Were Jews back in the day not into painting or why aren't there any?

[504Katrin]

Has anyone seen an authentic pic of King David, Ezra or Jehemia? Please let me know if you have. Aren’t there any?
If so, how comes that there’s not one single picture of David for instance, or Solomon? Did noone not even paint a picture of the Holy Temple, and keep that picture for generations to come? Jews back in the day kept track of everything so precisely that we have their records until present day. However, noone seemed to have kept a picture of our forefathers??? Is it maybe that there used to be paintings at the Temple mount hidden under ground, and people stole them? If they stole old drawings or paintings, how come not one of them has ever shown up again?

Maybe I should have better posted this thread in the other Forum where more people can see it so that my chances to find someone who has seen a picture would be higher.

 

[Falco]

weren’t the Jews forbidden to make images of any living thing?

‘The Jews did not paint pictures of God. They thought that this broke one of God’s rules. At first, Christians did not paint Jesus in pictures for the same reason. Instead, when they wanted Jesus in a picture, they painted a *hart (or a male deer). They did this because they believed that Jesus repeated parts of Psalm 42 before he died. The parts are at the top of Psalm 42. As the *psalmist was “*like a *hart”, so Jesus was “*like a *hart”. So they painted a *hart, not Jesus. Later artists painted Jesus. As we have no pictures of the real Jesus, artists now paint what they thought he looked *like.
God’s rules are in The 10 Commandments. One of these says “You must not make for yourself anything that looks *like me”. (Exodus 20:4) “Looks *like me” in Hebrew is “image”. It could be a picture or an idol.’

 

[Kaninchen]

Has anyone seen an authentic pic of King David, Ezra or Jehemia? Please let me know if you have. Aren’t there any?
If so, how comes that there’s not one single picture of David for instance, or Solomon? Did noone not even paint a picture of the Holy Temple, and keep that picture for generations to come? Jews back in the day kept track of everything so precisely that we have their records until present day. However, noone seemed to have kept a picture of our forefathers??? Is it maybe that there used to be paintings at the Temple mount hidden under ground, and people stole them? If they stole old drawings or paintings, how come not one of them has ever shown up again?

Maybe I should have better posted this thread in the other Forum where more people can see it so that my chances to find someone who has seen a picture would be higher.

You shall not make for yourself a sculptured image, or any likeness of what is in the heavens above, or on the earth below, or in the waters under the earth . . .

Exodus 20

 

[504Katrin]

You shall not make for yourself a sculptured image, or any likeness of what is in the heavens above, or on the earth below, or in the waters under the earth . . .

Exodus 20

Thank you Kaninchen. My friend keeps a photograph of his deseased Rabbi on his wall. Some have pictures of the Rambam. And most people have photos of their Great Grandparents and Grandparents. Why not keep a picture of of other ancestors, Great Great Great Great…and so on… Grandparent like Jehemia or David, or other Rabbis like Rabbi Akiva? You know what I mean? Please help me understand the difference if you can.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Thank you Kaninchen. My friend keeps a photograph of his deseased Rabbi on his wall. Some have pictures of the Rambam. And most people have photos of their Great Grandparents and Grandparents. Why not keep a picture of of other ancestors, Great Great Great Great…and so on… Grandparent like Jehemia or David, or other Rabbis like Rabbi Akiva? You know what I mean? Please help me understand the difference if you can.

The difference is, it’s not 4500 or 2000 years ago. Jews in the time of the Incarnation decorated objects with designs. I believe the designs were approved by the Pharisees. They would be scrolls and curlicues, things like that. But not beings of any kind.

Things change. I have no idea what the different forms of Judaism allow today. Certainly a Reformed Jew isn’t going to have a problem with a picture.

 

[Monergistic]

You know how it is with Islam? No pictures of Muhammed, art is limited mainly to shapes and doesn’t deal with people much at all. In this sense, at least, Judaism and Christianity were both a bit more similar to Islam at one point in time. All of them are Abrahamic religions, and there was a time when the divergence between any one of them was not so great. Islam appears to have held on to this sort of thing more than the others, so in a way the more traditional habits of Islam can give you some insight to the minds and habits of ancient Jews and very early Christians. In terms of art, anyway.

 

[Kaninchen]

Thank you Kaninchen. My friend keeps a photograph of his deseased Rabbi on his wall. Some have pictures of the Rambam. And most people have photos of their Great Grandparents and Grandparents. Why not keep a picture of of other ancestors, Great Great Great Great…and so on… Grandparent like Jehemia or David, or other Rabbis like Rabbi Akiva? You know what I mean? Please help me understand the difference if you can.

As with everything Jewish it’s a case of 'on the one hand, while on the other hand, while on yet another hand . . . ’

A good resource is always ‘My Jewish Learning’ and here they are on ‘graven images’

The Halakhic response to the arrival of photography was that it wasn’t a matter of creating ‘graven images’ (presumably because photographic plates/films were not ‘engraved’).

