Were Judas's actions Predetermined?

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cynic:
I have explained why I think that is. By starting us, while knowing the end, God has defined the end. Couldn’t be plainer.

That is of course if you have to believe in foreknowledge. I guess a lot of Catholics and Calvinists believe they are glorifying God more by believing that…
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It couldn’t be plainer to you, but it certainly is not plain to me. Please go back and read my arguments concerning knowledge and causality. Then logically dissect them and provide a refutation. Once again, you have merely restated your position without providing logical argument. I will not bother responding again unless you engage the argument with logic rather than simply restating your position.
 
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cynic:
I have explained why I think that is. By starting us, while knowing the end, God has defined the end. Couldn’t be plainer.

That is of course if you have to believe in foreknowledge. I guess a lot of Catholics and Calvinists believe they are glorifying God more by believing that…
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But, you are wrong. Just because God knows how the story of your life ends, doesn’t mean it made you live it the way you did.
 
God knowing the future as completely settled does not help Him to act or influence things so that they will turn out the way He wants to. Once God knows what will occur at a specific moment concerning Judas or anyone or anything else, then He is unable to change it, because doing so would make His knowledge false.

Here is an analogy. If God were to know of the future incrementally, like fast forwarding a video tape, then once He brings it to a certain point and knows what the reality truly is it is too late to make any changes up to that point.

The only way that God could actively guarantee that every detail turns out exactly the way He wants it to is for Him to control or preordain every detail with present knowledge.
 
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allhers:
But, you are wrong. Just because God knows how the story of your life ends, doesn’t mean it made you live it the way you did.
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If God has knows with certainty every decision that you will make, then you are not free to do otherwise. If you could do other than what God knows you will certainly do, then God’s knowledge of the already settled future would be false.

So, you’re wrong on this allhers. If God knows for certain the end of a person prior to creating that specific universe, then that person only has the appearance of options or choices, since they must do what God knows they will do.

The only solution is recognizing that God has chosen to limit Himself so that He can enter into a true relationship with His creation. That God created a world that has a partly open future. God limits His power - He let’s us choose to work with Him. And, as a result, He limits His knowledge of the future because He does not determine or ordain the choices we will make. God does not always get what He wants (for example, Luke 7:30). Its not a risk-free world. God took the risk by creating this type of world that some would choose life and some would not, as an example.
 
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Pax:
It couldn’t be plainer to you, but it certainly is not plain to me. Please go back and read my arguments concerning knowledge and causality. Then logically dissect them and provide a refutation. Once again, you have merely restated your position without providing logical argument. I will not bother responding again unless you engage the argument with logic rather than simply restating your position.
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logic is a matter of opinion. I have done my best to explain how making us with knowledge of what we will do, predestines us. I think any sane person can at least see a connection. Technically it doesn’t take away free will, although free will is not at the center of the argument anyway…
 
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Pax:
I personally believe that the key to all of this is in the meaning of love, relationships, and free will. God’s omnipotence creates possibilities that exceed both our puny understandings and our inadequate knowledge. We cannot fathom all that goes into the mix. You seem to be starting from the assumption that the Creator’s foreknowledge equals “predetermined” actions. I have shown you that that there is a break in your logic when it comes to knowledge and causality. I prefer to start from the assumption that God is all good and that everything He does works for good.

If you want to discredit my assumption then your argument is not really with me. Instead, your argument is with God and with scripture.
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Its not the case that God simply works everything for good. He works together with all things for good. The word where we get synergy is used in Rom 8:28. God’s working is done synergisticly through our cooperation. Evidence of this is shown in passages like 1 Cor 3:9 where Paul says “For we are God’s fellow workers”.

Knowing the future as completely settled has NOTHING to do with free, loving relationships. If you really believe that God desires a loving relationship entered into freely, then you should have no problem believing that God works in the present to bring about the sort of future that He desires, yet does not always get His way. When God does not get His way, we typically call that sin. Sin is contrary to God’s will.
 
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cynic:
logic is a matter of opinion. I have done my best to explain how making us with knowledge of what we will do, predestines us. I think any sane person can at least see a connection. Technically it doesn’t take away free will, although free will is not at the center of the argument anyway…
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Well speaking of sanity, I was recently reading what some of the experts have to say on this very topic and here is what one had to say on EWTN’s website when someone asked him about predestination, etc…
(not word for word)…in summary…Leave higher explanations to the theologians otherwise you just confuse yourself and mess things up.
Pretty good advice. 👍
 
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TheOpenTheist:
If God has knows with certainty every decision that you will make, then you are not free to do otherwise. If you could do other than what God knows you will certainly do, then God’s knowledge of the already settled future would be false.

