Were the Jewish people mad at the Good Friday liturgy? (EF)

[EasterJoy]

I’ve always felt the way we do it is proper. And in so saying I accept fully that I am responsible for His death and suffering. I always have.

But apparently some here, maybe not you, feel that the Jews should get a pass on it. I don’t. They also need to accept responsibility and accept who Christ is… Then and only then can the re-conciliation of the Jewish faith and Christianity really start to take place in any meaningful fashion

There is no “they”. There is only “us.” Responsibility for the death of Jesus is *our * spiritual heritage. Can we accept the responsibility that is ours, but then turn and be in a hurry to put blame onto someone else? We are the servant whose great debt was forgiven. It is not advisable for us to go out and throttle another servant who owes a fraction of what we did.

Jesus Himself pleaded from the Cross that, as you put it, “the Jews should get a pass on it.” Why won’t you oblige Him?

 

[CatholicCajun]

Wait, so Jews have been going to Good Friday services and whining when it doesn’t suit them? Um, correct me if I’m wrong but we don’t force them to go, if they don’t like it, they can leave. I suppose we should do the same and go to Temple and complain when they call us godless gentiles…

I have to agree with you. I choose not to go to Jewish or Protestand services, I would not be happy at either, makes you wonder if they go to make a fuss and a scene?

 

[Refugium]

I am asking this question, because I was wondering (with all the controversy surrounding the prayer) if the thousands of Jewish Brothers/Sisters who attend the good friday liturgy in the extaordinary form, if anyone noticed if they (the Jewish people) seemed mad?

At my Parish, when the prayer for their conversion was read, (in latin) they all seemed very angry! Some even left. (and there was A lot of them there, wearing yarmulkes)

what was the reaction at your Parish?

What on earth were Jewish people doing there anyway? I’ve never heard of Jews with yarmulkes attending a Catholic Mass, much less a Good Friday liturgy in the traditional rite! I think they just went there to make a scene…some Jews love being offended. It’s a victim-complex mentality. Anyhow, I wonder if they would have been less offended if the Christians attending that liturgy had run them out of the Church when the Gospel about their people murdering Jesus was read, especially where they say, “His blood be on us and on our children!” Better yet, I wonder if Christians ever visit synagogues just to walk out when they read that passage from the Talmud that says that Jesus and Mary are in hell in boiling excrement?

 

[Refugium]

We had a number of orthodox Jews attend our Good Friday liturgy. When a prayer for their conversion was read, a riot broke out in the pews. Ever since Jews have been attending Good Friday services, we’ve had complaints that the liturgy doesn’t suit them.

It’s a good that the Vatican is moving to enforce the rights of Jews to not be offended during our liturgies!

Oh, and let me guess…THEY started the riot? I thought they were SO worried that our humble Good Friday prayer would cause waves of pogroms to break out? Sickening!

 

[RC_Matt]

I am asking this question, because I was wondering (with all the controversy surrounding the prayer) if the thousands of Jewish Brothers/Sisters who attend the good friday liturgy in the extaordinary form, if anyone noticed if they (the Jewish people) seemed mad?

At my Parish, when the prayer for their conversion was read, (in latin) they all seemed very angry! Some even left. (and there was A lot of them there, wearing yarmulkes)

what was the reaction at your Parish?

They were angry, very angry. In fact, a few of them even didn’t even take communion!

 

[palmas85]

There is no “they”. There is only “us.” Responsibility for the death of Jesus is *our * spiritual heritage. Can we accept the responsibility that is ours, but then turn and be in a hurry to put blame onto someone else? We are the servant whose great debt was forgiven. It is not advisable for us to go out and throttle another servant who owes a fraction of what we did.

Jesus Himself pleaded from the Cross that, as you put it, “the Jews should get a pass on it.” Why won’t you oblige Him?

Are you sure on that one? He didn’t say the Jews are exempt from believing in him. He didn’t say the Jews or anyone else was responsible or not responsible. He said forgive them for they know not what they do. And since the Romans were the ones who actually nailed Him to the cross and actually condemned Him to death, He could very easily been speaking about them also, don’t you think?

