Were you born without sin?

[hlgomez]

I thank everyone for their replies. I don’t accept original sin and it doesn’t seem like justice. I have heard many explanations in this thread and none of the really convinced me. However I respect your beliefs and thank you.

Emad,

Thanks as well to your great questions.

If you are looking for the ultimate justice of God, it will come at the end of the world when He will no longer be a Merciful Saviour but a Judge. His first coming was to show us His love and forgiveness, His second coming is Judgement.

In addition to original sin, if there would have been no original sin nor any effects of it, we would have been technically still be in Paradise. We would have outdone and learned the weakness of Adam and Eve, our first parents. But start to see around us and question why this or that is happening in the world? Why misery affects all mankind? Why are we no longer in Paradise? After all, we didn’t commit the sins, only Adam and Eve did…

Further, since we were not created like the angels, humans and angels sins had different consequence. You can easily distinguish and know by reason why original sin only affected human beings and not the angels. Each individual angels were created “whole and entire” by God. They don’t pro-create like the humans do. On the other hand, human beings were not created that way. We procreate, we came from one single pair of parents. Hence the original sin.

When angels sinned, the other angels were not affected. There was no original sin because of their nature each being created “whole and entire”. Humans on the other hand are different. Simply because we were created in the image and likeness of the Creator resembling the unity of a family of the Trinity. That’s why when one member of the human family first sinned, the entire human race were affected. Jesus undo the effects of sin in the human family and restored it, making it united unto Himself.

God bless and may the grace of God be with you.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

Wow. hlgomez, you are doing a great job! Had I had a chance to read you replies, I wouldn’t have bothered with my last post.
I can also see that a non-Christian can easily be confused by all the different (denominational) theologies within Christianity. The same thing within Islam prevents Christians from fully understanding that religion.

Jim

Thanks LtTony.

I am still open to corrections if my posts are not in line with authentic Catholic doctrines.

God bless.

Pio

 

[exoflare]

I don’t have much time right now but there’s something that really jumps out at me now.

Emad, how would you reply to somebody who asked you why a “just” God (for indeed, as you say, he is just) would create a world in which a child can be born with AIDS because the mother contracted it before the child was conceived? Or why so many children have to live in poverty and neglect because their parents acted out of pure lust without giving any thought to the consequences of their actions? In cases like these, the child must suffer the consequences of sins that were no fault of their own, but committed by their parents.

How do you explain why a just God would allow such things?

 

[Faith101]

hlgomez:

Edam,

Adam and Eve were indeed forgiven of their sins. But the effect of their sins runs from generation to generation. The once opened gates of heaven were closed, that why both of them were “driven out” from Paradise.

Christ came to “restore” what was lost and opened the gates of heaven for us. He did this by making himself a sacrifice in atonement for all the sins of mankind.

Pio

Pio,

I didnt know that the Bible said they were forgiven for the sins. I guess i missed it, wHere is that verse?

 

[Emad]

exoflare:

I don’t have much time right now but there’s something that really jumps out at me now.

Emad, how would you reply to somebody who asked you why a “just” God (for indeed, as you say, he is just) would create a world in which a child can be born with AIDS because the mother contracted it before the child was conceived? Or why so many children have to live in poverty and neglect because their parents acted out of pure lust without giving any thought to the consequences of their actions? In cases like these, the child must suffer the consequences of sins that were no fault of their own, but committed by their parents.

How do you explain why a just God would allow such things?

Very simple. This life is a test and God tests everyone in different ways. No doubt sins have consequences that effect others, but God only hold the sinners to account. For example when two people commit fornication, a child might be born with aids, or with only a mother in his life. The sin of fornication is only on the mother. Now the child suffered consequences but I wouldn’t call him a sinner.

 

[hlgomez]

Pio,

I didnt know that the Bible said they were forgiven for the sins. I guess i missed it, wHere is that verse?

Faith101,

It’s not explicitly shown. God asked them what they did and they told the truth–this is a sign of their confession and acceptance of wrongdoing that will lead to forgiveness, and the fact that God continued to bless them and care for them is an implication of that act of forgiveness.

Also, why do you want to look at every word they talked in the Bible alone? Do you think all that is written in the Genesis are the only ones that Adam and Eve ever said to God and God to them and nothing else until Adam and Eve died? Don’t let me laugh.

Pio

 

[Faith101]

It’s not explicitly shown. God asked them what they did and they told the truth–this is a sign of their confession and acceptance of wrongdoing that will lead to forgiveness, and the fact that God continued to bless them and care for them is an implication of that act of forgiveness.

I read parts of Genesis a long time ago, so please correct me if i’m wrong. I dont believe Adam and Eve actually took responsibility at first, they blamed it on someone else (adam on eve and maybe eve on the devil?)

Also, why do you want to look at every word they talked in the Bible alone?

I would think that if its something important, then it would be in there. When its left out, it leaves a lot of confusion. I’ve met many Christians who believe that the original sin is just that…the inherited sin that people have acquired b/c of adam and eve’s **unforgiveble ** sin.

If it was clear that they were forgiven, like in the Quran…it wouldnt me an issue.

Do you think all that is written in the Genesis are the only ones that Adam and Eve ever said to God and God to them and nothing else until Adam and Eve died? Don’t let me laugh.

lol…ofcourse not! But if its something important, then it should be in there. Dont you agree?

