Were Not Six Excommunicated in 1988?

[Thomas58]

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop Antonio De Castro Mayer, consecrator and co-consecrator respectively of the four Bishops were excommunicated as well in 1988 were they not?

In Benedict XI’s letter accompanying the Summorum pontificum of July 7, 2007, he stated that the Tridentine Mass was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted. This would seem to at least give some creditability to the actions of Archbishop Lefebvre.

Surely without the actions of Archbishop Lefebvre there is a possibility that the Latin Mass would have been lost to the Church. Without Archbishop Lefebvre we would not today have societies like the Fraternity of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King dedicated to the Tridentine Mass and of course, Summorum pontificum would never have been written, freeing the beautiful Latin Mass to the whole Church.

So why did Benedict’s wonderful act of charity in lifting the excommunications of the four SSPX Bishops not extend to Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Mayer?

I would be interested in hearing thoughts on this.

 

[PaulJason]

I believe, but am not 100% sure, it is because Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Mayer are deceased.

 

[tobinatorstark]

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop Antonio De Castro Mayer, consecrator and co-consecrator respectively of the four Bishops were excommunicated as well in 1988 were they not?

In Benedict XI’s letter accompanying the Summorum pontificum of July 7, 2007, he stated that the Tridentine Mass was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted. This would seem to at least give some creditability to the actions of Archbishop Lefebvre.

Surely without the actions of Archbishop Lefebvre there is a possibility that the Latin Mass would have been lost to the Church. Without Archbishop Lefebvre we would not today have societies like the Fraternity of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King dedicated to the Tridentine Mass and of course, Summorum pontificum would never have been written, freeing the beautiful Latin Mass to the whole Church.

So why did Benedict’s wonderful act of charity in lifting the excommunications of the four SSPX Bishops not extend to Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Mayer?

I would be interested in hearing thoughts on this.

Bendict XI didn’t write that letter. He died in 1304. Pope Benedict the XVI wrote that letter. I am not sure if Lefebvre and Mayer are also cleared since they aren’t living anymore. Also a question to ponder, if Lefebreve and Mayer weren’t cleared but the other 4 were, would going to an SSPX Mass now qualify as fulfilling your Sunday obligation?

 

[3Sanctus]

Keep in mind all that’s been said is that the four consecrated by Lafebvre and De Castro Mayer are not excommunicated as of the date of that letter. The SSPX has not been regularized at all, nor has anything been said about attendance at their Masses and reception of the Sacraments for their priests. Unless I’m missing something this means that SSPX is still in that place where they’re an option for faithful Catholics, but not ideal.

I’m not an expert on the subject to say the least, but the jubilance of some people seems to ignore the fact there are still some issues to work out. There is (or at least was) an article on the homepage of New Advent discussing this, which I would recommend to anyone interested in the whole situation with the SSPX.

In Christian Unity.
Stephen

 

[603304529]

Bendict XI didn’t write that letter. He died in 1304. Pope Benedict the XVI wrote that letter. I am not sure if Lefebvre and Mayer are also cleared since they aren’t living anymore. Also a question to ponder, if Lefebreve and Mayer weren’t cleared but the other 4 were, would going to an SSPX Mass now qualify as fulfilling your Sunday obligation?

Mgr Camille Perl stated a while ago - the details are on this forum in multiple different threads - that an SSPX Mass does indeed fulfill your Sunday obligation. And that was before the “excomms” were lifted.

Which is a relief. Since 99.something% of Masses that I have attended since I was born 27.something years ago have been SSPX Masses…

 

[tobinatorstark]

Mgr Camille Perl stated a while ago - the details are on this forum in multiple different threads - that an SSPX Mass does indeed fulfill your Sunday obligation. And that was before the “excomms” were lifted.