 

[Kaninchen]

Better yet, I wonder if Christians ever visit synagogues just to walk out when they read that passage from the Talmud that says that Jesus and Mary are in hell in boiling excrement?

You have a citation for that?

 

[CarolsDaughter]

We had a number of orthodox Jews attend our Good Friday liturgy. When a prayer for their conversion was read, a riot broke out in the pews. Ever since Jews have been attending Good Friday services, we’ve had complaints that the liturgy doesn’t suit them.

It’s a good that the Vatican is moving to enforce the rights of Jews to not be offended during our liturgies!

I highly doubt they were ORTHODOX Jews. Orthodox (traditional) Jews are forbidden from attending non-Jewish religious worship services, esp. in a church or other non-Jewish house of worship.

Interestingly, I have attended Roman Catholic Masses (but only the Tridentine Latin variety, not the new masses)…I attended them because I am a lover of beauty and aesthetics, Gregorian chant and especially classical music (Beethoven and other classical composers wrote much of their music for the traditional Catholic Mass.)

However, since returning to a more traditional/religious Jewish life, I have not been able to attend any non-Jewish religious services for any reason (for the reason given in my first paragraph.)

Judaism’s rule is akin to the (traditional) RC rule that a Catholic cannot attend non-Catholic religious services under pain of mortal sin.

Let me say in closing that I personally, as a religious Jew, am not offended by the prayers on Good Friday for the conversion of the Jews (in the Tridentine Roman Rite). (I attended once on Good Friday, back in the 1980s.)

Usually the only Jews who are “offended” are the nonreligious or least religious ones, because they are unsteady in their OWN faith. When you are secure in your OWN faith, you don’t really get all nuts over what other faiths do, unless they are somehow affecting you or your own people in a serious way.

I don’t see prayers for Jewish conversion as falling into that category, because for one, I don’t think Jesus ever existed, and two, I know what God expects of Jews and that is for us to be faithful to the Covenant of Sinai (keeping the Torah.). Therefore I know prayers for our conversion to a non-Jewish religion will never be heard.

 

[RC_Matt]

I highly doubt they were ORTHODOX Jews. Orthodox (traditional) Jews are forbidden from attending non-Jewish religious worship services, esp. in a church or other non-Jewish house of worship.

Judaism’s rule is akin to the (traditional) RC rule that a Catholic cannot attend non-Catholic religious services under pain of mortal sin.)

The original post and the one to which you responded are not serious. Orthodox Jews, at least all the ones I know, can’t even attend Catholic weddings, funerals or burials; let alone a Mass or Good Friday Liturgy!

By the way, I’ve never heard of any rule that prevents Catholics from attending services in other traditions; as long as it doesn’t replace attendance at Mass and one doesn’t take communion. I’ve even stood as a Godparent at non-Catholic baptisms and so did my mother in her day (and she’s strict about that kind of stuff too).

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . .

Usually the only Jews who are “offended” are the nonreligious or least religious ones, because they are unsteady in their OWN faith. When you are secure in your OWN faith, you don’t really get all nuts over what other faiths do, unless they are somehow affecting you or your own people in a serious way.
. . . .

Well stated.

 

[EasterJoy]

Are you sure on that one? He didn’t say the Jews are exempt from believing in him. He didn’t say the Jews or anyone else was responsible or not responsible. He said forgive them for they know not what they do. And since the Romans were the ones who actually nailed Him to the cross and actually condemned Him to death, He could very easily been speaking about them also, don’t you think?

My meaning was that He gave everyone a “pass on it”, including the Jews. There is no reason to believe Jesus was differentiating between Jew and Gentile. He was aware he was dying on behalf of all of us. Besides, Peter said, speaking to a Jewish audience: “You put to death the author of life. But God raised him from the dead, and we are his witnesses…Yet I know, my brothers, that you acted out of ignorance, just as your leaders did.” (Acts 3:15,17) Surely Peter spoke the truth.

