Were Judas's actions Predetermined?

[Catholic_Dude]

cynic:

again and again that I’ve said that I think that creating us in the knowledge of our every choice is virtually the same as predestination. Predestination involves as set future that cannot change. The Catholic version of a foreknowing God ‘outside of time’ involves a set future that cannot change. It brings up the question of why he would make something with a known future/fate, what meaning our choices have when they don’t change anything.

The problem is here your confining God to a box of your own making instead of the other way around. We are in the box and cant see out of this box but God can and has a very different view than us.
Its like when people said the earth was flat, what if they had a picture of the earth from space? big difference.
This is a good reply…

Breton:

Part of the problem with this discussion and others concerning predestination, the elect, free will, etc…is that we try to describe God’s existence with inadequate, human terms. Once we begin using language descriptive of time i.e. future, pre-whatever, fore-whatever, when, if, was, will be, etc…we immediately fall into a futile exercise of trying to describe something that is indescribable - a mystery. You can not talk about “when” did God know this or that and therefore decided this or that. There is no “when” where God is concerned.

God is all-knowing. Judas betrayed Jesus of his own free will. These two statements are not contradictory and are in harmony with Catholic teaching.

This is a serious error in Calvinism in general. They take some things as a given, but then other things they cant understand any other way. Example, Christians cant fully comprehend how God was able to be “confined” to a body when Jesus was born, yet they take this as a given. Calvinists take this as a given, yet they turn around and say things like free will CANT exist due to “predestination” and foreknowledge, etc. They then reread into the whole Bible and interpret it wearing the glasses that free will cant exist, and as Peter said, they end up twisting the scriptures to their own destruction.

 

[Breton]

From the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Predestination:

“Why is it that Peter the Apostle rose again after his fall and persevered till his death, while Judas Iscariot, his fellow-Apostle, hanged himself and thus frustrated his salvation? Though correct, the answer that Judas went to perdition of his own free will, while Peter faithfully co-operated with the grace of conversion offered him, does not clear up the enigma. For the question recurs: Why did not God give to Judas the same efficacious, infallibly successful grace of conversion as to St. Peter, whose blasphemous denial of the Lord was a sin no less grievous than that of the traitor Judas? To all these and similar questions the only reasonable reply is the word of St. Augustine (loc. cit., 21): “Inscrutabilia sunt judicia Dei” (the judgments of God are inscrutable).”

 

[Pax]

cynic:

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If he knows at creation, he purposes. At least the calvanists are honest about this.
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cynic,

You have been repeating this basic mantra from the outset of the discussion, but you have been shown numerous times how the connection between foreknowledge and causality can break down. I am asking you one more time to establish an argument to show that there can be no breakdown whatsoever between knowledge and causality. So far you have not even attempted to do this.

Try reading Ezekiel 18:21-32 and similar passages of scripture. There are numerous if/and statements concerning the evil and the good…those that will be saved/live and those that will be damned/die. Our free will operates fully within the universe of God’s knowledge and scripture makes this quite clear over and over again.

If you have free will then your life has “personal” meaning and purpose and you are not just another animal roaming the planet with a set of predetermined moves.

The fact that you do not understand this doesn’t matter. The fact that you cannot grasp the reasoning presented to you doesn’t matter. The fact that the explanations are imperfect and not sufficient for you doesn’t matter either. What matters is the truth. To say that God predestines people to hell is an egregious and blasphemous error. It isn’t scriptural and it isn’t logical. You should be able to accept the truth even though you cannot fully understand it. If your argument were air tight and you could prove that there is never a break between foreknowledge and causality then I could understand your position. So far none of this has happened. Mere repetition won’t make it happen either.

