intelligence, I define as restricted to the ability to make choices based on two things: the spirit of God in mankind as the conscience, and the spirit of mankind as the earthly mind.

In the case of the Neanderthals, using them as the extreme to present a point, they had a God given conscience, though limited in human knowledge.

I believe that knowledge has been an evolutionary process in the lives of mankind, given inspiration in due time by God’s spirit for the progression towards modernization.

What is interesting about the whole thing in my view is how God, at some time later in the human time span, chose to reveal His true character and not excluding all previous souls who ever lived and died without so much as a glimpse of the true character of God via His Son.

To me, that was the mystery until the coming of Jesus when all thing were revealed.

From there I take my cues to my views.

Blessings, AJ

 

[SedesDomi]

Aside from all of that, let us suppose that modern humans did cross breed in some instances with Neanderthals. I think they probably did, but let’s treat it hypothetically for those who are uncomfortable with the idea. Were these cross breeds capable of being saved or damned? What is the line of demarcation between these crossbreeds and Neanderthals, or between these crossbreeds and us? What value gives one an immortal soul and not the other? I’m interested in some thoughts on that. Meanwhile, I’ll be out scratching my backside against a tree.

It’s possible that the crossbreeding between Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis occurred thousands of years before the time of Adam/Eve, such that Adam/Eve might have had Neanderthal ancestors.

 

[Sufjon]

It’s possible that the crossbreeding between Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis occurred thousands of years before the time of Adam/Eve, such that Adam/Eve might have had Neanderthal ancestors.

That is entirely possible. Good point.

 

[Sufjon]

Indeed it is very interesting subject.

What I gather and from what I’ve read and understood from the bible about animals, I speculate that animals have only that which allows for an existence exclusively for the benefit of mankind.

Here are some verses which I use to support my views.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

What that statement says, I interpret is that we are made lords over them.(Have dominion)

Now, if that is the case, the animals, insects and any living creature other than mankind are under our stewardship, to manage them correctly without abuse.

Some animals are used by God as in :2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

God not being limited.

The other reasoning that I have about the animal having intelligence would only be when God uses them in conjunction with saving a human life, protecting human life, providing human comfort and companionship, other than that, I see no soul, as in like the soul of man.

Intelligence, I define as restricted to the ability to make choices based on two things: the spirit of God in mankind as the conscience, and the spirit of mankind as the earthly mind.

In the case of the Neanderthals, using them as the extreme to present a point, they had a God given conscience, though limited in human knowledge.

I believe that knowledge has been an evolutionary process in the lives of mankind, given inspiration in due time by God’s spirit for the progression towards modernization.

What is interesting about the whole thing in my view is how God, at some time later in the human time span, chose to reveal His true character and not excluding all previous souls who ever lived and died without so much as a glimpse of the true character of God via His Son.

To me, that was the mystery until the coming of Jesus when all thing were revealed.

From there I take my cues to my views.

Blessings, AJ

Hi AJ: I think your observations are pretty much in line with most Christians, and I can’t say that I disagree with any of the points from a biblical perspective. I think it’s good sound interpretation of Christian beliefs. I personally see animals from another perspective, but my view isn’t based on the Bible. I do respect the Biblical view and I also am very pleased that you see a need to be kind to them, which to me is the only part in practice that matters. My dog on the other hand is another matter. He certainly tests my love for animals to the extreme!

 

[MugenOne]

Symbolic use of marine shells and mineral pigments by Iberian Neandertals

pnas.org/content/107/3/1023.full

Have you guys heard of population bottleneck theory? Population bottleneck theory is is an evolutionary event in which a significant percentage of a population or species is killed or otherwise prevented from reproducing, reducing to %between%small effective male population sizes.

With the relatively recent mapping of the human genome, new questions can be raised concerning potential genetic evidence for a Mitochondrial Eve suggests that the historical record of one man and one woman at the beginning might be accurate. When actual measured mutation rates are used with the mitochondrial DNA data.

By comparing DNA from different humans around the world, it has been found that all humans share roughly 99.9% of their genetic material—they are almost completely identical, genetically.This means that there is very little polymorphism, or variation. Much evidence of this genetic continuity has been found.

Evolutionary models of origins did not predict such low human genetic diversity. Mutations should have produced much more diversity than 0.1% over millions of years. humankind.

 

[Sufjon]

Symbolic use of marine shells and mineral pigments by Iberian Neandertals

pnas.org/content/107/3/1023.full

Have you guys heard of population bottleneck theory? Population bottleneck theory is is an evolutionary event in which a significant percentage of a population or species is killed or otherwise prevented from reproducing, reducing to %between%small effective male population sizes.

With the relatively recent mapping of the human genome, new questions can be raised concerning potential genetic evidence for a Mitochondrial Eve suggests that the historical record of one man and one woman at the beginning might be accurate. When actual measured mutation rates are used with the mitochondrial DNA data.

By comparing DNA from different humans around the world, it has been found that all humans share roughly 99.9% of their genetic material—they are almost completely identical, genetically.This means that there is very little polymorphism, or variation. Much evidence of this genetic continuity has been found.

Evolutionary models of origins did not predict such low human genetic diversity. Mutations should have produced much more diversity than 0.1% over millions of years. humankind.

Yes, I have seen something on that but I can’t say if it’s exactly the same thing, although it may be. According to that there was a point at which the human race was nearly extinct. In the course of that same analysis, if my memory is right, they were able to trace all human ancestry to what likely would have been one couple somewhere off the coast of Africa. Is that the same thing you’re referring to?

 

[look3467]

I’m learning something in the process from you all.

It is all very interesting and I 'd say continue on with the discussion.

The one thing I would like to keep in mind is that whatever direction this discussion leads, the one key important factor in all of it is the timing of the introduction of God into the mix of human affairs.

The follow up on that is the inclusion. Who all is included and or excluded.

Is there any evidence in the bible, being the only true source link between heaven and earth, that gives us a clue about how God would include the whole of humanity into a single day, verses a 7-day creation?

I am interested in all the non-religious sources, sciences, authors and or sources that would enhance my understanding of the biblical view of humanity.

So, with that said, I am enjoying the conversation.

God has given us all gifts of varying degrees, and if we work together in a spirit of good will, we shall accomplish much, despite the differences in views.

Blessings, AJ