Were Judas's actions Predetermined?

[cynic]

from another topic

cynic:

but it IS the cause of the event in this situation, because he is the creator, so if he creates something knowing what it will do he causes it. He causes the future, he is not just an observer.

If I write a computer programme, knowing and understanding every step in it’s construction, knowing excactly what the outcome of the programming will be, then press the “run programme” icon - I cannot then throw up my hands afterwards and say “I had no control over this” because I’m not activley involved after the programme is set in motion. Yet that’s what you want us to believe about God, the foreknowing creator who somehow doesn’t predestine.

Pax:

Maybe an example will help. I hire someone that is coming out of a half-way house because of drug addiction. I know that this person has been through the system several times and always turns back to drugs. Nevertheless, I want to help the individual and I get him/her a place to live and I give them a job that pays slightly above a living wage. I know that this person will follow the same pattern and return to using drugs. After several weeks of working and staying clean, the person slips back into the drug scene and no longer shows up for work. Did I cause the person to return to the drug scene because I knew they would do so? The answer is “no.” None of my actions, or my willful intentions, or my foreknowledge had anything to do with the person returning to drugs.

you’re example is flawed, you do not really have foreknowledge in this situation.

 

[cynic]

Pax:

If you really believe that God predetermines everything that is evil/sinful then you have just found a creative way to dismiss any and all personal responsibility for any sins you commit, .

perhaps, but that’s not my intention, I simply don’t believe that a God who is just and values each human creation can, or would, have foreknowledge, despite the pseudo metaphysical “God outside time” stuff Catholics like to repeat (which doesn’t answer the issue of predestination anyway). I suppose that’s called open theism, I don’t really care.

 

[TheOpenTheist]

cynic asked

If God does not cause us to sin, then in theory could Judas have chosen a different path?

Yes.

I don’t see how he could have, the crucifiction had to happen

Judas’ betrayal was in no way necessary for the crucifixion to take place.

the betrayel had to happen

No, it did not have to happen.

and even his subsequent suicide was part of prophecy (the field where nothing would grow…).

There is no predictive prophecy or forecast that says Christ had to be betrayed. Scripture is “fulfilled” in the sense that it is filled full or illustrated. The fulfillment of Hos 11:1 referred to in Matt 2:15 is a good example of this. Hos 11:1 refers to a past event at the time it was written (Israel’s exodus out of Egypt).

This is different from God knowing the future, since no other possibility could be allowed to Judas.

It depends on the content of the future that God fully knows. If the future God fully knows is made up completely of settled realities then God is powerless to do anything other than what He knows will occur. If the future is partly settled and partly open, then God can interact and influence creation to bring about His will.

Is this an example of Calvinist predestination?

Not at all. The very best explanation I have ever read about Judas and his ability to not betray Christ is given here in an online debate that occured recently theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=831980&postcount=9

 

[allhers]

cynic:

nobodies answered the question - how can predestination and true free will (ie the ability to choose our future, which we clearly don’t have if God foreknows everything) coexist. However I’m fascinated by Judas’s death, his suicide.

Surely if he thought that what he had done was so bad that God would not forgive him, or should not, then that is an endeering thing. To assume forgiveness for sin, especially a sin that bad, to me sounds like presumption. By recognising the magnitude of his crime and despairing, isn’t Judas, in fact , MORE deserving of forgiveness than someone who assumes they will be forgiven? I mean wouldn’t God take pity on that?

All we can do is speculate, however, the Church seems to believe more toward the opinion that Judas was not exactly heaven bound by Jesus saying that it were better had he (Judas) not been born plus the other obvious things that have already been mentioned on this thread.
In any case, God can do whatever he wants, we commend all people who commit sucide into the hands of a loving and merciful God. It is we who make the choice as to wether or not we will go and seek out His love and mercy, He doesn’t force us to do it. However, He does give us every opportunity to do so.

 

[Pax]

Cynic,

You are right about the analogy I used. Analogies are not logical proofs but are illustrations to shed light on the subject. Your analogy also suffers from similar limitations. Your (name removed by moderator)ut here has, however, been helpful in zeroing in on the area that most concerns you.

