Were Judas's actions Predetermined?

[Melchior]

migurl:

Calvinists believe in double predestination. Predestination in a dictionary sense means that things are going to happen because they were meant to by God in HIs infinite wisdom. Double predestination means that everything is predetermined and freewill does not exist, therefore we are not responsible for our actions.

Most Calvinists do not believe in double predestination. And your definition of double predestination is, respectfully, not correct.

Double predestination is the idea that God not only predestined those who would be saved but also predestined those who would be damned - some say he actively predestined them - this is commonly known as double predestination. Free will is a different issue. Calvinist who mostly believe that God predestines some to salvation and others he leaves to their own free will to do as they please. The end result is the same. And since we are all sinners their will is to rebel against God. It is through the Divine act of regenaration that the someones will becomes inclined towards God and therefore feely chooses to embrace Christ.

Calvinist believe in free will. But they also believe we do not have libertarian free will. To believe that would be Pelagian. And example would be a dog. Dog’s have free will to act according to their nature. It is not in a dog’s nature to drive a car. Therefore the dog’s free will is limited to it’s nature. Same with humans. Our free will is limited by our nature. Left to our own sinful nature we will mostly do evil. With God’ s grace our will becomes inclined towards him.

Sorry but I felt the need to clarify. Calvinist beliefe should not be mispresented. Jsut as Catholic belief should not.

Remember Predestintion is a Catholic dogma. Predestination to Hell is not. But to eternal life it is. Therefore the same free-will dillemna exists in Catholicism. God is sovereign and man is free. But only God’s will is never thwarted. Therefore He must intervene in some sense in all human events. Large and small. This should be comforting to all Christians. Would we rather He not intervene providentially?

Mel

 

[CindyGia]

Pax:

Possiblities? God could have chosen any number of ways to redeem us including simply willing it without any interaction with us whatsoever. God’s choice was merely to decide what possibility he thought was the most desireable. He chose to lay down his life for his friends. There is no greater love than this. Judas willing played his part. God never forced Judas and he never forced Ted Bundy to commit his crimes either. Neither does he force me or you to sin. We freely choose it.

Without reading all these post (too long and tiring) I seem to agree with Pax. The thing is; Jesus HAD to die. The Pharisees where going to get Him one way or the other!!! They didn’t need Judas to kill Him!

Even if Judas didn’t betray Him, Jesus would have still been murdered. Judas used his free will in betraying Jesus, which God foresaw. It so happened that the Pharisees “got” to Jesus, by way of Judas. Regardless, the Passion of the Lord would have happened anyway, with or without Judas. The Pharisees would have found Jesus in the Garden anyway, with or without Judas. His Passion had to take place on that night. But Judas chose to betray Jesus. God knew Judas’ heart, and thus allowed the scene to be played out through Judas betrayal. The thing to keep in mind is that no matter what, the Pharisees were going to “get” Him!!!.

 

[migurl]

I apologize for my bad definition, I couldn’t find the words! Silly me! Any ways, The dilema tha calvinists face is very different. God does not damn people to hell, he warns us against it and offers us all the tools we need to avoid hell. It is up to us to use those tools, He won’t force us to because He decided to give us free will because He knows that forced love is not real love, it is empty and will not give us the strength to carry our crosses and fight temptation. Because of Adam and Eve, God set up Jesus’ sacrifice to save us from ourselves, but He didn’t make Judas do what he did, he had plenty of oppurtunities to stop what he was doing, but he believed he was right. Becuase God knew this was going to Hppen, isn’t plausable that He revealed this to believers from OT times so that the people could prepare for Christ’s coming? He told us what was going to happen so that we could see Jesus! I mean, what greater thing that meeting Christ!? He promised the Jews that the Messaih would come, and He did, but many chose not to believe it. Free will and God’s foreknowledge, but not double predestination.

 

[Melchior]

Hi Migurl,

No problem about the definintion. I was just trying to be helpful.

Two things:

1. I think it is accurate to say that God does damn people to Hell. They choose it but He pronounces the judgement. After Hell is God’s punishment.
2. You said Free will and God’s foreknowledge, but not double predestination.

Foreknowledge is certainly one undertsnding allowed by the Catholic church. but not the only one. Foreknowledge, after all is not Predestination. One is knowing the other is determining an outcome prior to it happening. The Augustistinian/Thomistic view is that God predetermines based on His own private counsel who will be saved. Not based on foreknowledge but on His good pleasure. I think this is the more Biblical approach personally. Since God knowing and God causing does not has the same results the dillemna of free will in never resolved. If God makes people who he foreknows will be saved it has to be also that He is responsible from first to last in their salvation. Since her determines our personalities, families, location, era etc.

So while I agree with you about double predestination. The dillemna is this. Whether God chooses to damn or not. He does choose to create people He knows will spend an eternity in Hell in He creates them - yet he still does.

In other words foreknowledge cannot replace Predestination. By definintion (there is that word again ) they have different meaning. One means to know something before it happens. The other means to determine an otucome before it happens. Since Predestination is a dogma. I find it hard to believe so many catholic lean toward Molina against Augustine and Aquinas.

Better to say predestination is true - but it is a mystery how. Than to try an logically explain it.

Mel

 

[Philthy]

Melchior:

His betrayal was predetermined and he freely chose to do it. A paradox indeed. But those who say it was not predermined need to deal with both Jesus and the OT prophecy that said the betrayal would take place - not simply could take place. In some sense this was Judas destiny as distasteful as that may seem to our finite, little minds.

Mel

Would you please distinguish between “predetermined” and “foreknown(known in advance)” and “destiny”? You seem to use them interchangeably.

Phil

 

[Melchior]

Philthy:

Would you please distinguish between “predetermined” and “foreknown(known in advance)” and “destiny”? You seem to use them interchangeably.

Phil

Actually I make the distinction in the post right above yours. Okay, I am being lazy but I swear it’s there!

Predetermination and foreknowledge are definately two different things. Sorry If I was not clear on that.

Mel

 

[migurl]

It is a tough one to explain, but God says in the Bible that we have free will, so I believe we do. He also told us that certain things are going to happen. I think it makes sense that he’d tell His children, you know, a warning like earthly parents give all the time about driving careful, the weather will be bad, eat your veggies etc. He’s a good Father.