Were some of Jesus' killers Christians?

[Steven_Merten]

Tens of thousands had been baptized by John and accepted Jesus as their Saviour by Palm Sunday. By Holy Thursday, many of those same people now chanted, “Crucify him!” Some Catholics claim that John’s baptism is only of repentance and not “sacramental” therefore John’s baptism does not make one a Christian, therefore, it was only Jews, not Christians who killed Jesus. Is it only because John’s baptism does not make one a Christian that the Church can boldly claim it was the Jews and not the Jews and the Christians who killed Jesus?

In modern dialogue with the Jews, would it not help if either A. the Church admitted that some of Jesus’ killers were Christians, Or B. The Church explained that it is only because there was no way for followers of Jesus, though baptized by John, to be “Sacramentally” baptized Christians which made the killers of Jesus all Jews? While it is nice to think of the killers of Jesus as all Jews, is this fair to the Jews?

Many people today verbally force their way into the Kingdom of God through baptism. They claim they have accepted Jesus, are baptized and therefore they verbal demand that they are already part of the Kingdom of God and judgment day in front of Jesus is unneeded. The Pharisees also seized baptism and circumcision to verbally force their way into the Kingdom of God, at the preaching of John.

In front of sinners and Pharisees, Jesus said that it is not the self-righteous Pharisees, but the repentant tax collectors and prostitutes who will enter the Kingdom of God. It seems that it is this loss of worldly glorification as God’s chosen few, whether claimed through circumcision or baptism, that caused the Pharisees to envyously initiate Christ’s death.

Jesus seems to point to those verbally forcing their way into the Kingdom of God through John’s baptism, as His killers. What do you think?

Please visit geocities.com/athens/forum/3325/10.htm

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten

www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

**NAB MAT 3:8 **
They were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins. When he saw that many of the Pharisees and Sadducees were stepping forward for this bath, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who told you to flee from the wrath to come? Give some evidence that you mean to reform. Do not pride yourselves on the claim, ‘Abraham is our father.’ I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these very stones.”

**NAB LUK **16:16

"The law and the prophets were in force** until John. From his time on, the good news of God’s kingdom has been proclaimed, and people of every sort are forcing their way in.**

CONTINUED.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Continued from above.

NAB MAT 11:11

"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least **born into the Kingdom of **God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer’s time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force."

NAB MAT 21:37

"Finally he sent his son to them, thinking, “They will respect my son.’ When they saw the son, the tenants said to one another, 'Here is the one who will inherit everything. Let us kill him and then we shall have his inheritance!” With that they seized him, dragged him outside the vineyard, and killed him."

NAB MAT 12:14

When the Pharisees were outside they began to plot against him to find a way to destroy him.

Please visit geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3325/10.htm

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Teresa9]

Dear friend

We ALL killed Him with our sins, Pilate condemned Him to death by the lack of his efforts to set Jesus free which he could have done…the whole world from beginning of time until it’s end brought about Jesus’ salvific death, The greatest sin was that of the person who delivered Jesus to the hand of His executioners, and that person was Judas, a disciple and follower of Christ, the one who betrayed Him. Now Judas may well be in heaven or hell, we do not know…as for the rest we do not know either…

In our sins we all betray Him, in Him our betrayal is forgiven …

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[puzzleannie]

John the Baptist did not found the Catholic church, Jesus Christ did. John did not Baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Only Christ, among all those baptized by John, was so anointed, and not by the action of John but by the action of God. therefore those baptized by John did not become Catholic through that baptism of repentance, but by later baptism by water and the Trinitarian formula prescribed by Christ and by the Holy Spirit (and some, by the fire of martydom).

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Every one of us is one of Jesus’ killers through our sins.

We might just as well have held the hammer that drove the nails into his hands and feet, have shove the spear into his side, have pounded the crown of thorns into his scalp. I was our sins that put him there!

