Were there bad popes

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I never know what forum to submit a historical thread, so I choose the one which seems best related to the material. At any rate:

We Catholics are often too willing to admit there have been some really immoral and bad popes. I have made the case before this is way overstated. Indeed, they were few and r between. Here is a good article on the topic:

http://m.ncregister.com/62686/b
 
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This book (which I loved so much) makes the case early on that if you look at the kings if Israel, there were plenty of bad guys in the mix, but they were still God’s chosen people and the Jewish people still carried out their part in salvation history. We don’t have to defend the bad popes to defend the Church.

The Bad Shepherds: The Dark Years in Which the Faithful Thrived While Bishops Did the Devil’s Work https://www.amazon.com/dp/1622827147/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_GbO3DbZFV79DZ
 
They were relatively few, but I’m not sure I’d say “far between”.
I think there were a few time periods, such as the 900s which I posted about before, where you got a bunch of mediocre to bad Popes in a row, mostly because the society from which Popes were getting selected was in chaos and a lot of people aspiring to be Pope weren’t doing it out of the best motives. Back then the Popes weren’t getting selected from a worldwide pool, mostly it was just a handful of nobles in Italy or nearby that were producing all the Popes.

We have also had time periods where most of the Popes were good or even saintly. From Pope Pius IX (possibly before as there’s another Pope from the 1800s with a sainthood cause) till today, we have had an extraordinary run of holy Popes. 53 out of the first 54 Popes are also saints and 31 of those were martyrs.

I do think most of the men who became Pope took it seriously and tried to do a good job, even if in some cases they made decisions that we wouldn’t agree with today.

Also, if somebody needs to go back several centuries to point to a truly bad Pope as an argument against the Church, that’s pretty weak given that we’ve had dozens of Popes since. Warren G . Harding 100 years ago was a corrupt US President, but nobody brings him up to prove the US is bad. In fact everybody who isn’t a history scholar has forgotten about him.
 
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The 10th century popes have long had a bad name due mainly to one contemporary account of events in Italy which was openly hostile to the papacy. Modern historians judge them much more favorable. There were many popes in this period, as many of them had short papacies. There were a couple who were not good, but most were somewhere between mediocre and good.
 
Yes just as there can be and is bad clergy, there were bad popes. Its human nature.
 
I don’t deny that, but we all too often overstate the problem, especially when it come to popes
 
I was watching a youtube from one of the Priests, I liked his words,

Yes we had bad popes, antipopes and bad eras of Catholic History. We had some good ones too.
 
There were certainly bad popes. However, their vices have often been exaggerated throughout the centuries, especially after the Reformation.
 
Makes me wonder why God would appoint a “bad” Pope?
Well, Jesus appointed Peter as first Pope and Peter then proceeded to deny Christ three times.

During a conclave, the cardinals certainly pray for the Holy Spirit’s guidance, but God doesn’t “appoint” the Pope, contrary to popular belief.
 
Makes me wonder how God goes about appointing Popes. After St Peter, I am unaware of that happening.
 
The Cardinals, like all of us, have free will. God respects that.
And the Pope, once elected, also has free will and can make bad choices. The Jewish High Priests also represented God in a special way, but some of them were also corrupt or immoral. The High Priest Caiaphas condemned Christ himself to die, yet the Gospel tells us he spoke “by the Holy Spirit” by virtue of his priestly office.
 
If the selection of a Popoe reflects God’s will then that is the same as appointing, just using a particular means to accomplish it.
You’re leaving out the free will of man here in a big way. God does not will that people, including Popes, commit sins. That’s the person’s own choice. It’s also the person’s own choice whether he wants to immediately repent from his committed sin and try not to sin going forward, or alternatively just persists in some ongoing pattern of bad, unrepented sin.

A Pope, once reigning, has the same free will as you or me - the same free will that all humans have. The Pope can choose to act according to God’s commandments, or he can choose to sin. In some cases, particularly in the distant past, the Pope’s free will also might have been affected by some factor like mental illness, physical illness, coercion from some powerful ruler, etc.

There have been cases of Popes who took office and then likely committed grave sins, but there have also been cases of men who, upon becoming Pope, tried very hard to live good lives and not sin.

Popes are also picked by groups of men, not directly by God, and the choice also reflects the free will of the men doing the selection. They can choose a man they think is holy and will do a good job of leading the Church, or they can choose a man for some other reason like they want to increase their own power so they pick their friend even though they know he’s not holy. Let’s not forget that during a large part of Church history the Pope also had a lot of temporal and economic power, and no doubt this corrrupted the selection process in some cases.

In short: God doesn’t will people to sin. “Bad Popes” are the fruit of man’s sins. Not the will of God.

God has, however, protected his Church so that it survives “bad Popes”, although it might suffer some very bad effects as the consequences of sin.
 
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The Jewish High Priests also represented God in a special way, but some of them were also corrupt or immoral. The High Priest Caiaphas condemned Christ himself to die, yet the Gospel tells us he spoke “by the Holy Spirit” by virtue of his priestly office.
God can also occasionally use an immoral person to accomplish God’s purposes. We see this throughout the Old Testament.
But that doesn’t mean God willed the person to be immoral.
 
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If the selection of a Popoe reflects God’s will then that is the same as appointing, just using a particular means to accomplish it.
Not necessarily. God respects human free will and will work through whoever is chosen, but it’s not like God had one “designated candidate” that he’s going to make sure gets elected.

This article discusses the question in more detail:

 
Not at all. God’s will is established in eternity, never changing, accounting for every decision of free will made by all men.

Certainly the Holy Spirit will be guiding the Cardinals in an election, through the gift of special graces. But the cardinals freely choose who to elect. It is their decision.
 
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The one who dug up a corpse to put on trial comes to mind …
That was Pope Stephen VI (896 - 897) who was strangled to death.

Catholic Encyclopedia
Whether induced by evil passion or perhaps, more probably, compelled by the Emperor Lambert and his mother Ageltruda, he caused the body of Formosus to be exhumed, and in January, 897, to be placed before an unwilling synod of the Roman clergy.
Mann, H. (1912). Pope Stephen (VI) VII. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14289d.htm
 
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Pope Stephen who did that may have been mentally ill rather than “bad”. Given that no one approved of his action, it does not sound like a rational choice to do it.
 
Pope Stephen who did that may have been mentally ill rather than “bad”. Given that no one approved of his action, it does not sound like a rational choice to do it.
Having someone approve of any act does not make it rational. Just look at almost every mass murdering dictator in 20th century. Lots of people approving those acts.
 
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