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Shoshana
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Salvo The Pope and the church will simply never be able to do enough to appease some of the more radical elements in Judaism. QUOTE said:
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Salvo
Guest
Well, I guess that was my point. To some Jews, you just cannot make up for 2000 years of pesecution. But what they fail to realise is that some of the persecution came FROM the Jews, directed TOWARDS the Christians.
Has anyone considered why the Ukranians and Russians hate the Jews so much? A lot of it has to do with the fact that the Jews were once agressors in the region. Yep, that’s right. The Jewish Khazar kingdom was constantly at odds with the Christians of Kiev-Rus. The Khazars were eventually defeated and their descendents became the Hassidic Jews of Eastern Europe which is why there was so much animosity towards them traditionally.
Another example is Ethiopia. The Jewish tribe of Ethiopia, the Beta Israel or Felasha, was also once a very strong kingdom. In the 14th century, the Ethiopian Jews under King Yusuf nearly destroyed the Christian kingdom (it only survived as an ironic twist of fate when the Muslim Oromo tribe came sweeping through from the East and saw the Jews as the formidable people to conquer rather than the decimated Christian highland kingdom).
And as I have already stated, from the first to fouth century, it was for the most part Christians who were on the receiving end of persecution. The vast majority came of course from the Romans. But the Jews were all too eager to finish where the Romans left off.
So, just how far back do we all get to bring up historical events and claim “persecution”?
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DominvsVobiscvm
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Gottle:
Can it, alright? No one can be responsible when their quotes, perfectly alright in themselves, are taken out of context to serve other end?
And what the heck makes you think that the Nazis were so devoutly Patristic that it was these very quotes that inspired their hatred of the Jews? They were inspired by false racial ideologies, compltely antithetical to the Catholic tradition.
Anyone with a fundamental understanding of Church history knows that the Catholic Churh was the historical protector of Jidaism, even if several Catholics acted contrary to this. There’s a reason why the cults of Mithras, Diana, Isis, Sol Invictus, etc. are all dead but Judaism isn’t. Think about it. See Thomas F. Madden’s “The Church and the Jews in the Middle Ages.”
I’ve already shown that the quote from Saint Gregory of Nyssa has no basis in fact. The ones from Saint John Chrysostom are also being taken out of context.
There is an increasing number os scholars who beleive that Saint John’s quotes were not directed towards Jews, but Judaizers, heretical Christians who taught that adherence to the Torah was necessary to salvation. For more information and documentation, go here.
Saint Gregory of Nyssa, pray for us! Saint John Chrysostom, pray for us! All holy Fathers and Doctors of the Church, protect us against the attacks on our holy Faith by the errors of heretics, and the errors of Judaism!
Can it, alright? No one can be responsible when their quotes, perfectly alright in themselves, are taken out of context to serve other end?
And what the heck makes you think that the Nazis were so devoutly Patristic that it was these very quotes that inspired their hatred of the Jews? They were inspired by false racial ideologies, compltely antithetical to the Catholic tradition.
Anyone with a fundamental understanding of Church history knows that the Catholic Churh was the historical protector of Jidaism, even if several Catholics acted contrary to this. There’s a reason why the cults of Mithras, Diana, Isis, Sol Invictus, etc. are all dead but Judaism isn’t. Think about it. See Thomas F. Madden’s “The Church and the Jews in the Middle Ages.”
I’ve already shown that the quote from Saint Gregory of Nyssa has no basis in fact. The ones from Saint John Chrysostom are also being taken out of context.
There is an increasing number os scholars who beleive that Saint John’s quotes were not directed towards Jews, but Judaizers, heretical Christians who taught that adherence to the Torah was necessary to salvation. For more information and documentation, go here.
Saint Gregory of Nyssa, pray for us! Saint John Chrysostom, pray for us! All holy Fathers and Doctors of the Church, protect us against the attacks on our holy Faith by the errors of heretics, and the errors of Judaism!
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HagiaSophia
Guest
To such a point that when Pacelli is nuncio there, he calls it “satanically inspired”.