Deacon Ed

 

[JimG]

Of course Christians are responsible for Christ’s death. All of us. As well as all other people, whom he also came to save.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello to all responders,

So why do you think the Jews felt Mel Gibsons “Passion” was anti-semetic if Mel was displaying early Catholics as being equal in guilt to the Jews in the condemnation and crucifixion of Jesus? When most people think of those who kill Jesus, they do not automatically associate an Apostle and baptized (by John) followers of Jesus as “the Jews who killed Jesus”. I think that if the Pope would clarify that it is just as much early Catholics who murdered Jesus as the Jews, this would go a long way toward clearing up modern day misunderstandings between Christians and Jews.

We know that it is Jesus and John who first preached of the Kingdom of God. Jesus tells us that when John first preached of the Kingdom, many violent men started forcing their way into the Kingdom of God. Jesus preaches that these men, who force their way into the Kingdom of God through John’s baptism, are evil and not really in possession of the Kingdom of God. These evil, baptized by John, men now plan the murder of Jesus to protect their image as the chosen few in possession of the Kingdom of God that Jesus and John preach of. The evil plot to murder Jesus seems to germinate in the origins of Christianity rather than the Jewish religion as many have believed. What do you think?

Please visit geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3325/10.htm

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

NAB LUK 16:16
**
"The law and the prophets were in force until John. From his time on, the good news of God’s kingdom has been proclaimed, and people of every sort are forcing their way in.**

NAB MAT 11:11

"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least **born into the Kingdom of **God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer’s time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force."

**NAB MAT 3:8 **

They were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins. When he saw that many of the Pharisees and Sadducees were stepping forward for this bath, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who told you to flee from the wrath to come? Give some evidence that you mean to reform. Do not pride yourselves on the claim, ‘Abraham is our father.’ I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these very stones.”
**NAB MAT **12:14

When the Pharisees were outside they began to plot against him to find a way to destroy him.

 

[prodromos]

Steven Merten:

Tens of thousands had been baptized by John and accepted Jesus as their Saviour by Palm Sunday. By Holy Thursday, many of those same people now chanted, “Crucify him!”

How do you hope to prove this statement?

John.

 

[prodromos]

Steven Merten:

Jesus tells us that when John first preached of the Kingdom, many violent men started forcing their way into the Kingdom of God.

I’m afraid you greatly misunderstand what Jesus is saying in Matthew 11:12.
To enter the Kingdom of God requires struggle and discipline. It requires overcoming our passions of lust, anger, pride etc. which is not something that can be done easily but requires violence.

“If you do not feel like praying, you have to force yourself! The Holy Fathers say that prayer with force is higher than prayer unforced. You do not want to, but force yourself. The Kingdom of Heaven is taken by force.”

“In order to pray a man must struggle to has last breath. If we do not find prayer difficult, perhaps it is because we have not really started to pray.” Abba Agathon

“Whoever is a hearer and lover of the Word made flesh “takes the kingdom by force” exerting, as the fathers teach us, all their reserves of energy in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

The Savior said: “Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in therein…” [Matt. 7:13]. And He further taught: “If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.” [Matt. 16:24]. “The kingdom of heaven is taken by force (i.e., by forcing oneself and by the earnest labor in searching), and the forceful (i.e., those who force themselves to labor without feeling sorry for themselves), take it by force.” [Matt 11:12]

“To those who are just beginning to long for holiness, the path of virtue seems very rough and forbidding. It appears like this, not because it really is difficult, but because our human nature from the womb is accustomed to the wide roads of sensual pleasure. But those who have travelled more than half its length find the path of virtue smooth and easy. For when a bad habit has been subjected to a good one through the energy of grace it is destroyed along with the remembrance of mindless pleasures; and thereafter the soul gladly journeys on all the ways of virtue. At the beginning of the struggle, therefore, the holy commandments of God must be fulfilled with a certain forcefulness of will (cf. Matt. 11:12); then the Lord, seeing our intention and labour, will grant us readiness of will and gladness in obeying His purpose. For ‘it is the Lord who makes ready the will’ (Prov. 8:35, LXX), so that we always do what is right joyfully. Then shall we truly feel that ‘it is God who energizes in you both the willing and the doing of His purpose’ (Phil. 2:13).” St. Diadochos of Photiki

 

[Chris_Jacobsen]

According to the Bible, it was the Romans who put Jesus to death. The Jewish leaders had no authority to crucify Him.

