Were you born without sin?

[Emad]

exoflare:

You mean “…with this argument” right?

I thought all that meant was that Adam was correct. How does his statement negate original sin though? He wasn’t arguing against the concept of original sin, only trying to prove that his sin was not his fault because it was predestined from the beginning. At least that was my impression.

We as Muslims believe that God didn’t inted for Adam to be in heaven forever. Adam was basically telling Moses that humans are on earth because God predestined it for them and not because of his sin. In Islam we believe every child is born innocent and pure. In Islam children aren’t held accountable until they are mature enough to know what they are doing.

 

[Emad]

J2PAdmirer in blue
Emad in black

As for justice, God sent His Son to pay for those sins. In essence, He sent Himself to be punished for OUR misdeeds. He took His wrath out on Himself instead of us. That to me is the ultimate in justice.

That is not justice at all. Lets say you are president of a company and your employees committ crimes they should be punished. For you to put yourself in jail and them go free is not fair at all.

Also, the point of the doctrine of original sin suggests that we are all under the spell of sin. Is it inherited or is it simply something that we all do on the basis of free will mixed with material (animalistic) nature? I would say that is an unanswerable question, but the doctrine merely shows in simple terms that we are all subject to sin, unless God wills otherwise.

What about children which sin are they guilty of? What about a retarded person and people who are mentally sick? Are they also sinners?

Finally, He could allow creation to be corrupted, leave His beings free, and send a Redeemer. Essentially, the only way I see rationally possible to keep His beings free, and to get them to choose Him, was to do things the way He did; through Jesus Christ.

In Islam God forgives those who seek forgiveness and guides those who seek guidance. Since everyone is forgiven in Christianity, are mother Theresa and a Christian serial killer equal in heaven?

hlgomez blue
Emad black

“I think Emad was asking about the physical death”

Yes I was

the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand

You are free to believe whatever you want. However I will not base my beliefs on a mystery.

But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice.

The above doesn’t seem fair to me. Again you are free to believe what you want.

 

[JP2Admirer]

Emad,

By paying for our sins, God demonstrated true forgiveness. Justice is to pay for ones crimes, correct? In essence, justice was executed, since He paid for our crimes. That is love, and ultimately love trumps justice, since crimes can only be forgotten through forgiveness. It was ultimately righteous of Him to die for us. You are right to say it is not fair, but it is ultimately just because it expresses the only true justice, forgiveness.

Children tend to be innocent, but they can be guilty of sin. If I tell a child it is wrong to steal, and he knows it yet still commits it, he still sins. Handicapped people can sin also, although their chances of being fully cognizcant of the crime is lesser, they can still act against God willingly, and they do. The mentally ill commit sin as long as they meet the three prerequisites set out in the Catechism. Full consent, full knowledge, and deliberate action. Ethics is a subjective science, but people still sin who are ill.

Finally, not everyone is forgiven in Catholicism. Only those who seek repentence are forgiven, and they too must confess to a priest, or at the moment of death make a perfect act of contrition or have anointing of the sick before they die. The idea that all are forgiven (the common term is “saved”) is heretical.

 

[Emad]

J2PAdmirer in blue
Emad in black

By paying for our sins, God demonstrated true forgiveness. Justice is to pay for ones crimes, correct? In essence, justice was executed, since He paid for our crimes. That is love, and ultimately love trumps justice, since crimes can only be forgotten through forgiveness. It was ultimately righteous of Him to die for us. You are right to say it is not fair, but it is ultimately just because it expresses the only true justice, forgiveness.

Justice is for the criminal to pay for his crimes and not someone else. However since these crimes were committed against God, God can just forgive them. For example if you steal $100 from me, I will just forgive you. There is no need for me to punish myself for you to be forgiven. I can’t pay for your crimes becuase then I would be paying myself back $100 which wouldn’t make sense. Lets say your child curses at you. Do you have to hit or curse yourself for him to be forgiven? No you just forgive him. It is very simple.