Exactly right - that has always been what I was taught and many moons ago. One of the reasons I have not joined this thread was in looking through it there seemed to be no historical context to it - anti semitism, today and during WWII is vastly different from what was going on in the late 4th century, there were more Jews in the Roman Empire than there were Christians. The Judiasim of that day was an aggressively proselytizing faith, competing with Christianity for new converts. Most of Chrysostom’s flock were recent, very simply catechized former pagans, bombarded with apologetics from Jews and Judaizing sects, and in light of
the living memory of many at that time, the Jews had sided with Julian the Apostate (who promised to evict the Christians from Jerusalem and rebuild the Temple), and you have the situation for “anti-Judaizing”, not anti-Semitic polemics.
You also have to know that the preaching style of the times, in which Chrysostom, Jerome, Augustine, Basil the Great and Gregory were trained, required a certain amount of negativity to be heaped upon the “other side”. It is still a cause for applause in the marketplaces of some places in the world to be able to curse out, tell off, and vent with prose which covers your oppositon’s anatomy, geneaology, apearance, and familial antecedents without repeating yourself. This will get you a round of applause from those in the street who happen to hear it.
It would be the same as taking the polemics of Luther’s time as the Reformation is being countered and Catholics and Protestants are dying for their beliefs and comparing it with how Lutherans and Catholics speak to one another today. You cannot have a civil discussion with much factual information in it, unless you have a “context”.
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Shoshana
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I would really like to know exactly what you mean by the errors of Judaism. Please clarify.
Blessings,
Shoshana
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Salvo
Guest
Very true. Like I said, the Jewish population of the time was much different than now. Outside of Israel, they were very well organised and powerful in some communities, much more so than Christians. And to support your point, as I mentioned previously the Talmud is full of the same types of disparaging remarks (if not much worse).
There have been various times in history where Jewish communities have sided with regimes and tyrants who persecuted Christianity. And who can blame them? They were only looking out for their own preservation. I often wonder if any Jews sheltered Christians during the Roman persecutions.
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Documentation, please? Really, do show me one Magisterial document, even a non-infallible one, that even remotely suggests that Jews are the “sum of the earth.” I’ll give you an ycentury to pick it from. Any. C’mon, put your money where your mouth is.
Did you read Thomas F. Madden’s article on the subject? Do you disagree with anything said in it?
The point is, Judaism survived the past 2000 years, in Catholic countries, while these pagan cults did not. There’s a reason for this; the Catholic Church was its historic protector. Read the article I posted.
I can’t believe you seriously asked this question. You’re obviously just arguing for the sake of arguing. Think real hard, and I’m sure you can come up with a teaching or two of Judaism that contradicts Catholic Christianity. There are errors.
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Shoshana
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Dominus obiscum, Salvo, and HagiaSophia,
Thank you for sharing your information. After rereading all the posts, I must admit that I have never heard this side of history. I was aware that St Stephen was put to death and that St Paul was active in searching apostate Jews to kill them, but I thought that was for a very short time. Certainly not the centuries you are talking about. I admit to my mistake, forgive me.
So, as someone said on this thread, forgiveness has not been had by either Christians nor Jews. I did not understand it at that time (other than the crucifiction of Jesus). Now I do. This would be a continuing cycle. I also realize that the Jews were persecuted but they are now the persecutors. I guess the Palestinian story of today is not new to their behavior. I also realize that most cultures are guilty of bloody murder, but I would’ve never guessed that the Jews were so guilty themselves. I guess I am naive to say the least.
Dominus, I did not know what light you were talking about when you said the errors of Judaism. You could say that all religions are in error if you look at it that way. Sorry.
I will not repeat this error about the history of anti-Semitism again. I must try to read up on it. I would love to get hold of Pinchas Lapede’s book. My library does not own one.
Have a great Sunday. And now my conscience is free…
Dominus Vobiscum et al, Et cum Spiritutuo…
Blessings,
Shoshana
Thank you for sharing your information. After rereading all the posts, I must admit that I have never heard this side of history. I was aware that St Stephen was put to death and that St Paul was active in searching apostate Jews to kill them, but I thought that was for a very short time. Certainly not the centuries you are talking about. I admit to my mistake, forgive me.
So, as someone said on this thread, forgiveness has not been had by either Christians nor Jews. I did not understand it at that time (other than the crucifiction of Jesus). Now I do. This would be a continuing cycle. I also realize that the Jews were persecuted but they are now the persecutors. I guess the Palestinian story of today is not new to their behavior. I also realize that most cultures are guilty of bloody murder, but I would’ve never guessed that the Jews were so guilty themselves. I guess I am naive to say the least.