So, you’re wrong on this allhers. If God knows for certain the end of a person prior to creating that specific universe, then that person only has the appearance of options or choices, since they must do what God knows they will do.

The only solution is recognizing that God has chosen to limit Himself so that He can enter into a true relationship with His creation. That God created a world that has a partly open future. God limits His power - He let’s us choose to work with Him. And, as a result, He limits His knowledge of the future because He does not determine or ordain the choices we will make. God does not always get what He wants (for example, Luke 7:30). Its not a risk-free world. God took the risk by creating this type of world that some would choose life and some would not, as an example.
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You’re still free to do what you want, God just knows what you are going to do, He isn’t forcing you to do anything. You don’t seem to understand that knowing something and causing it to happen are two different things.
 
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TheOpenTheist:
Its not the case that God simply works everything for good. He works together with all things for good. The word where we get synergy is used in Rom 8:28. God’s working is done synergisticly through our cooperation. Evidence of this is shown in passages like 1 Cor 3:9 where Paul says “For we are God’s fellow workers”.
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I apologize if my paraphrase bothered you. I really don’t think we have a different view on this at all.
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TheOpenTheist:
Knowing the future as completely settled has NOTHING to do with free, loving relationships. If you really believe that God desires a loving relationship entered into freely, then you should have no problem believing that God works in the present to bring about the sort of future that He desires, yet does not always get His way. When God does not get His way, we typically call that sin. Sin is contrary to God’s will.
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I believe that God does get his way. His permissive will allows for our free will and that is part of God having his way as “the potter.” Free will is necessary for us to be fully human. God’s foreknowledge is not completely unrelated to our free will which is necessary for true loving relationships. The relationship of God’s foreknowledge and our free will and loving relationships is quite simple. We operate freely and enter into relationships and do what ever we do within the universe of God’s foreknowledge without the foreknowledge predetermining our actions. We are not robots and God allows us freedom to make choices. They are not related in the sense of dependency where God’s foreknowledge predetermines our actions.
 
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allhers:
You’re still free to do what you want, God just knows what you are going to do, He isn’t forcing you to do anything. You don’t seem to understand that knowing something and causing it to happen are two different things.
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If God knows for certain that you will do X at that specific moment then you are not free to do -X at that moment. According to your view, God knows for certain that X will occur and there is nothing that He can do about it. That’s a pretty sick view of God.

My view, the Open View, agrees with Scripture where God is shown thinking things like “perhaps” this will happen which reveals a partly open future. Here are some examples

Exodus 13:17 Then it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God did not lead them by way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest perhaps the people change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.

Jeremiah 26:2,3,13,18 Thus says the Lord: Stand in the court of the Lords house, and speak to all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lords house, all the words that I command you to speak to them. Do not diminish a word. 3 Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may repent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings. 13 Now therefore, amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God; then the Lord will repent concerning the doom that He has pronounced against you. 18 Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah, and spoke to all the people of Judah, saying, Thus says the Lord of hosts: Zion shall be plowed like a field, Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins, and the mountain of the temple like the bare hills of the forest. 19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah ever put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and seek the Lords favor? And the Lord repented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them. But we are doing great evil against ourselves.

Do you believe Scripture allhers? Do you believe that God thought and said perhaps? Or do you reject it because of your philosophy?
 
pax said
I believe that God does get his way.
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Every time? In every instance? Or does God not get His way at least sometimes.

you said
His permissive will allows for our free will and that is part of God having his way as “the potter.”
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God does not always get His way according to the potter/clay analogy that originates in Jer 18

Jeremiah 18:1-11 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. "Look, as the clay [is] in the potter’s hand, so [are] you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 "The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy [it,] 8 "if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will repent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 "And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it,] 10 "if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will repent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. 11 " Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, 'Thus says the LORD: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ "

This analogy shows God responding to the choices men make. It does not show God having His way in every instance. God wants holiness and good out of people, not wickedness and sin. God’s will is only the good.

you said
Free will is necessary for us to be fully human.
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I agree.
God’s foreknowledge is not completely unrelated to our free will which is necessary for true loving relationships.
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God does not need to know the future as totally settled for Him to have the sort of relationship He desires with us. In fact, if God knows the future as totally settled as you claim, then God is imprisoned by His knowledge and unable to do anything other than what He knows for sure will occur in the next moment on.