The high priest had a role to play. If the high priest had been a good man instead of a bad man, the way in which he played his role would have been different. However, the result would have been the same. Jesus would still have died for our sins. Jesus came into the world to be the sacrifice for our sins.

Jesus said that He freely laid down His life so that He might take it up, again. He told Pilate that Pilate would have no authority if it wasn’t given to him by God. In other words, Pilate had power over Jesus because Jesus, being God, allowed Pilate to have power over Him.

 

[Brendan]

Last Lent, when we were discussing the Crucifixion, my then 5 year old son made the comment " If I was there, I would have rescued Jesus".

I started to cry, because how could I tell this small child that his daddy would have pounded in the nails himself.

 

[Steven_Merten]

prodromos:

How do you hope to prove this statement?

Originally Posted by Steven Merten
Tens of thousands had been baptized by John and accepted Jesus as their Saviour by Palm Sunday. By Holy Thursday, many of those same people now chanted, “Crucify him!”

John.

Hello John,

The posters before you stated that we all crucified Jesus. If I get your inferance right, you do not believe that any people, who were followers of Jesus on Palm Sunday, would have chanted “Crucify him!” on Holy Thursday.

In most of the Holy Thursday Vigils that I have been to, the parishioners recite the words, “Crucify him!”. Should we maybe invite some Jews in to recite these words at the next Holy Thursday vigil? Possibly early followers of Jesus would never have done such a thing. Can you give us Church writings which state this assessment?

It seems to me that, of the many people who came out to greet Jesus on Palm Sunday, many would have also been there when Jesus stood before Pilate. If the people gathered before Pilot and Jesus were not the same people who gathered to see Jesus on Palm Sunday, then why were they there? Did all Roman criminal defendants attract crowds similiar to the one at Christ’s condemnation? It seems to me that many of the crowd were Jesus’ Palm Sunday followers and many were tempted and failed in the same way Judas did. Even the other eleven Apostles did not fare well at Christ’s crucifixion.

No, I cannot prove my statment with hard evidence. I would appreciate any hard evidence from you that the Church teaches that the case I describe is not the case.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Steven_Merten]

Chris Jacobsen:

According to the Bible, it was the Romans who put Jesus to death. The Jewish leaders had no authority to crucify Him.

Hello Chris,

Have you ever read To Kill an Elephant? You should. It is how a person in authority (an English policeman in colonial India) is faced with a crowd that expects a specific pronoucment from his position of authority. Even in our modern American culture, we seek to find all conspiritors to a murder and clasify and convict them all as murderers. I find it amusing that you believe that a, lone gun, Pilot, off the cuff, decided to go out and kill Jesus all on his own (through his position of authority). Pilot did not even want to kill Jesus. On his own, Pilot (the Romans) would have released Jesus.

NAB MAT 12:14
When the Pharisees were outside they began to plot against him to find a way to destroy him.

---

NAB MAT 27:30

---

Meanwhile, the chief priests and elders convinced the crowds that they should ask for Barabbas and have Jesus put to death. So when the procurator asked them, “Which one do you wish me to release for you?” they said, “Barabbas.” Pilate said to them, “Then what am I to do with Jesus, the so-called Messiah?” “Crucify him!” they all cried. Pilot finally realized that he was making no impression and that a riot was breaking out instead. He called for water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, declaring as he did so, “I am innocent of the blood of this just man. The responsifility is yours.” The whole people said in reply, “Let his blood be on us and on our children.” At that, he released Barabbas to them. Jesus, however, he first had scourged; then he handed him over to be crucified.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Steven_Merten]

prodromos:

I’m afraid you greatly misunderstand what Jesus is saying in Matthew 11:12.
To enter the Kingdom of God requires struggle and discipline. It requires overcoming our passions of lust, anger, pride etc. which is not something that can be done easily but requires violence.