Dominus, I did not know what light you were talking about when you said the errors of Judaism. You could say that all religions are in error if you look at it that way. Sorry.
I will not repeat this error about the history of anti-Semitism again. I must try to read up on it. I would love to get hold of Pinchas Lapede’s book. My library does not own one.
Have a great Sunday. And now my conscience is free…
Dominus Vobiscum et al, Et cum Spiritutuo…
Blessings,
Shoshana
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
I hope n one comes way from this disucssion thinking that that Jews had their hardships “coming to them.” While different goupds of Jews were on the giving end of perseuctions at various historical junctions, the vast majority of the time they, as a people, were on the receiving end of it; I’m talking about since they were conquered by the Romans.
Jews have never persecuted Christians on the scale that we have recipricated. I know of no historical parallel to the Holocaust, for example, pr the expulsion of Jews fom Spain, or the massacres during the Crusades, which were perpetuated on Christians by Jews.
Yeah, there were violent tribes of Jews in Arabia, Ethiopia, and even the Slavic lands, but these were b yfar always outside the Jewish mainstream, culturally and theologically.
My only point was that these massaces were not in any way originated from or inculcated in the orthodox, *the official * Catholic tradition. The popes, and the vast majority of bishops, always protested persecutions of Jews, insisting that, while their role in, say, the political life of a Catholic state could be limited, or their public religious practices limited, they must always be guaranteed their natural rights as human beings. They were not to be compelled to accept baptism (although special preachers were commisioned to convert them willfully), they were not to have their property taken away, and they were not to be charged with crimes like the infamous “blood libel,” or the accusation of causing the Black Plague.
Sadly, many Catholics (especially monarchs) thought they knew better than their Church, and they ignored the Church’s rulings in these regards. Could the Church have done more? I think so. I think she could have, indeed should have, enforced these teachings with severe penalties like excommunications. But perhaps she felt that, if she did, greater evil would be perpetuated, like the existence of centuries-long schisms. And so she confined herself to preaching her teachings, and doing what she could otherwise do to mitigate the sufferings of Jews.
Some may seem paralles to the ways she is dealing with Modernism in the Church today.
Most importantly, with regards to this thread, I do not think it can be said that the Fathers were anti-Semitic. There was no hatred, racial or other, on their part of the Jewish people, whatever might be said about the inflamatory rhetoric against the Jewish religion.
Jews have never persecuted Christians on the scale that we have recipricated. I know of no historical parallel to the Holocaust, for example, pr the expulsion of Jews fom Spain, or the massacres during the Crusades, which were perpetuated on Christians by Jews.
Yeah, there were violent tribes of Jews in Arabia, Ethiopia, and even the Slavic lands, but these were b yfar always outside the Jewish mainstream, culturally and theologically.
My only point was that these massaces were not in any way originated from or inculcated in the orthodox, *the official * Catholic tradition. The popes, and the vast majority of bishops, always protested persecutions of Jews, insisting that, while their role in, say, the political life of a Catholic state could be limited, or their public religious practices limited, they must always be guaranteed their natural rights as human beings. They were not to be compelled to accept baptism (although special preachers were commisioned to convert them willfully), they were not to have their property taken away, and they were not to be charged with crimes like the infamous “blood libel,” or the accusation of causing the Black Plague.
Sadly, many Catholics (especially monarchs) thought they knew better than their Church, and they ignored the Church’s rulings in these regards. Could the Church have done more? I think so. I think she could have, indeed should have, enforced these teachings with severe penalties like excommunications. But perhaps she felt that, if she did, greater evil would be perpetuated, like the existence of centuries-long schisms. And so she confined herself to preaching her teachings, and doing what she could otherwise do to mitigate the sufferings of Jews.
Some may seem paralles to the ways she is dealing with Modernism in the Church today.
Most importantly, with regards to this thread, I do not think it can be said that the Fathers were anti-Semitic. There was no hatred, racial or other, on their part of the Jewish people, whatever might be said about the inflamatory rhetoric against the Jewish religion.