Let’s examine your analogy and see if we can’t get to the heart of the matter. The computer programmer in your analogy sets up every “0” and “1” and controls the routines as run by the operating system. Naturally, this creates a sequence with not only known outcomes by the programmer, but the programmer creates the outcomes themselves. This means that the outcomes are determined by the programmer in advance. Thus everything is predetermined. Your illustration helps me focus on your concerns about God and the acts of man.

It should be pointed out that in your programming scenario you failed to include the possibility of items within the program acting in any other way than the “rigid” programming would allow. In a simple computer program everything is programmed in an absolute sense. In the more sophisticated and complex computer programs there are additional possibilities not predetermined by the programmer. This is because the programmer allows for random variables, choices by users, and program interactions that result in outcomes that are not predetermined. This can easily be seen in the latest video games. The creators of these games are constantly working to make their games playable in random and user controlled fashions that include flexibility for non-predetermined outcomes. Gamers want this kind of play and programmers are constantly working to expand this dimension.

Another variation of a computer analogy could include the examination of outcomes of a given program. A word processing program works in a well determined fashion and the outcome of key strokes are totally predictable. The program, however, does not predict or determine what the “user” will actually compose. Thus the varied outcomes of word processing are virtually infinite. Your analogy could easily be expressed in terms that include a random character and unpredictable aspects that make it more closely resemble the real world. These analogies are helpful but they still have limitations.

In contrast God does not program life in the limited fashion of even the best computer programmer. Scripture tells us that God desires that all men be saved [1 Tim 2:3-4]. Clearly, not everyone is going to be saved. It may even be safe to suggest that “many” will not be saved. This clearly demonstrates that God somehow allows for men to freely choose not to be saved even though He desires their salvation. We even see examples in scripture of men “resisting” the will of God. In Acts 7:51 it says, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.” These things are important because they tell us that there is a desire on God’s part that all men be saved, that not everyone will be saved, that men can resist God’s will, and that all of this occurs within the universe of God’s foreknowledge. Clearly, God does not cause man to do evil, but he enables man to do good.

 

[cynic]

Pax:

It should be pointed out that in your programming scenario you failed to include the possibility of items within the program acting in any other way than the “rigid” programming would allow. In a simple computer program everything is programmed in an absolute sense. In the more sophisticated and complex computer programs there are additional possibilities not predetermined by the programmer. This is because the programmer allows for random variables, choices by users, and program interactions that result in outcomes that are not predetermined. This can easily be seen in the latest video games. The creators of these games are constantly working to make their games playable in random and user controlled fashions that include flexibility for non-predetermined outcomes. Gamers want this kind of play and programmers are constantly working to expand this dimension.

…

In contrast God does not program life in the limited fashion of even the best computer programmer. Scripture tells us that God desires that all men be saved [1 Tim 2:3-4]. Clearly, not everyone is going to be saved. It may even be safe to suggest that “many” will not be saved. This clearly demonstrates that God somehow allows for men to freely choose not to be saved even though He desires their salvation. We even see examples in scripture of men “resisting” the will of God. In Acts 7:51 it says, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.” These things are important because they tell us that there is a desire on God’s part that all men be saved, that not everyone will be saved, that men can resist God’s will, and that all of this occurs within the universe of God’s foreknowledge. Clearly, God does not cause man to do evil, but he enables man to do good.

then with that description God does not have absolute foreknowledge.

Yet I think you’d still insist that God does have foreknowledge of every choice we make, in which case there would be no random element, no outcomes that weren’t predetermined. The programming anology is also flawed, yes, because God in fact will already know every situation that we will encounter, and know our response, so while in theory other possibilities may be open to us, if our starting ‘programme’ ans situations encountered were to be different, that does not change anything.

It’s like a ball rolling down a hill, if God knows the exact trajectory, and every variable, then the fact that it could change trajectory with different variables is irrelevant, because God has already defined the variables

A set future is imcompatable with true free will because true spontanouse choice cannot exist.