 

[cynic]

the argument was not about free will, but foreknowledge. If the future is known, it is set, if it is set, then free will operates in the hypothetical. Ie we >could< have done differently.

the question really is about he nature of God, why he creates us. Is it to glorify himself, or does he actually want communiion with a creature whos fate he is not certain of. Why offer grace to a being he knows isn’t going to accept it. Just for the principle? Who’s being ‘logical’? anyone can claim logic for themselves, or say the thing that seems most edifying of God or whatever. Sure a belieiving foreknowing God does emphasis his omnipotence…it ‘sounds’ more correct from that point of view…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

cynic:

the argument was not about free will, but foreknowledge. If the future is known, it is set, if it is set, then free will operates in the hypothetical. Ie we >could< have done differently.

the question really is about he nature of God, why he creates us. Is it to glorify himself, or does he actually want communiion with a creature whos fate he is not certain of. Why offer grace to a being he knows isn’t going to accept it. Just for the principle? Who’s being ‘logical’? anyone can claim logic for themselves, or say the thing that seems most edifying of God or whatever. Sure a belieiving foreknowing God does emphasis his omnipotence…it ‘sounds’ more correct from that point of view…

You need to take a step back and get off the TULIP train, it leads to despair and fatalism. Your one of the few who recognize the errors about the calvinist system, as we see here it drives people nuts when they realize that they turned God into a monster.

Free will doesnt operate on the hpothetical or else God wouldnt have bothered to talk to man. He wouldnt ask them questions or command them to do anything if they were preprogrammed with a prerecorded response, that would make God schizophrenic talking to Himself. Part of Christianity is recognizing that God revealed Himself in various ways, if you dont believe that then your not Christian. In this revelation we became enlightened to what God expects of us and what God is about. Because we are not God, what we see is not what He sees, we know some things like He is omnipotent, but we cant fully comprehend how this fits into other issues, so at the end of the day it is through faith that we say “Thy Will be done”.

The rest of your stuff is the question of the ages which no man can answer to the degree that each individual desires. This hunger the Catholic Church teaches is in every man and teaches that only being in communion with our Lord can satisfy that hunger.

 

[Magicsilence]

cynic:

the argument was not about free will, but foreknowledge. If the future is known, it is set, if it is set, then free will operates in the hypothetical. Ie we >could< have done differently.

the question really is about he nature of God, why he creates us. Is it to glorify himself, or does he actually want communiion with a creature whos fate he is not certain of. Why offer grace to a being he knows isn’t going to accept it. Just for the principle? Who’s being ‘logical’? anyone can claim logic for themselves, or say the thing that seems most edifying of God or whatever. Sure a belieiving foreknowing God does emphasis his omnipotence…it ‘sounds’ more correct from that point of view…

We are here but to glorify God.

He is kind enough to allow us a chance at salvation.

Because we dont and never will understand Him, sometimes its better just to accept things.

Trying to understand God is impossible.

 

[Philthy]

cynic:

Sorry but none of the replies really address the crux of it - Jesus HAD to be crucified, thus the events that lead up to this HAD to be predetermined, with NO possibility of an alternative.
What was going to happen, Judas decides differently, Jesus lives to a ripe old age?..no ofcourse not. In a sick way, Judas was doing what God wanted him to do. Even his suicide was part of prophecy.

Sorry I’m repeating myself, but free-will rhetoric does not answer this question

Yes it does, be patient and listen.
Im confused by your terminology and, possibly, your logic. You have concluded that Jesus HAD to be crucified - and I ask,“Why?” And your answer will be to fulfil prophecy and salvific requirements, etc,etc. Fine. Does that mean that Judas was incapable of chosing something different, or simply that his choices were known in advance? There is a difference. Simply because they were known in advance does not, of necessity, mean that he was not free to choose differently. Foreknowledge of an event has no influence on the exercise of free will at the time of the event. It simply means that the foreknowledge and the exercise of that will both revealed the same end.
Your choice of the term “predetermined” does not convey this subtle distinction. It is better to say that the outcome is known in advance.
Lets do a thought experiment:
Does prior knowledge of a variable outcome event influence the actual outcome of that event?

Lets say I ask you a question, such as “Will you pray for me tomorrow?”