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Salvo
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Shoshana, DV,
I really appreciate both of your sentiments. And DV, I too am hoping no one is saying “the Jews got what they had coming to them” because as you said, that is definitely not the teaching of the church. I am merely showing a cause and effect here. As far as the genocide of the holocaust, no, you are right, there has never been anything on such a massive scale using modern techniques before or after WW II (although the rate of killing in Rwanda DID surpass that of the Jews on a per day basis). Having said that, life is not a numbers game. If the Jews of Ethioipia or the Khazar Jews of Eastern Europe massacred your family or village, are you going to care what the final figures of that particular genocide are? 500 or 501?
My point is traditionally history is written by the victors. And the Jews have for the past 1000 years been historically on the losing end of history, with the sole exception being the modern creation of the state of Israel. But because the Jewish psyche is so ingrained with the concept of being the victim, through the countless justifiable substantiated facts and circumstances which support this mentality, we seem to have become clouded in a kind of historical memory loss due to a collective sense of guilt. But just for a minute imagine the Jews had been victorious in Europe, Ethiopia, Arabia etc. Imagine the Talmud was the only thing that survived, where it calls gentiles animals unworthy of being anything but servants and slaves to Jews. How would we view the Jews in power, and what would we feel towards the Christians (gentiles) they were writing about 1800 years ago…?
I really appreciate both of your sentiments. And DV, I too am hoping no one is saying “the Jews got what they had coming to them” because as you said, that is definitely not the teaching of the church. I am merely showing a cause and effect here. As far as the genocide of the holocaust, no, you are right, there has never been anything on such a massive scale using modern techniques before or after WW II (although the rate of killing in Rwanda DID surpass that of the Jews on a per day basis). Having said that, life is not a numbers game. If the Jews of Ethioipia or the Khazar Jews of Eastern Europe massacred your family or village, are you going to care what the final figures of that particular genocide are? 500 or 501?
My point is traditionally history is written by the victors. And the Jews have for the past 1000 years been historically on the losing end of history, with the sole exception being the modern creation of the state of Israel. But because the Jewish psyche is so ingrained with the concept of being the victim, through the countless justifiable substantiated facts and circumstances which support this mentality, we seem to have become clouded in a kind of historical memory loss due to a collective sense of guilt. But just for a minute imagine the Jews had been victorious in Europe, Ethiopia, Arabia etc. Imagine the Talmud was the only thing that survived, where it calls gentiles animals unworthy of being anything but servants and slaves to Jews. How would we view the Jews in power, and what would we feel towards the Christians (gentiles) they were writing about 1800 years ago…?
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DominvsVobiscvm
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Does the Talmud really say stuff with this? Anti-Semities usually claim so, and even give citations, but I’ve never sen these substantiated by Jewish sourced, or unbiased secular sources.
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Salvo
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Unfortunately, it says a lot worse. If you want, you can explore it yourself. But I don’t see a need to go into it all here on this thread. Suffice it to say, I’m not a fan. Incidentally, that famous quote from the Talmud that we have all heard from Schindler’s list really goes like this:
“whosoever destroys a single soul of Israel [Jew], Scripture imputes [guilt] to him as though he had destroyed a complete world; and whosoever preserves a single soul of Israel [Jew], Scripture ascribes [merit] to him as though he had preserved a complete world.”
Babylonian Talmud, tractate Sanhedrin 37/1
Saddly, a phrase I hear uttered far too often from Orthodox Jews is “what’s good for the Jews is good for the world.” I have to bite my tonuge and say, “yeah, unless you’re a Palestinian Christian.”
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Shoshana
Guest
Hi,
My computer was on the blink again…but I am back!
I have heard this statement ‘if you save one Jew…etc’. I do not own a Talmud but only a Tanach (which was enough money as it is!)
I do have a question here (and I know it is off topic, but I do not want to start a thread on this because I know nothing about it). I have read in so many different books about the fact that it was Jews who started Freemasonry. What is your take on this?
As I have mentioned before I belonged to a couple of Jewish sites and even one that was Messianic Jewish (whatever that means), and it was IMPOSSIBLE to protect my Catholicity there. I realize that they are myopic in their perceptions of things (victim complex et al) but on this thread I thought we were a bit myopic also. I guess that wasn’t the case. This was a hoot!
Thank you for your patience…
Blessings,
Shoshana
My computer was on the blink again…but I am back!