 

[fatuma]

If Jesus (pbuh) died for mankind’s sins, wouldn’t it have made sense for the human race to end there? What is the point of things going on as they are and wanting for Judgment Day? And what was the point of going down to hell and forgiving the sins of the previous generations if the rest of mankind doesn’t get this because there are still disbelievers after the ‘crucifixion’?

wa salam

 

[hlgomez]

If Jesus (pbuh) died for mankind’s sins, wouldn’t it have made sense for the human race to end there? What is the point of things going on as they are and wanting for Judgment Day?

When Jesus came, it was not the day of Judgement, but the day of Mercy and Forgiveness. The end didn’t end there because the Mercy of God is being bestowed to those generation of Jesus times and is being extended up to our time because God is so patient that He wants everyone to be saved. Though not everyone will accept Him; but to those who will accept Him, He will give them power to become children of God. They will drive out demons, heal the sick, make the lame walk, and many wonderful things will be done under this Name–JESUS, the Christ.

And what was the point of going down to hell and forgiving the sins of the previous generations if the rest of mankind doesn’t get this because there are still disbelievers after the ‘crucifixion’?

The correct term is abode of the dead. During that time when Jesus descended into “hell” there were two regions, one for the damned, one for those who were still waiting for the Messiah. Satan held them captive, Christ came to break those chains of captivity.

If right now you still refuse to believe, and continue to disbelieve, you will be judged by the Great Judge–Jesus Christ–at His Second Coming. He loves you so much. So now is the time of salvation, repent and believe and be baptized! God is showing you his merciful love until now, but you still don’t believe in the Name of the Only Son of God who died for you 2000 years ago. Be counted among his holy ones, and your reward will not be 72 virgins, but eternal life with the Most Holy Trinity.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

I read parts of Genesis a long time ago, so please correct me if i’m wrong. I dont believe Adam and Eve actually took responsibility at first, they blamed it on someone else (adam on eve and maybe eve on the devil?)

faith101,

Read the passages carefully. You will noticed that indeed they tried to blame the serpent, but it was the effect due to their original innocence. Whether they claim the responsibility or not, the devil was part of that tragedy.

I

would think that if its something important, then it would be in there. When its left out, it leaves a lot of confusion. I’ve met many Christians who believe that the original sin is just that…the inherited sin that people have acquired b/c of adam and eve’s **unforgiveble **sin.

Everything was important and highlighted. Don’t believe in any other definition of original sin except the definition of the Catholic Church. That’s the sure, authentic, and true doctrine of the faith, not somebody else opinion or explanation.

lol…ofcourse not! But if its something important, then it should be in there. Dont you agree?

This is why we rely in the interpretation of the Church, not the interpretation of the individual person. The Church has explained it (original sin), it is the doctrine of the faith. The Word of God and His revelation is not deposited in the Bible but in the Church.

Pio

 

[fatuma]

I’m paraphrasing here but there is a surah in the Quran that says: When judgment is over and the people have been sorted into heaven and hell and the people of hell are in agony cursing the devil for their misfortunate, he (the devil) will come down into the center of hell standing on a platform for all to see and he will give a speech. In it he will say do not cruse me, cruse yourselves for God made you a promise and I made you a promise but God kept his promise but mine was full of hot air. Don’t ask me for help for I can not even save myself from the fires of hell.

wa salam

 

[hlgomez]

I’m paraphrasing here but there is a surah in the Quran that says: When judgment is over and the people have been sorted into heaven and hell and the people of hell are in agony cursing the devil for their misfortunate, he (the devil) will come down into the center of hell standing on a platform for all to see and he will give a speech. In it he will say do not cruse me, cruse yourselves for God made you a promise and I made you a promise but God kept his promise but mine was full of hot air. Don’t ask me for help for I can not even save myself from the fires of hell.

wa salam

That’s an illusion of Muhammad.

Pio

 

[exoflare]

Emad:

Very simple. This life is a test and God tests everyone in different ways. No doubt sins have consequences that effect others, but God only hold the sinners to account. For example when two people commit fornication, a child might be born with aids, or with only a mother in his life. The sin of fornication is only on the mother. Now the child suffered consequences but I wouldn’t call him a sinner.

That’s basically what we believe though… that the parents’ sins have effects on the children. One of those effects is the tendency towards sin. We’re not saying the baby is accountable for any personal sin as soon as it’s born. Personal sin is different from original sin. Sorry if that wasn’t made clear before.

 

[puzzleannie]

anybody who spends any time at all with small children knows they are born with a propensity to sin, the first word they learn is NO, just like our first parents, Adam and Eve, they would rather resist their parents and get hurt than obey and be safe. Original sin can be demonstrated by the study of history and the observation of human behavior. It is probably, as I think Chesterton claims, the most easily verifiable doctrine. Naturally, for a small child who has not yet reached the age of reason, their naughty actions are not sins, but they are still naughty, and they still arise out of the human propensity to deny authority and to persist in forbidden actions even in the face of threatened harm. God does not punish us for our own sins, or for original sin, out of the blue, the punishment results in the natural consequences of sin. sin is forbidden precisely because it leads to harmful consequences.

 

[ronald]

Emad:

Yes this is an authentic hadith. Adam and Moses met in paradise, however look at the outcome “so Adam overcame Moses with his argument”

EMAD, i asked gonzales where is muhammad now? He said he is in his grave just like anyone else who’s died. Which one is true adam and moses in heaven or in the grave just like anyone else according to Qur’an? but i believe muhammad is in his grave waiting judgement of Jesus who will come from heaven ( with imam Mahdi in qur’an ) on last day.

 

[onestop]

According to Islam, an angel once ask Him, "Oh God, why do you still want to create human, when you already know they would cause much distructions and sins among themselves in the world? " God’s answer is a simple one, “Only I KNOWS and only I DECIDES everything.”