But that is all being debated on the “must Jews convert” thread. The topic of this one has become whether it is reasonable that the Jews have a concern about the wording we use when observing the Pascal Mysteries. Based on our infidelity to the message of Christ so many times in the past, I do not think their concerns are unjustified. I think they deserve to be taken into consideration. Even if not a single Jew is present to hear the words himself or herself, the Jews have felt the tragic repercussions of the words we have used among ourselves often enough.

 

[Harmony1988]

What are Jewish people doing at a Good Friday service? They don’t believe in Christ as the messiah, so yes, what exactly are they doing there, unless they are married to a Catholic or part of some family, etc.

Then again, what’s to get so angry about? I wouldn’t be mad if Jews or any other religion prayed for my conversion…I mean it is to be expected that one prays for the other to convert if they believe that their faith is the right one.

Duh. It actually shows people care. Only illogical, daft, non-sensical, un-educated people could get mad over something that is logically and obviously correct.

 

[EasterJoy]

I highly doubt they were ORTHODOX Jews…

I think it can be fairly assumed that these were fictitious Jews; that is, the OP was making a point via satirical humor. (Or an attempt at it, depending on your point of view.)

Usually the only Jews who are “offended” are the nonreligious or least religious ones, because they are unsteady in their OWN faith. When you are secure in your OWN faith, you don’t really get all nuts over what other faiths do, unless they are somehow affecting you or your own people in a serious way.

I don’t see prayers for Jewish conversion as falling into that category, because for one, I don’t think Jesus ever existed, and two, I know what God expects of Jews and that is for us to be faithful to the Covenant of Sinai (keeping the Torah.). Therefore I know prayers for our conversion to a non-Jewish religion will never be heard.

There are Jews who are secure in their own faith who are nevertheless concerned at the danger in allowing anti-Semitism or even simple ignorance to fester unexamined. For those who worry, it is not the prospect of what God might do after hearing certain prayers on an emotionally-wrought Good Friday that has them concerned.

 

[Harmony1988]

If they don’t believe in Jesus as the messiah, they have nothing to worry about the prayers, it wouldn’t mean anything.

If they do, then they are guilty of something or their great ego’s affect them or Stephen Hawking’s latest reversal in his theory has left many astounded and hence have hindered their ability to come to grips with post modernism in the church with a hint of neo latin conversion rituals that in turn i-don’t-know-what-i’m-talking-about

 

[EasterJoy]

Duh. It actually shows people care. Only illogical, daft, non-sensical, un-educated people could get mad over something that is logically and obviously correct.

This would be true if people who care always acted in caring ways. Some people–and yes, the variations have usually not been so extreme–have shown their concern for the eternal welfare of Jews by terrorizing them into a confession of faith, then quickly dispatching them before the newly-won souls could be lost.

Keep in mind what happened in Spain under Ferdinand and Isabel, and this after something of a golden age in Christian-Jewish-Muslim relations. History does not advocate in favor of taking these things for granted.

I think, though, that it is very important to educate Christians about the reasons for concessions, when concessions are made. Misunderstandings breed resentments, and such resentments are dangerous for everyone, both eternally and in real time. If we really care about good relations with the Jews, we will take care that the Jews are not the only ones who have their feelings taken into consideration.

 

[Harmony1988]

This would be true if people who care always acted in caring ways. Some people–and yes, the variations have usually not been so extreme–have shown their concern for the eternal welfare of Jews by terrorizing them into a confession of faith, then quickly dispatching them before the newly-won souls could be lost.

Keep in mind what happened in Spain under Ferdinand and Isabel, and this after something of a golden age in Christian-Jewish-Muslim relations. History does not advocate in favor of taking these things for granted.

I think, though, that it is very important to educate Christians about the reasons for concessions, when concessions are made. Misunderstandings breed resentments, and such resentments are dangerous for everyone, both eternally and in real time. If we really care about good relations with the Jews, we will take care that the Jews are not the only ones who have their feelings taken into consideration.