I have heard this statement ‘if you save one Jew…etc’. I do not own a Talmud but only a Tanach (which was enough money as it is!)
I do have a question here (and I know it is off topic, but I do not want to start a thread on this because I know nothing about it). I have read in so many different books about the fact that it was Jews who started Freemasonry. What is your take on this?
As I have mentioned before I belonged to a couple of Jewish sites and even one that was Messianic Jewish (whatever that means), and it was IMPOSSIBLE to protect my Catholicity there. I realize that they are myopic in their perceptions of things (victim complex et al) but on this thread I thought we were a bit myopic also. I guess that wasn’t the case. This was a hoot!
Thank you for your patience…
Blessings,
Shoshana
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
There was an Irish Catholic priest, who saved 3,000+ Jews and allied soldiers in the Vatican (originally there were 4,000+ at the Vatican) and across Italy in convents and in churches during WWII.The claim that the Church was antisemetic as an institution during WWII is laughable.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O’Flaherty
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Gottle_of_Geer
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How idiotic of Jesus to burble about love of enemies - it’s a very good thing his sentimental drivel has been corrected; even if it took 370 years to do so.
If Luther had said that in “On the Lies of the Jews”, it would have been quoted as proof of what a sicko he was - if it comes from the mouth of a sainted Doctor & Father, it suddenly becomes either tolerable (if not true doctrine) or at least excusable.
The sooner such ravings are destroyed, the better for us all. It’s obvious where the spirit that possessed him came from. (Hint: from God, is not the answer.) That kind of hate dressed up as Christian preaching has brought us nothing but Belsen, Auschwitz and the rest of those horrors. It’s very naive to preach hatred of others, and to be surprised when such preaching bears its fruit. ##What a pity it didn’t occur to hiom that what Catholics did to others, others might do to Catholics. 
This quotation has a suspect feel about it - the sort of feel that many quotations of Catholic authors on Protestant websites have. So I for one would like more evidence that it is genuine
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Gottle_of_Geer
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[continued and ended]
And how can we today have the trillionth of an atom of credibility when we preach a “God of Love” ? Why should Jews not find this message at once hilarious, ridiculous, and in complete contradiction to the rantings of John Coprostom (as he ought treally to be called) and Paul IV ? If I were a Jew, I wouldn’t know whether to laugh or cry at such shameless behaviour by the spiritual descendants of those preachers of hate. Christianity is the pre-eminent religion of hatred, and nowhere is this clearer than in the centuries-long martyrdom of the Jews. John XXIII was absolutely spot-on: “The Jews are the true Body of Christ”. (See: Pinchas Lapide, The Last Three Popes and the Jews: 1964) ##
In fairness to Jerome; although he was a pretty unpleasant man, he shouldn’t be condemned on the strength of an incomplete quotation. Not even a Jew-baiting Father deserves to be treated like that; some of us hope that we can avoid sinking to such depths as they, on occasion, did. That they had, & taught, repulsive attitudes, is no reason for us to copy them.
Hitler too thought that they were untermenschen - sub-humans. The rest is history.
“Yeshua” ? Why not give His Name in its conventional form ?
That last section is a terrible instance of a Pope correcting what that silly man Jesus (Who obviously had no idea of what He meant or of what was practical) actually said. Jesus says, “Love your enemies”, and “Father, forgive them for they know know not what they do”; Fathers and Popes revise what He said, and preach hatred, slander, and contempt. He says love, they say hate. He commands - they rebel against that command; and teach others to do so.
If these people are so full of hatred & violence, what does that say about a religion which either tolerates or, far worse, blesses such hatred and violence ? They make what Hitler says about how he was only continuing what they began, all too plausible.And how can we today have the trillionth of an atom of credibility when we preach a “God of Love” ? Why should Jews not find this message at once hilarious, ridiculous, and in complete contradiction to the rantings of John Coprostom (as he ought treally to be called) and Paul IV ? If I were a Jew, I wouldn’t know whether to laugh or cry at such shameless behaviour by the spiritual descendants of those preachers of hate. Christianity is the pre-eminent religion of hatred, and nowhere is this clearer than in the centuries-long martyrdom of the Jews. John XXIII was absolutely spot-on: “The Jews are the true Body of Christ”. (See: Pinchas Lapide, The Last Three Popes and the Jews: 1964) ##
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