Which is a relief. Since 99.something% of Masses that I have attended since I was born 27.something years ago have been SSPX Masses…

It does on strict sense, but not in all cases

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=130857

I am sure the SSPX has wonderful masses, but I refuse to attend one unless the Pope explicitly says it will fulfill the Sunday obligation

 

[thistle]

I believe, but am not 100% sure, it is because Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Mayer are deceased.

Wasn’t the excommunication of St Joan of Arc lifted after she was deceased?

 

[chevalier]

Wasn’t the excommunication of St Joan of Arc lifted after she was deceased?

That excommunication was a political thing by a bishop cooperating with the English. When the French regained Rouen, an appeal was held and the Saint was acquitted a year later, the tribunal being found in violation of the law (wiki). Seems the excommunication was annulled, not even just lifted, and rightfully so.

 

[PrayForMeStJude]

Wasn’t the excommunication of St Joan of Arc lifted after she was deceased?

There have been many official declarations from Rome (curial officials speaking on behalf of the pope) which say that SSPX masses fulfill the sunday obligation, so long as you attend them out of attachment to the old rite, no valid tridentine mass is said elsewhere, and you do not attend solely out of contempt for Rome or the Holy Father.

 

[Keepthefaith07]

They will be in time. Their are too many prelates still around in Rome that would have egg on their faces if that were to happen right now. I have to admit that I was pleasantly surprised by both the Motu Proprio and the lifting of the excommunications. It speaks very highly of our Holy Father who as Cardinal Ratzinger led the talks with ArchBishop Lefebvre. One point to consider is this: In the lifting of the “excommunications”, the bishops were not required to do anything. They did not have to recite the Creed, retract their positions, nothing. Obviously, they were never out of the Church. The false accusations of Schism were allowed to perpetuate unjustly. Were we not told for decades that the TLM was forbidden? That lie was allowed to perpetuate as well by men who knew better. Does the Holy Father have to spell everything out to some of you folks? Get over your prejudices and recognize a good thing when you see it.

 

[3Sanctus]

Keep in mind that the excommunications were lifted as of the date of the statement that declared them to be lifted. Nothing was explicitly said about the state of these four men before that date - they may have been excommunicated…they may not have been. As far as I’m aware nothing has been definitively said at this point on that period, and I see it as likely to be avoided/ignored as being a minor point at best - I think the Holy Father may well leave that issue be and work on what he sees as more serious issues within the Church.

Also, keep in mind nothing - at all - was said about the two consecrating bishops. At this point His Holiness may well consider Lefebvre to have died outside of communion with the Church or he may consider him to have died in Christ. Frankly, I hope we can show due honor to all such brothers of ours - their lives deserve dignity regardless of what may have occurred - and not presume to judge publicly one way or another as that is not our God-appointed role as laypeople.

Of course holding a personal opinion may be different, as long as it doesn’t conflict with the Church’s official stance on the matter in a way that is not allowed, but I don’t see any reason why we in the Church Militant should worry about the the two unmentioned bishops. If it were truly of imminent importance I think the Holy Father would have been direct about the two consecrating bishops and since he wasn’t I’d imagine we can at the very least hope for the best for His Grace Archbishop Lefebrve, may his soul rest in peace.

In Christ’s redemptive Love for mankind.
Stephen

 

[ProVobis]

One point to consider is this: In the lifting of the “excommunications”, the bishops were not required to do anything. They did not have to recite the Creed, retract their positions, nothing.

The bishops are at least temporarily prohibited from ordaining more SSPX priests. There is a little bit of price there.

As far as fulfilling your Sunday obligation, attending any Catholic rite, including the Eastern Orthodox church, will suffice. If it’s to your spiritual advantage, according to another canon law, it’s ok to receive the sacraments there.

“Can. 1248 §1 The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a catholic rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day.”

“Can. 844 §2 Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage commends it, and provided the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, Christ’s faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a catholic minister, may lawfully receive the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick from non catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.”

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop Antonio De Castro Mayer, consecrator and co-consecrator respectively of the four Bishops were excommunicated as well in 1988 were they not?