 

[Magicsilence]

cynic:

A set future is imcompatable with true free will because true spontanouse choice cannot exist.

When i decide to kill someone, then im making a choice myself.

Ultimately, we are all given the same (relative) chances in life, those who decide to open up to Christ are saved, those who dont are not.

If i say, oh, that man over there will be damned because he had emotional issues as a child. God knew he would, but still created him, therefore God is evil. It is a wrong stance because we are all given the same chance at heaven, the more that is given, the more that is expected. Therefore, we are all equal, we all know what to do to attain salvation, if i decide to not do it, thats my fault. Not the fault of God.

Yes, God knew what would happen, but that doesnt mean it had already happened. It is ultimately our choice to reject sin that determines our lives. God knows who will love sin too much too reject it, does that make Him responsible ? He created them, yes, but did not program them. That is what free will is.

 

[Pax]

Cynic,

Your view creates all kinds of contradictions to scripture and ignores the “if/and” nature of our relationship with God. God told Abraham that he would destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham implored God several times to spare the two towns and God responded to him. We know how the story ends and we know that Lot’s family is spared. There are many other scripture stories that show that prayer can have an effect on a divine determination. It isn’t that we change God’s mind, but it is, instead, part of the “if/and” interplay between God and man.

The apostle James tells us that “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.”[James 5:16] So think of it this way. If the just man doesn’t pray the desired effects will not be granted. If the just man does pray the desired effects will be granted. In this type of instance there is more than one possibility and God allows our participation to take either direction by our own free will. We are not puppets or auto-motons. We are God’s creation with the gift of free will.

Since God created everything, it can be argued that he is the primary cause of all things. This is true in a broad sense, but there are secondary causes that God has permitted to exist within his creation of all things. The secondary causes cannot be “directly” attributed to God. We see this illustrated in our own life experience. We beget children and are essential in the procreative process so in one sense we could be considered to be a primary cause. We raise the children and eventually they become independent. As adults the children become responsible for their own behavior and choices. The parent cannot be said to have predetermined the child’s choice to buy a Toyota rather than a Honda for transportation. This is particularly obvious when the parents will never buy any make other than a Ford. This kind of thing applies to good and evil acts as well.

Our own life experiences with our children are a great reflection of God’s interaction with us. He allows us to choose. He just happens to know the choice that we will make. The child can know with a tremendous certitude that his parents next car will be a Ford even though the child has been trying for years to get them to switch to a Toyota. Likewise, the parent can know with great certitude that the child will buy a Toyota. In neither case did the parties predetermine the actions of the other. Each made their own choices with complete freedom. This freedom was granted them by the Creator. The degree of God’s certitude about our choices is obviously greater than any form of human certitude.

Moreover, God’s certitude extends to all things. Knowledge, however, is not necessarily a cause. In order to reject what has been told to you, it is necessary for you to establish an unbreakable logical linkage between knowledge and cause. This you have not done and cannot do. The distinctions between primary and secondary causes as well as “free will” within the universe established by the Creator is essential to understanding and solving your dilema.

If scripture says that we can resist the Holy Spirit, then it is clear that God is not predetermining what we do. It is clear that we have choices that are our own. Predetermination requires that we cannot resist in any way.

 

[Pax]

In my post # 20 I said the following:

Maybe an example will help. I hire someone that is coming out of a half-way house because of drug addiction. I know that this person has been through the system several times and always turns back to drugs. Nevertheless, I want to help the individual and I get him/her a place to live and I give them a job that pays slightly above a living wage. I know that this person will follow the same pattern and return to using drugs. After several weeks of working and staying clean, the person slips back into the drug scene and no longer shows up for work. Did I cause the person to return to the drug scene because I knew they would do so? The answer is “no.” None of my actions, or my willful intentions, or my foreknowledge had anything to do with the person returning to drugs.

You responded that, "you’re example is flawed, you do not really have foreknowledge in this situation."