Death is a creation of God. To say that death overtook God would mean that creation overpowered the Creator, which isn’t possible.

Children tend to be innocent, but they can be guilty of sin. If I tell a child it is wrong to steal, and he knows it yet still commits it, he still sins. Handicapped people can sin also, although their chances of being fully cognizcant of the crime is lesser, they can still act against God willingly, and they do. The mentally ill commit sin as long as they meet the three prerequisites set out in the Catechism. Full consent, full knowledge, and deliberate action. Ethics is a subjective science, but people still sin who are ill.

Children (especially 10 and under) really don’t understand things completely. What I mean about mentally ill is a person who is out of their mind and has no idea what they are doing. What sin can they possibly commit?

Finally, not everyone is forgiven in Catholicism. Only those who seek repentence are forgiven, and they too must confess to a priest, or at the moment of death make a perfect act of contrition or have anointing of the sick before they die. The idea that all are forgiven (the common term is “saved”) is heretical.

Thank you for explaining that. I thought anyone who accepts Christ as their savior will enter paradise regardless of their deeds.

 

[Reuben_J]

Emad:

We as Muslims believe that God didn’t inted for Adam to be in heaven forever. **Adam was basically telling Moses ** that humans are on earth because God predestined it for them and not because of his sin. In Islam we believe every child is born innocent and pure. In Islam children aren’t held accountable until they are mature enough to know what they are doing.

Hi Emad.

There it’s again. Adam talk to Moses. Somewhere in another thread yesterday, it mentioned in one of the Hadiths Adam met Moses.

This really confound me, mostly because I’m ignorant of your scripture.

But in the Bible, Adam lived I don’t know many century before Moses. Sorry to interrupt, but care to enlighten? I remarked on this yesterday but no answer yet.

Peace.

Reuben

 

[manx]

Question to Muslims:

If people are born with the sin of Adam and Eve, are you saying or does the Koran say that Adam and Eve were forgiven in Paradise after they disobyed God? Please give me some proof.

thanks,

manx

 

[Emad]

Reuben J:

Hi Emad.

There it’s again. Adam talk to Moses. Somewhere in another thread yesterday, it mentioned in one of the Hadiths Adam met Moses.

This really confound me, mostly because I’m ignorant of your scripture.

But in the Bible, Adam lived I don’t know many century before Moses. Sorry to interrupt, but care to enlighten? I remarked on this yesterday but no answer yet.

Peace.

Reuben

I am sorry, I thought I answered you, but it turns out I didn’t. They met in heaven, not on earth.

 

[Emad]

manx:

Question to Muslims:

If people are born with the sin of Adam and Eve, are you saying or does the Koran say that Adam and Eve were forgiven in Paradise after they disobyed God? Please give me some proof.

thanks,

manx

People are not born with the sin of Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve both seeked forgiveness and Allah forgave them both.

7;22-23
So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: “Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?”

They said: “Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost.”

 

[hlgomez]

You are free to believe whatever you want. However I will not base my beliefs on a mystery.

Emad,

God himself is a mystery beyond our understanding. Creation itself is embodied with mysteries.

You haven’t seen God, you are believing in the mystery of his being because somebody else said so that He exists. That in itself is a mystery. Since you cannot fathom God, are you then to say that you will not believe in him?

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

In Islam God forgives those who seek forgiveness and guides those who seek guidance. Since everyone is forgiven in Christianity, are mother Theresa and a Christian serial killer equal in heaven?

Emad,

The love and mercy of God is way beyond the understanding of our puny little mind. God sees how evil men are, but instead of punishing us for eternity, he has shown us His eternal love and compassion by sending us His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to deliver those who were subjected to it. Such that, anyone who believes in the name of the only Son of God will receive atonement and forgiveness of sins. No matter how red as scarlet the sin is, he can make it as white as snow.