“If you do not feel like praying, you have to force yourself! The Holy Fathers say that prayer with force is higher than prayer unforced. You do not want to, but force yourself. The Kingdom of Heaven is taken by force.”

Hello John,

I am unfamiliar with “violence” that holy Fathers are telling us to commit to get to heaven. Please give me a link so I can read about it.

I am sure you have heard what the “born again” Christians say to verbally force their way into the Kingdom of God without the need of “righteous deeds” and Christ’s judgement day judgement. They say scriptures back up their statments of being the glorious ones already in possession of heaven. So did the Pharisees desire such worldly glorification as those in possession of eternal life. The Pharisees, like our modern day “born agains”, also abused scriptures to verbally force their way into the Kingdom of God. According to Jesus (Luke 16:16), it seems the Pharisees also abused John’s baptism to do so. What a coincidence!

NAB JOH 5:39

**“Search the Scriptures in which you think you have eternal life–**they also testify on my behalf. Yet you are unwilling to come to me to possess that life. It is not that I accept human praise-- it is simply that I know you, and you do not have the love of God in your hearts.”

NAB ACT 23:8

(The Sadducees, of course, maintain that there is no resurrection and that there are neither angles nor spirits, while the Pharisees believe in all these things.)

​

NAB MAT 22 The Wedding Banquet

"The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. He dispatched his servants to summon the invited guests to the feast, but they refused to come. A second time he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those invited: “Behold, I have prepared my banquet, my calves and fattened cattle are killed, and everything is ready; come to the feast.”’ Some ignored the invitation and went away, one to his farm, another to his business. The rest laid hold of his servants, mistreated them, and killed them. The king was enraged and sent his troops, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The feast is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy to come. Go out, therefore, into the main roads and invite to the feast whomever you find.’ The servants went out into the streets and gathered all they found, bad and good alike, and the hall was filled with guests. But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence. Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ Many are invited, but few are chosen." Then the Pharisees went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech.

NAB REV 19:7
For the wedding day of the Lamb has come, his bride has made herself ready. She was allowed to wear a bright, clean linen garment." (The linen represents the righteous deeds of the holy ones.) Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[brockmac]

We ALL killed Him with our sins

Amen, so yes Christians, including you and I killed him.

 

[Steven_Merten]

I’m afraid you greatly misunderstand what Jesus is saying in Matthew 11:12.
To enter the Kingdom of God requires struggle and discipline. It requires overcoming our passions of lust, anger, pride etc. which is not something that can be done easily but requires violence.

“If you do not feel like praying, you have to force yourself! The Holy Fathers say that prayer with force is higher than prayer unforced. You do not want to, but force yourself. The Kingdom of Heaven is taken by force.”

Hello all,

Can anyone give me a Church link to where “Holy Fathers” tell us that John’s baptism is not valid and those entering the Kingdom of God from John’s time had to force their way in through prayer and “violently” overcoming sin. Whooh! I would think that the Protestants would have a hayday with such information.

NAB MAT 11:11

"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least **born into the Kingdom of **God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer’s time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force."

In Jesus parables and stories he uses analogies. The Prodigal Son story is an analogy which Jesus gives to describe God’s sons of Israel who fall away and then return to Him. Repentance To Service

In the same way Jesus uses His “Wedding Banquet” story to teach of those who think they possess eternal life. When God binds the man’s hands and feet and has him thrown into hell, this is not a real story where someone who is in eternal life is now thrown into eternal damnation by God. It is an analogy against those who verbally force their way into heaven through their abuse of scriptures. After Jesus gives his “Wedding Banquet” sermon, the Pharisees immediately ran out and to try to find a way to kill Jesus. The Pharisees knew who Jesus was talking about.

I cannot believe that “Holy Fathers” would teach that these men in Mathew 11:12 and in Jesus Wedding Banquet analogy have actually, literally forced their way into the Kingdom of God. Jesus clarifies that He is giving an anology in 11:12 by saying that even John does not possess eternal life. At his death, no doubt, John will be judged by Jesus and enter into the Kingdom of God at that time. Are we to believe these men who take the Kingdom of God by force are literally in the Kingdom but John was not “violent” enough? Jesus says of John, "Yet the least born into the Kingdom** of **God is greater than he (John)"

Anyone have a link to what prodromos is talking about?