I suppose I can see why some may be a bit queezy…

 

[palmas85]

My meaning was that He gave everyone a “pass on it”, including the Jews. There is no reason to believe Jesus was differentiating between Jew and Gentile. He was aware he was dying on behalf of all of us. Besides, Peter said, speaking to a Jewish audience: “You put to death the author of life. But God raised him from the dead, and we are his witnesses…Yet I know, my brothers, that you acted out of ignorance, just as your leaders did.” (Acts 3:15,17) Surely Peter spoke the truth.

But that is all being debated on the “must Jews convert” thread. The topic of this one has become whether it is reasonable that the Jews have a concern about the wording we use when observing the Pascal Mysteries. Based on our infidelity to the message of Christ so many times in the past, I do not think their concerns are unjustified. I think they deserve to be taken into consideration. Even if not a single Jew is present to hear the words himself or herself, the Jews have felt the tragic repercussions of the words we have used among ourselves often enough.

With all due respect I must disagree. We cannot change the reality of what happened at that time no matter how politically correct it may seem these days to do so. To in any way alter what happened, gloss over what happened or ignore what happened can only lead to serious misinterpretations of the faith.

Sorry but in this instance trying to soothe someones feelings or protect their sensibilities just doesn’t cut it.

The truth is the truth and all of us everyone has to accept it.

 

[EasterJoy]

With all due respect I must disagree. We cannot change the reality of what happened at that time no matter how politically correct it may seem these days to do so. To in any way alter what happened, gloss over what happened or ignore what happened can only lead to serious misinterpretations of the faith.

Sorry but in this instance trying to soothe someones feelings or protect their sensibilities just doesn’t cut it.

The truth is the truth and all of us everyone has to accept it.

If you speak the truth of Jesus Christ in a way that lacks compassion, that is also a lie.

This thread would seem to be about whether it is wrong to take the possible unintended repercussions of prayers written for Good Friday into account, particularly whether or not the wording of the prayers encourages or discourages anti-Semitism (a sin) or whether it tends to teach a correct or incorrect theology concerning God’s irrevocable love for the Jewish people.

Passion plays do not have, as their primary intention, denigration of the Jewish people. Yet that became such a common element of the plays that the Church banned them for a time.

The other question is whether our prayers, if they offend Jews, are likely to have the effect of converting Jews to the Gospel. How are they to be converted based on our love when they are not even convinced by our decency?

I am not suggesting any lies. I am suggesting speaking the truth in a way that does not obscure it, even unintentionally. I see that you also want the truth to be told without being obscured. We only disagree as to how to do that.

 

[CarolsDaughter]

The original post and the one to which you responded are not serious. Orthodox Jews, at least all the ones I know, can’t even attend Catholic weddings, funerals or burials; let alone a Mass or Good Friday Liturgy!

By the way, I’ve never heard of any rule that prevents Catholics from attending services in other traditions; as long as it doesn’t replace attendance at Mass and one doesn’t take communion. I’ve even stood as a Godparent at non-Catholic baptisms and so did my mother in her day (and she’s strict about that kind of stuff too).

I’m going by pre-Vatican 2 regulations, since those are the only ones I’m really familiar with (the half of my family that is Catholic all left the church after the changes of V2, so I only know about the religion from what they remember.)

And I know it was regarded as a mortal sin for Catholics to take part in non-Catholic worship (and use non-Catholic Bibles as well.) I know Catholics from “the old days” who remember being told they would be committing a mortal sin if they sent their children to public schools, too.

 

[Conservative]

I am asking this question, because I was wondering (with all the controversy surrounding the prayer) if the thousands of Jewish Brothers/Sisters who attend the good friday liturgy in the extaordinary form, if anyone noticed if they (the Jewish people) seemed mad?

At my Parish, when the prayer for their conversion was read, (in latin) they all seemed very angry! Some even left. (and there was A lot of them there, wearing yarmulkes)

what was the reaction at your Parish?

Okay - now I’m trying to determine - are you kidding or were there really Jewish people attending your (or other posters’) Good Friday service? If you’re not kidding, then I’m going to say are they there to make sure WE pray the way THEY want?

Please elaborate - were you kidding or serious?