For God so loved the world, that He gave us his only Son, Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

People are not born with the sin of Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve both seeked forgiveness and Allah forgave them both.

7;22-23
So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: “Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?”

They said: “Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost.”

Edam,

Adam and Eve were indeed forgiven of their sins. But the effect of their sins runs from generation to generation. The once opened gates of heaven were closed, that why both of them were “driven out” from Paradise.

Christ came to “restore” what was lost and opened the gates of heaven for us. He did this by making himself a sacrifice in atonement for all the sins of mankind.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

Children (especially 10 and under) really don’t understand things completely. What I mean about mentally ill is a person who is out of their mind and has no idea what they are doing. What sin can they possibly commit?

A child who can properly reason on what is good or bad will be guilty of sin that he commits. A child who cannot reason yet is not guilty of personal sins, but if remain unbaptized, will still have the stain of original sin. It is thru baptism that washes away both original and personal sins. It means that the original sin and any personal sins committed before baptism is completely wiped away, and the punishment due to them as well.

However, though original sins doesn’t “recur” but is completely gone forever, the fallen human nature is inclined to do personal sins in the future. That’s why the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession) washes away the sins being committed after baptism and restores our friendship with God. Thats how Christ gave us these Sacraments to remedy the apparent effects and consequences of our fallen human nature.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

Finally, not everyone is forgiven in Catholicism. Only those who seek repentence are forgiven, and they too must confess to a priest, or at the moment of death make a perfect act of contrition or have anointing of the sick before they die. The idea that all are forgiven (the common term is “saved”) is heretical.

Thank you for explaining that. I thought anyone who accepts Christ as their savior will enter paradise regardless of their deeds.

Edam,

We are saved by grace. Once save always saved is the error of Protestant reformers and who says that you can only be saved thru faith alone. They went to the extreme by saying you can still be saved even if you commits any kind of sins everyday, even mortal sins, because you are already saved. That’s a wrong presentation of authentic Christian theology.

In Catholic theology, we are not saved thru faith alone, nor we are saved thru works alone, but both thru the grace of God.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

In Islam God forgives those who seek forgiveness and guides those who seek guidance. Since everyone is forgiven in Christianity, are mother Theresa and a Christian serial killer equal in heaven?

Edam,

God makes no distinction between a holy person and unholy person, provided that the unholy person believes and repents of his wrongdoing. If he only believes but doesn’t repent and change his ways, how can he be forgiven?

Pio

 

[LtTony]

Emad:
You are blessed for asking questions about original sin (OS). It is not an easy subject to understand for some people; even some Christian sects disagree on it. I don’t expect you to accept the Catholic understanding of it. I’m just glad you are trying to understand our belief.
The way I heard it explained once was to think of OS as a black curtain, a black (sin) curtain behind a soul on a stage. A contrast of what a person/soul potentially choose to be. Baptism lifts the black curtain, revealing God behind it. A person can then choose to embrace Him. OS (black curtain) represents what separated us from God in the Garden of Eden. Any sin separates us from God, we believe, because God is pure and can’t have anything impure in his presence.
In Eden, God dwelt with Adam and Eve, according to the Old Testament (OT). When Adam and Eve sinned, God separated himself from them; He left, according to the OT.
I think the difficulty you are having is applying human principles (like ethics, logic, etc) to God’s plan. God uses His own “logic” not human logic. He is not bound by space, time, linear logic. He is perfect logic. Human logic is not perfect, so this causes many people problems on specific issues. Just love God and the revelation will come. Some people exercise free will and choose not to recognize the answer, however. Some recognize the answer, don’t understand it but accept it. That’s what we mean by faith.
God’s plan is perfect, even though it seemingly involves evil things that happen in the world. But eventually it will come to an all good conclusion. Patience, perseverance, prayer…faith.
Got a little off track. But I hope the first part helps.