You don’t know the answer, and you are free to choose tomorrow what you will do. Now…lets assume that time travel is a reality. My friend IAM is able to travel forward in time. IAM was present when I asked you," Will you pray for me tomorrow?" and he immediately took off one day into the future and gained the knowledge of your choice. He returned immediately back to the present and shared his knowledge with no one.
Now as it turns out, when that tomorrow actually came to pass, you exercised your free will and prayed for me. Thank you!
Did his knowledge of the event determine the outcome? No - it COINCIDED with it. Did the knowledge eliminate your free will?NO -You still had free will AND the outcome was fixed. Interesting, isn’t it?
That is how I view God’s eternal perspective and our temporal perspective.

Phil

 

[cynic]

Quite frankly i don’t give a monkeys about free will and catholic dogma regarding it (not catholic). The problem is a God who foreknows every choice we will make, whether he gives us grace is not the issue, whether we have free will is not the issue, it’s that we can’t make choices outside of his creation, we are here to serve his puroposes only. That is the monstrous God mentioned above.

 

[Philthy]

cynic:

Quite frankly i don’t give a monkeys about free will and catholic dogma regarding it (not catholic). The problem is a God who foreknows every choice we will make, whether he gives us grace is not the issue, whether we have free will is not the issue, it’s that we can’t make choices outside of his creation, we are here to serve his puroposes only. That is the monstrous God mentioned above.

There are no choices to make outside of his creation, only choices to make within his creation - which we are a part of. What are you talking about?
I don’t know if God foreknows every choice we will make.
Free will is definitely an issue.
The fact that we are here to serve his purposes in no way makes God a monster. Especially if his purposes are perfectly good.

Phil

 

[Aaron_I]

cynic:

whether we have free will is not the issue, it’s that we can’t make choices outside of his creation

Making choices IS free will, so I guess free will IS the issue. Unless you are putting stress on the “outside of creation part”. Frankly we can’t make choices outside of creation because we are a part of creation. We do have free will however, and can choose to do anything not inherently impossible.

cynic:

we are here to serve his puroposes only. That is the monstrous God mentioned above.

Are you serious? No doubt you are quite proud of your intellectual abilities, and you have made some good points despite showing a propensity for ignoring the obvious; but here you sound like a whiny little girl. No[t too much] offense, but it is childish to dismiss authority on a universal basis. God doesn’t need us to increases his glory. “I Am Who Am”. Think about it. He is that which is. He is the very existence of the universe. How can we improve upon the very essence of everything? We can’t. So is God vain and simply desires our praise? You can think that if you so choose, cynic. I for one will choose to believe that God desires for us to share in the perfect love he shares within himself (Trinity).

 

[migurl]

Say not “it was God’s doing that I fell away”, for what He hates He does not do. Say not “It was He who set me astray”; for He has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the Lord hates, He does not let it befall those who fear Him. When God, in the beginning, created man, He made him subject to his own free choice. If yuo choose, you can keep the commandments. It is loyalty to do His will. There are set before you fire and water; whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. The eyes of God see all He has made; He understands man’s every deed. No man does he command to sin, to non does he give strength for lies." Sirach chapter 15 starting with verse 11.

This is a quote of mine from another thread, comes directly from the Bible.

 

[Pentecost2005]

It appears that no one has made reference to the Catechism:

599 Jesus’ violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God’s plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: “This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.” This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination,” he includes in it each person’s free response to His grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

In other words, He used our evil to bring about good, as has been said before.

Nevertheless, it remains a mystery. Cynics tend to hate that sort of thing.

 

[migurl]

A lot of people who believe in predestination do not give a hoot about what the catecism says.

 

[Breton]

migurl:

Say not “it was God’s doing that I fell away”, for what He hates He does not do. Say not “It was He who set me astray”; for He has no need of wicked man. Abominable wickedness the Lord hates, He does not let it befall those who fear Him. When God, in the beginning, created man, He made him subject to his own free choice. If yuo choose, you can keep the commandments. It is loyalty to do His will. There are set before you fire and water; whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him. The eyes of God see all He has made; He understands man’s every deed. No man does he command to sin, to non does he give strength for lies." Sirach chapter 15 starting with verse 11.