In Benedict XI’s letter accompanying the Summorum pontificum of July 7, 2007, he stated that the Tridentine Mass was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted. This would seem to at least give some creditability to the actions of Archbishop Lefebvre.

Surely without the actions of Archbishop Lefebvre there is a possibility that the Latin Mass would have been lost to the Church. Without Archbishop Lefebvre we would not today have societies like the Fraternity of St. Peter and the Institute of Christ the King dedicated to the Tridentine Mass and of course, Summorum pontificum would never have been written, freeing the beautiful Latin Mass to the whole Church.

So why did Benedict’s wonderful act of charity in lifting the excommunications of the four SSPX Bishops not extend to Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Mayer?

I would be interested in hearing thoughts on this.

I don’t think anyone answered it, but
Excomm’s are tools used to help people get back into the church. It’s like detention at school.

That said, as far as I know and have read, the excomm’s of Arch. Lefebvre and Mayer ceased to exist upon their death, because excomm’s can only be given to living people, and they were no longer living (does detention still apply to you if you die?)

 

[thistle]

There have been many official declarations from Rome (curial officials speaking on behalf of the pope) which say that SSPX masses fulfill the sunday obligation, so long as you attend them out of attachment to the old rite, no valid tridentine mass is said elsewhere, and you do not attend solely out of contempt for Rome or the Holy Father.

What does that have to do with my post about Joan of Arc??

 

[Seatuck]

There is more to be concerned about than Mass. I believe they are still suspended and do not enjoy priviliges in whatever diocese the chapels reside. The marriages and confessions they are doing are still invalid.
As far as I know.

 

[Keepthefaith07]

The bishops are at least temporarily prohibited from ordaining more SSPX priests. There is a little bit of price there.

 I don't see what would hamper them from ordaining Priests.  Things go on as/is while all of the particulars are worked out.  The issues remaining will take time to work out.  The lifting of the excommunications does change everything, and brings the whole situation into a new phase.  Either things will be straightened out and the SSPX will regularize their situation, or things will turn even more sour and increase the division.  Lets hope and pray that the former is the intent of both sides.

Viva Cristo Rey!

 

[cam100]

Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and Bishop Antonio De Castro Mayer, consecrator and co-consecrator respectively of the four Bishops were excommunicated as well in 1988 were they not?

So why did Benedict’s wonderful act of charity in lifting the excommunications of the four SSPX Bishops not extend to Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop Mayer?

I would be interested in hearing thoughts on this.

Excommunication applies mainly to living person, except that a person who dies in such a state is not permitted a Catholic burial. So, for the deceased and buried Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop De Castro Mayer, it is really a moot point if we are talking about their current state. Theoretically, I suppose an excommunication might be “lifted” from a deceased person to given them a Catholic burial, but the two bishops already were given a Catholic burial by their followers.

 

[3Sanctus]

I guess I’m wrong here, given the sound of the discussion about the two deceased bishops (Requiescet in Pacem), but I thought if you died in an actual state of excommunication that you went to Hell. What happens if you are in excommunication when you die? Is it like mortal sin?

 

[cam100]

I guess I’m wrong here, given the sound of the discussion about the two deceased bishops (Requiescet in Pacem), but I thought if you died in an actual state of excommunication that you went to Hell. What happens if you are in excommunication when you die? Is it like mortal sin?

Only God can determine if a person is sent to hell. Excommunication is actually intended to be remedial, that is, it is intended to cause the recipient to pause and reconsider his actions, and hopefully reform. Today, excommunication is only used for sins that are objectively mortal, but only God actually knows the true state of one’s soul.

 

[3Sanctus]

Thank you very much for the information Cam100. Can you tell I went through RCIA on a college campus?

You can’t receive the Sacraments while excommunicated, can you? Oh, and feel free to PM a source to me if you’d rather not play twenty questions like this.

Thanks again!
Stephen