By the way, in the era that you were talking about in your OP, you have to remember that everybody else was into ‘graven images’ and worshipping them. Falling into the graven images trap was a routine part of the ‘we’re being very naughty and doing the naughty stuff others do/bad stuff happens/somebody turns up to save us/we behave ourselves/good stuff happens’ scenarios of our history. Images were therefore both a religious and religious-political issue.

 

[meltzerboy]

As with everything Jewish it’s a case of 'on the one hand, while on the other hand, while on yet another hand . . . ’

A good resource is always ‘My Jewish Learning’ and here they are on ‘graven images’

The Halakhic response to the arrival of photography was that it wasn’t a matter of creating ‘graven images’ (presumably because photographic plates/films were not ‘engraved’).

By the way, in the era that you were talking about in your OP, you have to remember that everybody else was into ‘graven images’ and worshipping them. Falling into the graven images trap was a routine part of the ‘we’re being very naughty and doing the naughty stuff others do/bad stuff happens/somebody turns up to save us/we behave ourselves/good stuff happens’ scenarios of our history. Images were therefore both a religious and religious-political issue.

Weren’t synagogues of the ancient era decorated with images of Patriarchs and angels? I vaguely recall reading about this. Perhaps the Greek influence on Judaism.

 

[Kaninchen]

Weren’t synagogues of the ancient era decorated with images of Patriarchs and angels? I vaguely recall reading about this. Perhaps the Greek influence on Judaism.

I think you’re in the world of over-generalization here (how many? where? when? for how long?) and also have to remember the idea of the ‘imperfect image’ (as in mosaics for example).

 

[dzheremi]

Weren’t synagogues of the ancient era decorated with images of Patriarchs and angels? I vaguely recall reading about this. Perhaps the Greek influence on Judaism.

Indeed they were, though I don’t know if you can attribute that fact to Hellenic influence or not. For some interesting reading, check out what the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs website has to say about the synagogue of Capernaum (particularly under the section “synagogue decorations”). Capernaum was definitely founded during the Hellenistic period, Some of the motifs found during the excavation of the synagogue are mentioned in the Revelation of St. John (written c.70 AD), and there are some Greek inscriptions (in addition to Aramaic) found among the ruins.

A fascinating topic, by the way. As to the other poster who has mentioned Islam, it appears that Islam has also vacillated on this topic historically, as a quick Google search on Islamic art can show us:

http://www.bra(name removed by moderator)ickings.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/rumi13.jpg
From a Turkish-produced book on the life of Rumi, 16th century

http://content.lib.washington.edu/c...MX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=&REC=1&DMTHUMB=0&DMROTATE=0
“Demotte Shanamah”, Persia, 14th century

http://content.lib.washington.edu/c...MX=0&DMY=0&DMTEXT=&REC=1&DMTHUMB=0&DMROTATE=0
“Khamsah”, Herat, Afghanistan, 15th century

etc., etc.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Weren’t synagogues of the ancient era decorated with images of Patriarchs and angels? I vaguely recall reading about this. Perhaps the Greek influence on Judaism.

Yes–the paintings on the wall at the synagogue at Dura Europos are probably the most famous example of this.

 

[504Katrin]

As with everything Jewish it’s a case of 'on the one hand, while on the other hand, while on yet another hand . . . ’

Lol, yes…very true I just talked to my friend who keeps this photo of his Rabbi on the wall, and who’s a photographer and into archeology and old and ancient things in gerenal, and he says that we simply haven’t been a people of painters, but a people of writers. Papyros had been too expensive back then he said, and he also said that they did indeed find old clay fragments with paintings on there and such in Jerusalem.

I remember, not too long ago, YKohen posted a link about something I can’t remember what it was, it was some kind of Institute in Jerusalem, and I clicked on their Gallery tab and found a painting of the Temple and the painting also showed King David. So, I contacted this Institute and asked them if that painting happened to be a well restored relic from back in the day when the Temple still stood, as if it was indeed so we would know what David looked like. Someone emailed me back a week later and said that he wasn’t aware of any pics that showed David or the Temple from back in the day.

A good resource is always ‘My Jewish Learning’ and here they are on ‘graven images’

The Halakhic response to the arrival of photography was that it wasn’t a matter of creating ‘graven images’ (presumably because photographic plates/films were not ‘engraved’).

Thank you, this is what I wanted to know

By the way, in the era that you were talking about in your OP, you have to remember that everybody else was into ‘graven images’ and worshipping them. Falling into the graven images trap was a routine part of the ‘we’re being very naughty and doing the naughty stuff others do/bad stuff happens/somebody turns up to save us/we behave ourselves/good stuff happens’ scenarios of our history. Images were therefore both a religious and religious-political issue.

While I was harbouring this question I also considered the possibility that because the Egyptians and Greek did a lot of artworks we kept away from it altogether on purpose, but then I thought maybe I went too far with this thought, but maybe I wasn’t that far off

 

[Monergistic]

A fascinating topic, by the way. As to the other poster who has mentioned Islam, it appears that Islam has also vacillated on this topic historically, as a quick Google search on Islamic art can show us:

Thanks for pointing that out, I could use a little more familiarity with the progression of art through history in the major world religions.