Please be advised that the example is not flawed. You are only correct in assessing the degree of foreknowledge and certitude. My degree of certitude may be such that I could wager my life savings and win the bet. God’s knowledge and certitude is simply greater than mine. This does not undo the fact that in neither case was the knowledge and certitude the cause of the action.

To make the argument more persuasive simply imagine that I have received a Divine revelation that the drug addict will return to his/her preferred chemical vice. Now “my knowledge is absolute” because it was revealed to me by God. Even though I now share the absolute foreknowledge, it still cannot be said that I caused it to happen. Foreknowledge does not necessarily equate to causality. If my absolute foreknowledge did not cause the drug addict to return to the addiction then it cannot be logically argued that God’s foreknowledge caused the person to do the action either.

I hope this helps.

 

[John-the-Seeker]

Choices:
We have free will and we exercise that free will albeit not always wisely or in accordance with the knowledge and wisdom we possess.

 

[cynic]

I’ve never implied that we should ‘blame’ God for evil, all I’ve said is that, if our choices are known to him, our existence is pointless because we have no true free will. I’ll post something better later, If I can be bothered because quite frankly you’ve done nothing more than repeat Catholic dogma and re-iterate yourself. Obviousely knowledge and predestination are synonomous because THIS IS GOD - unless you think he closed his eyes when he made us. I’ve said this, yet you dance around the point of it. In the case of your junkie you are an observer, you are not his maker, you do not know every inclination he has, nor exactly what he will do when faced with an infinite number of situations. It’s quite arrogant of you to think that you might, even a litttle bit.

Think about it, why did a foreknowing God make those he knew would end up in hell - the only answer is some sort of Clavanist nightmare - he made them for his own glory, to make good look ‘more good’ in comparison. How can we claim that God is just and loves each one of his if he has created the soul KNOWING it’s fate.

I posted this is another thread…

cynic:

Out of interest I asked my muslim work mate, " do you believe that God already knows every choice we will make?"

His reply : “No, that would make existing pointless”. I can’t help but agree.

 

[Pax]

cynic:

I’ve never implied that we should ‘blame’ God for evil, all I’ve said is that, if our choices are known to him, our existence is pointless because we have no true free will. I’ll post something better later, If I can be bothered because quite frankly you’ve done nothing more than repeat Catholic dogma and re-iterate yourself. Obviousely knowledge and predestination are synonomous because THIS IS GOD - unless you think he closed his eyes when he made us. I’ve said this, yet you dance around the point of it. In the case of your junkie you are an observer, you are not his maker, you do not know every inclination he has, nor exactly what he will do when faced with an infinite number of situations. It’s quite arrogant of you to think that you might, even a litttle bit.

Think about it, why did a foreknowing God make those he knew would end up in hell - the only answer is some sort of Clavanist nightmare - he made them for his own glory, to make good look ‘more good’ in comparison. How can we claim that God is just and loves each one of his if he has created the soul KNOWING it’s fate.

I posted this is another thread…

You say we have only repeated Catholic dogma and a host of other things and to no avail. Well, I would disagree. I have made an effort to simply deal with this issue from logic and scripture. You apparently fail to see the logical connections. Moreover, you have failed to articulate a reasoned and logical refutation of the reasoning or the scriptures. Yours has simply been a rejection.

I will attempt to answer your last question, i.e. “How can we claim that God is just and loves each one of his if he has created the soul KNOWING it’s fate.” I do not find this an easy question to answer nor do I think that I can give an answer that fully satisfies my own curiousity in the matter let alone your requirements. Nevertheless, I’ll give it a shot.

I think that the best we can do is try to appreciate what God has done and why through a “glass dimly” based upon life experiences and speculations emanating from those experiences. Man is naturally attracted to things that are good. Unfortunately, we suffer from the effects of original sin and have disordered desires and dimmed intellects. The latter effect of original sin prevents us from properly understanding the hierarchy of truths and goodness of various things and ideals.

God sees all of these things with total clarity and apparently sees that a greater good is served by allowing members of his creation to reject him. God recognizes that man would not be man without free will, and that man would be something substantially less than he is without free will. Man cannot love without free will. God is by definition “love” in its fullest and perfect sense. Man cannot have a “relationship” with God without entering into a relationship of love. Love is not love without freedom of choice.