you claimed
The relationship of God’s foreknowledge and our free will and loving relationships is quite simple. We operate freely and enter into relationships and do what ever we do within the universe of God’s foreknowledge without the foreknowledge predetermining our actions.
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If God knows for certain that you will eat at The Olive Garden Tonight then you are not free to eat anywhere other than The Olive Garden. You only have the illusion of options.

you claimed
We are not robots and God allows us freedom to make choices. They are not related in the sense of dependency where God’s foreknowledge predetermines our actions.
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If God has indeed chosen not to predetermine our actions, then God cannot know with certainty some part of the future at the very least. God can know some things as inevitable, and other things as possible with varying degrees of probabilities. For God knows that tonight I may go to the Subway here in town for a meatball sub, the Crossroads Inn on 14&9 for the all-you-can-eat chicken/fish/shrimp buffet or the Great Wall in Huntington. And an outside shot at the Chef’s Hut or the House of Hunan in Ft Wayne. God knows that the most probable of those options is the Crossroads Inn, since I have been looking forward to that for the past few days.

Whichever option I choose, God will be able to work with that option and use it to bring about His will.
 
Dear Cynic,
while praying the Stations of the Cross yesterday at Marmora it was brought to my attention that I for one had not been charitable and had not answered your question clearly. For this I ask your forgiveness and will try to answer your question more clearly and completely.
The components are Free Will, Pre-destinationalism, sin and evil.
**God is the Author of Life ** and it is through Him that all have their life and it is through Him that their life story including all events have been ordained.
We are made in His image and likeness. Therefore our nature, before the fall of Adam and Eve, was as is His, Love.
To Sin is to separate ourselves from His and our loving nature to be selfish and do evil. Sin is a separation in nature. Evil is a measurement of the absence of Love. It is LIVE backwards. It is to use what is good in an unloving way.
**Pre-destinationalism ** means He did write the story of Creation incorportating into it all of our free will choices. He omitted no opportunity for us to freely choose any of our potential choices even as He knew which ones we would choose and which ones we would ignore. We will never be able to say that a choice was missing or that an available choice was, in itself, evil. Each and every moment in our lives as we shall clearly see at our final judgement was an opportunity to be used as a stumbling block or as a stepping stone. We will see that we were always free to curse the darkness or ask for light.
**Free Will ** would be a joke if we could only play the hand God dealt us and not have had the opportunity to accept or reject His plan for our lives. Therefore, before we are born, God show us our lives in a general, not a particular, way and we accept our life as revealed to us. Then he seals that memory from us. That is why four fifths of our brain is inaccessible to us as that is where this knowledge resides. From time to time God, to assist our spiritual journey, permits a memory to come into our conscious mind. These are the times when we will meet some one we have never met before and they will seem familiar or we will go some place we have never been and know exactly how the place is layed out.
God knew that we would fall and so He created the opportunity for all, including Lucifer, to repent of their evil doing and accept His Love.
When I saw how important each of our free will decisions are and how they impact others and all creation, I, in awe, said,“Wow, if such a tiny decision as to whether I have a drink or not and what type of drink I have could impact so many lives, I’ll bet that God gives us at least, at least, 10 examples of what the right decision is before we makle any decision!” His response was,“TRY TEN THOUSAND!”
In conclusion yes, God does script our lives and yes we do have to ‘play the role’ assigned to us as per our pre-birth agreement, as did Judas, but no one’s life leads to Hell, except through their free will. In my case, as an angel sent to me by God informed me, my life did not have to be as hard as it has been. It was that way because I rejected all the people and the help they had offered to make my life easier. May you and others not repeat my mistake.
 
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John-the-Seeker:
**Pre-destinationalism **means He did write the story of Creation incorportating into it all of our free will choices. He omitted no opportunity for us to freely choose any of our potential choices even as He knew which ones we would choose and which ones we would ignore. We will never be able to say that a choice was missing or that an available choice was, in itself, evil. Each and every moment in our lives as we shall clearly see at our final judgement was an opportunity to be used as a stumbling block or as a stepping stone. We will see that we were always free to curse the darkness or ask for light.
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never have argued the ability to choose was not open to us in theory. Only that, if the future is set and God already knows our fates ie the choices we will choose, then our existence is meaningless, from our perspective anyway.

As I said again and again, it’s unlikely that God does anything without a purpose, so if he created people with foreknowledge of their afterlife, or lack of, then he purposed it. If this is true, then we are nothing but animals, we are nothing, I don’t know why God would even bother making us if he knows the outcome. There’s nothing to be gained, no souls to be saved that aren’t already predestined to be saved. There’s no…point.
 