 

[Bezant]

While everyone touched on a valid point, I think there’s another problem that hasn’t been addressed.

I don’t know wether any of you have an artistic bent, but pretend you do. Imagine that you are a master sculptor and Kim Kardashian hires you to create a statue of her. If archeologists discover her statue in intact condition five thousand years from now, they are very, very, very lucky.

Keep in mind that five thousand years is a loooooong time to weather against not only deterioration, but the changing perceptions of what is and isn’t important. Many of the ancient artifacts and sites we pay loads of money to visit today were actually considered a waste of space. For example, outer blocks from the Pyramids of Giza were used to build later construction projects. We would never dream of doing that now, but in the medieval era people thought, why let a heap of perfectly good stone go to waste?

In other words, there is a lot scholars don’t know about the ancient world, either because the evidence is lost, or because they don’t understand what the surviving evidence means. So even if someone painted an authentic portrait of King David, it may very well have the same chances of being discovered in the distant future as the used tissues in my rubbish bin.

 

[aspirant]

Has anyone seen an authentic pic of King David, Ezra or Jehemia? Please let me know if you have. Aren’t there any?

Bezant is right: “there is a lot scholars don’t know about the ancient world, either because the evidence is lost, or because they don’t understand what the surviving evidence means.” If you’re talking about contemporary images, such as a portrait created during the lifetimes of these people, it’s rare for such things-- even if they existed-- to survive over a long period of time. It’s a BIG DEAL when people find pieces of stone that may have David’s name on them.

how comes that there’s not one single picture of David for instance, or Solomon? Did noone not even paint a picture of the Holy Temple, and keep that picture for generations to come?

There are images of these people and of the Temple, we just haven’t found any from the time periods you appear to be wanting.

Weren’t synagogues of the ancient era decorated with images of Patriarchs and angels? I vaguely recall reading about this. Perhaps the Greek influence on Judaism.

Ancient synagogues, at least the ones that still exist, do have imagery. I visited one mentioned in this article when I was on the Sepphoris dig long ago.

 

[YKohen]

While everyone touched on a valid point, I think there’s another problem that hasn’t been addressed…

I agree.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Ancient synagogues, at least the ones that still exist, do have imagery. I visited one mentioned in this article when I was on the Sepphoris dig long ago.

This is from the most excellent article you linked above:

So this was definitely a synagogue, a Jewish house of worship, in a basilica building that dates to about 520 C.E.3 The building was destroyed in an earthquake soon after it was built,4 hence the near-perfect preservation of its mosaic floor; their misfortune became our good fortune. And because Beth Alpha is the best preserved of the seven synagogues we know, we use it here as the basis for our discussion.5

Now, of course, we have problems. We know that Jewish life moved to the Galilee after the total destruction of Jewish Jerusalem that followed the Bar-Kokhba Revolt of the 130s C.E. We are, therefore, not surprised to have found—and to keep finding—synagogues from the following centuries all over the Galilee and Golan. It isn’t the synagogues themselves that are the problem; it is the decorations in them. What in heaven’s name were they doing? How could they be making pictures, especially in the synagogue? Didn’t they know the second commandment?

You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them” (Exodus 20:4–5)

That problem is not as formidable as it first appears. The second commandment can be read in several ways because the Hebrew original of this text is entirely without vowels and punctuation points. We, writing English, have put in a period after the word “earth.”6 But if the period weren’t there, the verse could be read as a long conditional clause: “make no graven images … which you worship.” In this case it’s not the making that is prohibited, but the worshiping. Historically, the Jewish community often understood that it was acceptable to make images as long as one doesn’t worship them. And there is, consequently, a long and varied history of Jewish art, beginning with the cherubim over the Ark in the desert (Exodus 25:18), recorded presumably not long after the giving of the Commandments, and without protest.

 

[504Katrin]

This is from the most excellent article you linked above:

The Cherubim are a totally differnt animal though. G0d Himself told them to make them and instructed them on how to make them.

Btw, cute avatar

 

[aspirant]

The Cherubim are a totally differnt animal though. G0d Himself told them to make them and instructed them on how to make them.

God instructed them to make many images for the tabernacle, it’s true: cherubim, pomegranates.

I do not recall Solomon receiving similar divine instructions when he built the temple. The rich decorations featuring cherubim, palm trees, flowers, oxen, and so forth seem to be human designs, not divine. God nevertheless consecrated all of it for divine worship (1Kings 9:1-3).

 

[504Katrin]

God instructed them to make many images for the tabernacle, it’s true: cherubim, pomegranates.

I do not recall Solomon receiving similar divine instructions when he built the temple. The rich decorations featuring cherubim, palm trees, flowers, oxen, and so forth seem to be human designs, not divine. God nevertheless consecrated all of it for divine worship (1Kings 9:1-3).

If you ask me, I firmly believe that David watched his son building the entire Holy Temple. Why? Because, it is said the doors of the Holy Temple didn’t open until Solomon said a prayer in which he remembered his father. Brings a tear to the eye, does it not?