It would seem to me that God sees free will as a necessary component of a love relationship and that man cannot enter that relationship with Him without it. Therefore, in order for man to be fully human and glorified as God desires him to be, he must have free will. This component of free will is so important to the full dimensionality of our humaness that it outweighs the consequences of those that freely reject the Creator.

Please accept this explanation on my part as humbly presented. I am merely speculating and I am clearly out of my depth. There could be other possibilities that I do not recognize or perceive. Nevertheless, my point certainly represents a possibility and perhaps a beginning for further exploration. At this point, I see no logical reason why it wouldn’t be true but it is speculative and represents a guess at a hierarchy of truths and values that are hard to appreciate from our perspective.

One last point. Love relationships require freedom. God would not truly love us if he forced himself upon us. He gives us free will so that we can truly and freely love Him. If there is no free will and no choice on our part to reject him, then there is by definition “no love” between us. We would be more like a tree than a person. He might love us as an “object” of His creation but He would not have a love relationship with us. The love relationship far exceeds in richness, beauty, and glory any alternative that your scenarios might suggest. As human beings we are created and wired for relationships, and all of our earthly relationships tells us something about the ultimate relationship we are to have with God. Even so they are but reflections of the ultimate reality. Without free will that reality would not exist.

 

[cynic]

Pax:

I will attempt to answer your last question, i.e. “How can we claim that God is just and loves each one of his if he has created the soul KNOWING it’s fate.” I do not find this an easy question to answer nor do I think that I can give an answer that fully satisfies my own curiousity in the matter let alone your requirements. Nevertheless, I’ll give it a shot.

I think that the best we can do is try to appreciate what God has done and why through a “glass dimly” based upon life experiences and speculations emanating from those experiences. Man is naturally attracted to things that are good. Unfortunately, we suffer from the effects of original sin and have disordered desires and dimmed intellects. The latter effect of original sin prevents us from properly understanding the hierarchy of truths and goodness of various things and ideals.

God sees all of these things with total clarity and apparently sees that a greater good is served by allowing members of his creation to reject him. God recognizes that man would not be man without free will, and that man would be something substantially less than he is without free will. Man cannot love without free will. God is by definition “love” in its fullest and perfect sense. Man cannot have a “relationship” with God without entering into a relationship of love. Love is not love without freedom of choice.

It would seem to me that God sees free will as a necessary component of a love relationship and that man cannot enter that relationship with Him without it. Therefore, in order for man to be fully human and glorified as God desires him to be, he must have free will. This component of free will is so important to the full dimensionality of our humaness that it outweighs the consequences of those that freely reject the Creator.

Please accept this explanation on my part as humbly presented. I am merely speculating and I am clearly out of my depth. There could be other possibilities that I do not recognize or perceive. Nevertheless, my point certainly represents a possibility and perhaps a beginning for further exploration. At this point, I see no logical reason why it wouldn’t be true but it is speculative and represents a guess at a hierarchy of truths and values that are hard to appreciate from our perspective.

One last point. Love relationships require freedom. God would not truly love us if he forced himself upon us. He gives us free will so that we can truly and freely love Him. If there is no free will and no choice on our part to reject him, then there is by definition “no love” between us. We would be more like a tree than a person. He might love us as an “object” of His creation but He would not have a love relationship with us. The love relationship far exceeds in richness, beauty, and glory any alternative that your scenarios might suggest. As human beings we are created and wired for relationships, and all of our earthly relationships tells us something about the ultimate relationship we are to have with God. Even so they are but reflections of the ultimate reality. Without free will that reality would not exist.

ah, I agree with that, but you havn’t answered the quoted question ie. how can that be reconciled with a God who makes us knowing our fate. Assuming here that you do believe that…

 

[John-the-Seeker]

Think about it, why did a foreknowing God make those he knew would end up in hell - the only answer is some sort of Clavanist nightmare - he made them for his own glory, to make good look ‘more good’ in comparison. How can we claim that God is just and loves each one of his if he has created the soul KNOWING it’s fate.