Jim

 

[LtTony]

Wow. hlgomez, you are doing a great job! Had I had a chance to read you replies, I wouldn’t have bothered with my last post.
I can also see that a non-Christian can easily be confused by all the different (denominational) theologies within Christianity. The same thing within Islam prevents Christians from fully understanding that religion.

Jim

 

[Booklover]

LtTony:

Emad:
In Eden, God dwelt with Adam and Eve, according to the Old Testament (OT). When Adam and Eve sinned, God separated himself from them; He left, according to the OT.
Got a little off track. But I hope the first part helps.

Jim

Don’t know whether this will help! Remember too that before their fall, Adam and Eve were naked in the Garden and they didn’t even realize it. They were totally innocent. It wasn’t until they sinned, that their eyes were opened and they realized their nakedness and went to make coverings for themselves with fig leaves.

 

[Emad]

I thank everyone for their replies. I don’t accept original sin and it doesn’t seem like justice. I have heard many explanations in this thread and none of the really convinced me. However I respect your beliefs and thank you.

 

[LtTony]

Death is not something bad, it is something that God planned for us.

Catholics agree with you. Someone pointed out the distinction between physical death and spiritual death, and that is important.

“As for justice, God sent His Son to pay for those sins. In essence, He sent Himself to be punished for OUR misdeeds. He took His wrath out on Himself instead of us. That to me is the ultimate in justice.”
That is not justice at all. Lets say you are president of a company and your employees committ crimes they should be punished. For you to put yourself in jail and them go free is not fair at all.

I dislike earth-bound analogies like this but I’ll play along. What if that innocent president stepped up, took responsibility for the employees’ actions, forgave them and asked others to forgive them; and he was willing to pay the price in prison for them. That would be a beautiful thing, right? That’s the type of thing (sacrifice for your fellow man) that Jesus taught.

The above doesn’t seem fair to me…

To “me.” That’s the human logic that I was talking about, that places up roadblocks for many of us. True understanding his a grace that comes God if we submit to His will. Truth is not we possess on our own merits; it comes from God. That’s what I think most Christians believe.

Death is a creation of God. To say that death overtook God would mean that creation overpowered the Creator, which isn’t possible.
We believe Jesus was God made man, that Jesus had two natures – human and God. The human side suffered and died a physical death. But he conquered the most important death, spiritual death (Hell, Satan). By being human, He demonstrated that it is humanly possible to conquer spiritual death. If our spirit is healthy, we have no reason to fear physical death.

What I mean about mentally ill is a person who is out of their mind and has no idea what they are doing. What sin can they possibly commit?
We are really getting into tiny details here. I mean, we’d have to deal with *degrees *of mental illness and retardation to discuss it fully. A person completely out of their mind or retarded with the brain of a 2-year-old *probably *could not comitt a sin. But a mildly retarded person – say with the mind of a 14-year-old – could conceiveably committ a minor sin. However, only God knows what is in a person’s heart or mind. I leave that to Him. I spend more time being concerned with ME. (I have a mildly retarded person in my neighborhood. I sense he knows right from wrong on some matters. And some people with terrible physical diseases
Catholics are also taught that there is a reason why these disabled people exist, an apparent sad thing. Also, they will be rewarded for this burden; God will expect less of them. (Maybe they are here to remind us how lucky we are, that we should treat our healthy minds and bodies well?? Maybe they give us an opportunity to extend the love and kindness Jesus commanded us to show? God gives us help to reach Him, if we only lay down human logic and open our eyes and ears. I didn’t understand it completely when I was a child – either or both physically or spiritually. But through prayer, Scripture and obeyong Him as revealed through His (Catholic) Church, I have learned. It’s a wonderful thing, Eman.)
At least that’s what I believe. As a Catholic.
Jim

 

[Emad]

LtTony, thank you for your explanation. I really don’t have the time to reply. I will leave it at that. Personally I don’t accept it and I hope you understand that.