Realize that God’s foreknowledge of events is directly linked to our commiting them. Hopefully everyone here agrees that God is outside of matter. That being true he is outside of time. He sees the fullness of time at once.

How is life pointless? Read my first sentence as I think it addresses your point. Let’s say I end up going to heaven (hurrah!). Let’s also grant that God knew this from the moment of creation. Does that take away from the fact that I chose to do His will? No. If I end up going to hell, does that mean God screwed me over? Of course not. I still had the chance to be saved. Think about logically: if God already knows where I will end up, does it really affect how I will live? Only if he decides not to “waste” grace on someone who won’t be saved. But this does not seem realistic. Surely God opens up grace to everyone whether or not they will accept it.

To address the Bible passages cited a few posts ago, I would like to add that that is why I am a proponent of the historical-critical method of Biblical interpretation.
 
Aaron I.:
Let’s say I end up going to heaven (hurrah!). Let’s also grant that God knew this from the moment of creation. Does that take away from the fact that I chose to do His will?
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Yes.
 
Let’s say I watch a tape of the 1990 super bowl. I already know what will happen. Does that mean I am causing Norwood to lose the game, NO. Because I am not in any way affecting what will happen.

God sees our world like we would watch a tape because he is outside of it, just as we would are not a part of the tape. He knows what will happen, but does not affect it. Of course, that is wrong. He does affect it, but only in a positive sense. He can never force someone to act, but he can gently push them to act (providence).

You have said: “As I said again and again, it’s unlikely that God does anything without a purpose, so if he created people with foreknowledge of their afterlife, or lack of, then he purposed it. If this is true, then we are nothing but animals, we are nothing, I don’t know why God would even bother making us if he knows the outcome. There’s nothing to be gained, no souls to be saved that aren’t already predestined to be saved. There’s no…point.”

Please describe how we are animals, as there is simply no syllogism you remotely address that leads to it. Foreknowledge does not disprove free will. Think about the difference between prophecy and self-fulfilling prophecy. There were OT prophecies that Judas would kill Christ, but the fact that it would happen in no way brought it about. If I go out and kill somebody, God would have known that it would happen, but he doesn’t cause it. Keep in mind that only one set of actions will ever happen. I have the option of killing somebody or not tonight (I’m leaning towards the latter), but only one of them can occur.

“Why would God make us if he knows the outcome?” Tell me, why did he make us if he didn’t know the outcome? Because he was curious to see who would choose to be saved? No, he created us that we might share in the perfect love that exists between the persons of the trinity. That heavenly state is open to everyone should they choose to accept it. People who are “predetermined” to go to hell are so situated because it was known that they would waste God’s grace. Does this mean that God forsakes them that grace, no. He still gives them the grace and they still choose to ignore it.

Finally, don’t forget Occam’s razor. Don’t ignore what is right before your eyes for the intellectual sport of it.
 
Aaron I.:
“Why would God make us if he knows the outcome?” Tell me, why did he make us if he didn’t know the outcome? .
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perhaps because your choices then have meaning. Spontaneous acts. Not designed from the point of creation.

Accepting what you and most posters here say is to accept that human life has no intrinsic value. All that matters is that God is glorified. Which he will be regardless, if everything is predetermined.
 
Our actions are not determined at the moment of creation! They are known at the point of creation, but they are not determined. This is possible because God is outside of his creation. If he were limited to this realm as we are, then the only way he could guarantee that things would happen as he knows/thinks/wants is to destroy free will. This is not the case, though. He is outside of creation and can see it.

Human life has intrinsic value precisely because we are made in the image and likeness of God. That is the sole source of our worth. This does not diminish our worth in any way. The worth comes from God, but it is intrinsic to our being, so we in fact do have the value of which you speak.

Keep in mind that Catholics do not believe in Predestination in the sense of predetermination but rather as a foreknowledge on the part of God. If you post again, try to explain how foreknowledge necessitates loss of will.
 
Aaron I.:
Our actions are not determined at the moment of creation! They are known at the point of creation, but they are not determined. .
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this is deliberately contrary. No offence, but it doesn’t make sense. If he knows at creation, he purposes. At least the calvanists are honest about this.

again and again that I’ve said that I think that creating us in the knowledge of our every choice is virtually the same as predestination. Predestination involves as set future that cannot change. The Catholic version of a foreknowing God ‘outside of time’ involves a set future that cannot change. It brings up the question of why he would make something with a known future/fate, what meaning our choices have when thye don’t change anything. I like what my Islam believing friend says: If God already knows, why would he bother?
 
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