With these words you have captured one of the great mysteries of God’s Love. Without the opportunity to either FREELY embrace or reject God’s plan for our lives, we could never be lifted higher than the angels through the mixing of Jesus’ Divinity with our humanity or conversely made lower than humans. Only God can completely and fully explain how this is just and merciful. I only know that those in Hell do not want to love or be loved by God even there! This is completely incomprehensible to me but I know/believe it to be true.

For the believer there is more than enough evidence of God’s perfection and mercy. To the scorner there is never enough. We pray that any souls so hardened as to become cynical, as mine once was, will be converted to knowing the Truth which is Jesus.

 

[Breton]

Part of the problem with this discussion and others concerning predestination, the elect, free will, etc…is that we try to describe God’s existence with inadequate, human terms. Once we begin using language descriptive of time i.e. future, pre-whatever, fore-whatever, when, if, was, will be, etc…we immediately fall into a futile exercise of trying to describe something that is indescribable - a mystery. You can not talk about “when” did God know this or that and therefore decided this or that. There is no “when” where God is concerned

God is all-knowing. Judas betrayed Jesus of his own free will. These two statements are not contradictory and are in harmony with Catholic teaching.

 

[Pax]

Cynic,

I believe the question was answered in my last post, but I will try to be a bit more direct. Your objection to that answer apparently rests on the following: While God may give us free will as a necessary element to our humanity and our ability to live in a love relationship with Him, this does not directly confront the issue of why He would “still” create persons knowing that they will go to hell. The unstated assumption would be that God could simply create people with free will that He knows will be saved, and “not” create persons with free will that He knows will not be saved. If I have misstated what appears to be your objection please correct me and clarify your position.

Answering this objection is again a speculation because of our limited perspective and understanding. Moreover, I am once again way out of my depth. Others with greater mental capacity, time, and study have probably given some pretty good answers. I would rather refer you to someone like Augustine or Aquinas, but I have not researched their thoughts on the subject. My guess is that they have probably provided some deep insights in this area.

The first thing that occurred to me in looking at this objection is that if God only created those that would freely choose Him and be saved, then we might be having a similar argument over whether or not the saved were truly free. If everyone chose God and was saved it might be argued that there really was no freedom because there would be a lack of empirical evidence to that end. God sees the importance and “value” of free will as it relates to the greatest of all virtues. That virtue is the supernatural gift of love. God loves us unconditionally and will ultimately give us what we really want. If we freely choose something over Him, He will not force us to love Him and He will not force us to be saved. This is a big reason why freedom to reject God is so essential.

There is a possibility that the human family relationship and the divine family relationship of the saved somehow requires that there be those that are unsaved. I say this with great caution and there are many restrictions and qualifications that could be made to the statement. In brief, however, let me suggest that the free will choices of the saved that bring them to salvation through God’s mercy and grace, somehow require interaction with the unsaved and those that may only later be saved. God knows that the fallen nature of man requires His divine intervention and grace to bring man to salvation. God works through men for the salvation of men. The Father even sent the man, Jesus, his only begotten son to provide the key to reconciling man to God. Through grace and through men preaching the gospel other men can know God. The interactions of men through their activities within the body of Christ bring men to Christ. Sometimes the actions of the unsaved assist in turning some toward God. In Romans 9:21-24, Paul addresses this very thing by saying, “Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”

It is important to note that this passage does not mean that the vessels of wrath do not have free will. It merely shows that God allowed them to come into being even though He knew they would freely choose a path to hell. The reason he did this and endured them with patience is to satisfy a greater good. That greater good is to make known the riches of his glory for the benefit of the vessels of mercy. Somehow this “making known of the riches of his glory” plays into the process of saving and sanctifying the vessels of mercy.