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[prodromos]

Steve, it seems that you have misunderstood. Baptism in the church is the means of entry into the body of Christ, the church, but if we leave it at that we are by no means guaranteed of salvation. It requires struggle to overcome our passions, to pray regularly, to increase in virtues. None of these things come to us by simply sitting and waiting but require effort on our part in addition to God’s grace. This is what is meant by “The kingdom of heaven is taken by force” (I believe “force” is a better translation than “violence”, because we now attach a lot of negative connotations to “violence” which did not exist before).
You said that the Pharisees abused scriptures to verbally force their way into the Kingdom of God, but you neglect the fact that they did not in fact enter God’s kingdom ( unless of course they repented later on )

 

[Steven_Merten]

prodromos:

Steve, it seems that you have misunderstood. Baptism in the church is the means of entry into the body of Christ, the church, but if we leave it at that we are by no means guaranteed of salvation. It requires struggle to overcome our passions, to pray regularly, to increase in virtues. None of these things come to us by simply sitting and waiting but require effort on our part in addition to God’s grace. This is what is meant by “The kingdom of heaven is taken by force” (I believe “force” is a better translation than “violence”, because we now attach a lot of negative connotations to “violence” which did not exist before).
You said that the Pharisees abused scriptures to verbally force their way into the Kingdom of God, but you neglect the fact that they did not in fact enter God’s kingdom ( unless of course they repented later on )

Hello Prodromos,

When a “born again” Christian tells you that he posesses eternal life, and you Catholics don’t, do you believe him? These people verbally force their way into the Kingdom of God. The “born agains” want to glorify themselves over others in the world as God’s chosen few. “Born agains” are not really in possession of the Kingdom anymore than the baptized Pharisees were. They just want the worldly glorification as being separated out as God’s chosen few in possession of the Kingdom of God.

People cannot literally take the Kingdom of God by force. Mat 11:11 is an analogy like The Wedding Banquet to descibe people who claim that they possess eternal life to attain worldly glorification for themselves as God’s chosen few. It appears that it is this lust to abuse baptism for worldly glorification as those in possession of eternal life that the baptized Pharisees killed Jesus to protect.

**NAB MAT 11:11
**
"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least **born into the Kingdom of **God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer’s time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force."

---

**NAB MAT 22 The Wedding Banquet

** But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence. Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ Many are invited, but few are chosen." Then the Pharisees went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech.

Whether it was Jews or Christians who instigated Jesus death seems to depend on whether you define those baptized by John as Jews or Christians.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[Steven_Merten]

prodromos:

Steve, it seems that you have misunderstood. Baptism in the church is the means of entry into the body of Christ, the church, but if we leave it at that we are by no means guaranteed of salvation. It requires struggle to overcome our passions, to pray regularly, to increase in virtues.

Hello prodromos,

A majority of those polled on this thread believe that the Church teaches that John’s Baptism is invalid to get a person into heaven. Jesus implies in Mat 11:11 that ever since John started baptizing, people are forcing their way in. You say that the Church teaches that in Mathew 11:11 people are forcing their way into heaven with prayer and restrain from sin. Can you give me a quote or link to where the Church is teaching that John’s baptism is invalid and people are forcing their way in through prayer and refrain from sin?

**NAB MAT 11:11
**
"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least **born into the Kingdom of **God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer’s time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force."

---

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

 

[prodromos]

Steven Merten:

You say that the Church teaches that in Mathew 11:11 people are forcing their way into heaven with prayer and restrain from sin.

No, I am saying that salvation requires struggle and effort. No one can force their way into the Kingdom of Heaven

Can you give me a quote or link to where the Church is teaching that John’s baptism is invalid and people are forcing their way in through prayer and refrain from sin?

I have never stated that John’s baptism is invalid, however I cannot understand why you believe John’s baptism enabled people to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, if that is indeed what you mean. John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, nothing more.

John.