This is a quote of mine from another thread, comes directly from the Bible.

Trouble is, Sirach doesn’t appear in the protestant bible; its one of those books that was tossed during the reformation. So to use this in a discussion(?) with protestants gets you no where.

 

[migurl]

I understand that, but I’m not sure cynic is protestant or any kind of religion. Most logical people believe that removing parts of an historical document isn’t legit, so since Sirach existed in the original Hebrew text, catholics and no-protestants should be able to accept that passage as an answer to this question.

 

[Melchior]

cynic:

If God does not cause us to sin, then in theory could Judas have chosen a different path? I don’t see how he could have, the crucifiction had to happen, the betrayel had to happen, and even his subsequent suicide was part of prophecy (the field where nothing would grow…). This is different from God knowing the future, since no other possibility could be allowed to Judas.

Is this an example of Calvinist predestination?

His betrayal was predetermined and he freely chose to do it. A paradox indeed. But those who say it was not predermined need to deal with both Jesus and the OT prophecy that said the betrayal would take place - not simply could take place. In some sense this was Judas destiny as distasteful as that may seem to our finite, little minds.

Mel

 

[migurl]

Calvinists believe in double predestination. Predestination in a dictionary sense means that things are going to happen because they were meant to by God in HIs infinite wisdom. Double predestination means that everything is predetermined and freewill does not exist, therefore we are not responsible for our actions.

 

[cynic]

migurl:

Calvinists believe in double predestination. Predestination in a dictionary sense means that things are going to happen because they were meant to by God in HIs infinite wisdom. Double predestination means that everything is predetermined and freewill does not exist, therefore we are not responsible for our actions.

these are just words, catholic labels, non-sensical distinctions - “double predestination” oh please. If everything that happens is meant by God, then everything is right, there’s no evil because nothing happens against Gods will. Ba duh.

 

[John-the-Seeker]

cynic:

these are just words, catholic labels, non-sensical distinctions - “double predestination” oh please. If everything that happens is meant by God, then everything is right, there’s no evil because nothing happens against Gods will. Ba duh.

All that is create was created by God who is Good therefore all that is created is good, except for man, who is very good.

Evil does exist but not as a creation of God. Evil is the representation of the lack of God’s goodness and love. Just as darkness cannot be measured, only light or the absence there of, just as coldness cannot be measured, just the absence of heat, so also evil cannot be measured except as a measure of the absence of Love.

Nothing happens without the permission of God. There is no energy except His. There is no life except His. These He shares with us and permits us to choose to use His gifts to imitate Him or to rebel against Him. To choose to allow His light , His goodness to manifest in our lives or not. Evil is live backwards. In the backward use of His life we live backward. Even so the Supreme Being who has chosen to share all with us including His free will, our free use of which He protects to extremes that would amaze us, still is able, through the foreknowledge of, but not the responsibility for, our free will decisions, to write the Story of Creation, including our own individual chapters, without limiting either His or our free will! The word history would be more correctly written and understood if it were expressed as His Story.

 

[migurl]

Catholics didn’t write the dictionary, nor did we tell Calvin what to believe. He chose to define hid beliefs as such, look it up. God TOLD Adam and Eve not to eat from one tree, but, satan being the sneaky guy he is, decided to put ideas into Eve’s head and poof! We have the first sin. God warned them, but they CHOSE to do evil. Sin is simply humans deciding to go against God’s will. Growing up, most kids disobeyed their parents. Try this: If I want to go to a party with my friends, but my parents say no because it is a school night and there is no parental supervision, but I chose to sneak out anyway, did they make me do it? No, sure I may feel they gave me no choice, but I had a choice. I could have choosen to obey and remain at home or I could choose to sneak out and do my will instead. Humans are like that in respect to God. He put the rules down but we aren’t brainwashed zombies that blindly do his will. We do His will because we love Him, we trust Him, and that is how we show our love. Just like couples show their love by trusting eachother and doing nice things for one another. True love cannot be bought, nor can it be forced, it must be completely free to be true.