I myself have witnessed miracles of God’s mercy as have most believers. The miracles I have witnessed are the miracles of the heart, mind, and soul. It is in these miracles that the riches of God’s glory are made manifest and these manifestations lead to even more conversions of the heart, mind, and soul. The contrast between the great saints like Francis of Assisi and the murderous characters of history such as Hitler and Mao, assist in the conversion of many. It is both the vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath that “freely” serve as part of the means for bringing souls to salvation.

Again, I say all of this with caution and allow for the possibility of many qualifying statements. We are simply in the realm of theological speculation and not logical and empirical proofs. Speculations are, however, useful in shedding light on real possibilities.

 

[cynic]

I too will be as blunt as I can.

God does nothing without a purpose - so if he creates a soul IN THE KNOWLEDGE that it would end up in Hell, then he meant for that soul to end up in hell. That is predestination.

Your use of scripture support that…

Pax:

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”

It is important to note that this passage does not mean that the vessels of wrath do not have free will. It merely shows that God allowed them to come into being even though He knew they would freely choose a path to hell.

.

Except that God didn;t just “allow them to come into being”… he made them.

Pax:

It merely shows that God allowed them to come into being even though He knew they would freely choose a path to hell. The reason he did this and endured them with patience is to satisfy a greater good. That greater good is to make known the riches of his glory for the benefit of the vessels of mercy.

.

The God you describe is a cruel egotist, who makes evil to make good evident, therebye creating miserable souls who’s no other purpose in living is to make the good, or those open to his grace, look ‘more good’. To provide an example for others not to follow. Can you say then, that God loves his creation? yet that’s a major foundation of Chrirstian belief…

It still brings up questions about our ability to excericse free will, even if we acknowledge that, in theory, we have it, we cannot change a set outcome. So it becomes irrelevant, or perhaps relevant only to the fact that God can use it judge us. Yes God isn’t there forcing us to be be bad or to love him, but that doesn’t change our fate(s), according to your dogma.

 

[Pax]

Cynic,

Please take a deep breath and relax. Your rhetoric far exceeds any common sense or reasoned response. You are adamant in your view and that may be okay when you’re right. In this instance you have no justification for being so firmly entrenched in your thinking and your language and conclusions are off the chart.

My imprecisions and “speculations” are not designed to provide you with doctrinal teachings. The idea was to open your eyes to possibilities based on our rather limited view of this matter. I made reference to scripture. You are free to interpret the quoted scriptures and to see if you can arrive at a better answer. I would certainly welcome something like that from you.

You have made one severe mistake over the course of this discussion and you have failed to acknowledge it. You have not been able to support your position by overcoming the fact that knowledge and causality are not necessarily connected. Rather than simply criticizing everything, try analyzing things more completely. This you have made little effort to do. Try being more relaxed and open minded. Try praying on this subject as well. And remember, we are not in a position to judge God or to understand the mind of God.

I personally believe that the key to all of this is in the meaning of love, relationships, and free will. God’s omnipotence creates possibilities that exceed both our puny understandings and our inadequate knowledge. We cannot fathom all that goes into the mix. You seem to be starting from the assumption that the Creator’s foreknowledge equals “predetermined” actions. I have shown you that that there is a break in your logic when it comes to knowledge and causality. I prefer to start from the assumption that God is all good and that everything He does works for good.

If you want to discredit my assumption then your argument is not really with me. Instead, your argument is with God and with scripture. And one more thing…try not being so cynical

 

[Pax]

Just for the record, let me say that I do not believe that God is egotistical and do not believe that anything that I have said suggests such a thing. God doesn’t need anything and therefore is not self serving and egotistical. Man,on the other hand, has all kinds of needs and is, therefore, frequently self serving and egotistical. Only man can be egotistical since that is a purely human trait.

 

[cynic]

Pax:

You seem to be starting from the assumption that the Creator’s foreknowledge equals “predetermined” actions. I have shown you that that there is a break in your logic when it comes to knowledge and causality.

I have explained why I think that is. By starting us, while knowing the end, God has defined the end. Couldn’t be plainer.

That is of course if you have to believe in foreknowledge. I guess a lot of Catholics and Calvinists believe they are glorifying God more by believing that…