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reccanboy
Guest
Moses had to observe the Law in order to be in a state of grace, did he not? So why did Paul say that by the works of the Law no flesh shall be justified?
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William1964
Guest
To be more precise the law cannot justify anyone once the new covenant is established. The old is no more, made void. The Jewdiers of the time kept bringing up the significance of the mosaic law and how it must be followed. Christ made all things new. It is no longer salvific once Christ church and His gospel is established.
I say this subject to the magisterial teaching of the church. Before the gospel yes, people were justified by the law. However, they did not achieve “santifying grace”.
Our Lord spoke of St. John the Baptist and how great he was. As a matter of fact he was greater then any before him. But, our Lord said, the least in the kingdom is greater then he.
Baptism brings the indwelling of the trinity. Santifying grace.
This was not achieved by virtue of the old law.
I say this subject to the magisterial teaching of the church. Before the gospel yes, people were justified by the law. However, they did not achieve “santifying grace”.
Our Lord spoke of St. John the Baptist and how great he was. As a matter of fact he was greater then any before him. But, our Lord said, the least in the kingdom is greater then he.
Baptism brings the indwelling of the trinity. Santifying grace.
This was not achieved by virtue of the old law.
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Crumpy
Guest
I am a light-weight when it comes to discussing such things, but I sense that the Jews were justified not by the law (or the observance of the law), but by the Sinai covenant. A robot might do the things to obey the law, but a robot doesn’t have a covenant with God.
I don’t think a Jew was ever justified by mere superficial observance of the law. I don’t think any Jew would ever claim that.
As many have said, the New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament. From our vantage point we know that the Messiah and New Covenant were promised and foreshadowed as the means of salvation.
The Jews realized in OT times and now in modern Times that “Judaism” is not a world religion. They have interpreted it as a private affair, largely, being satisfied with being different and separated from their neighbors.
I don’t think a Jew was ever justified by mere superficial observance of the law. I don’t think any Jew would ever claim that.
As many have said, the New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament. From our vantage point we know that the Messiah and New Covenant were promised and foreshadowed as the means of salvation.
The Jews realized in OT times and now in modern Times that “Judaism” is not a world religion. They have interpreted it as a private affair, largely, being satisfied with being different and separated from their neighbors.
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Cachonga
Guest
Grace has always been the means of justification. Abraham didn’t have the Law, but was justified by God; Moses was justified and used mightily by God before he was given the Law; David, who should have been stoned to death according to the Law (along with Bathsheba), was justified by God and even called “a man after God’s own heart”. Look at what Paul said of the Law - “Why then was the law? It was set because of transgressions, until the seed should come, to whom he made the promise, being ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not of one: but God is one. Was the law then against the promises of God? God forbid. For if there had been a law given which could give life, verily justice should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise, by the faith of Jesus Christ, might be given to them that believe. But before the faith came, we were kept under the law shut up, unto that faith which was to be revealed. Wherefore the law was our pedagogue in Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a pedagogue.” (Gal 3:19-25 DR)
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ejb21
Guest
I could be wrong here, but I think many of the Jews thought they were justified solely by being children of Abraham. Paul tried to point out to them that they were children of Adam.
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reccanboy
Guest
What would you say to Paul’s statement that: “By the works of the Law, no flesh shall be justified”?To be more precise the law cannot justify anyone once the new covenant is established. The old is no more, made void. The Jewdiers of the time kept bringing up the significance of the mosaic law and how it must be followed. Christ made all things new. It is no longer salvific once Christ church and His gospel is established.
I say this subject to the magisterial teaching of the church. Before the gospel yes, people were justified by the law. However, they did not achieve “santifying grace”.
Our Lord spoke of St. John the Baptist and how great he was. As a matter of fact he was greater then any before him. But, our Lord said, the least in the kingdom is greater then he.
Baptism brings the indwelling of the trinity. Santifying grace.
This was not achieved by virtue of the old law.
W
William1964
Guest
I’m sorry if I wasn’t too clear in my response.What would you say to Paul’s statement that: “By the works of the Law, no flesh shall be justified”?
St. Paul was writting his letters over twenty years after our Lord’s Ascension. His church is established. By the works of the Law, no flesh shall be justified. Now one must be justified by the teaching of the gospel.
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reccanboy
Guest
Interesting, but Paul also said: "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Galatians 3:10-11I’m sorry if I wasn’t too clear in my response.
St. Paul was writting his letters over twenty years after our Lord’s Ascension. His church is established. By the works of the Law, no flesh shall be justified. Now one must be justified by the teaching of the gospel.
For Paul, even in the Old Testament, you couldn’t be justified by the Law.
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NHInsider
Guest
Paul points out that no one could be justified by the Law alone because no one could keep the Law perfectly. But the Law served the purpose of showing us what God asked of us, and so “condemned” us because we knew we could not keep it.
Grace provides for forgiveness and restoration - Grace provided by the Passion of Jesus, which we receive by faith.
Under the Old Covenant, the faithful received that grace by faithfully accepting the means of salvation God provided - the whole sacrificial system which pointed to and received its power from the Perfect Sacrifice of Jesus. Under the New Covenant we, too, receive grace by faith, and participate even more perfectly because the Eucharist does not only point to the Sacrifice on the Cross but makes it Present to us.
Grace provides for forgiveness and restoration - Grace provided by the Passion of Jesus, which we receive by faith.
Under the Old Covenant, the faithful received that grace by faithfully accepting the means of salvation God provided - the whole sacrificial system which pointed to and received its power from the Perfect Sacrifice of Jesus. Under the New Covenant we, too, receive grace by faith, and participate even more perfectly because the Eucharist does not only point to the Sacrifice on the Cross but makes it Present to us.
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firstmode
Guest
Hebrews 11:4-39
4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring** will be reckoned.”[c] 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea[d] as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[e]
32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.**
4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring** will be reckoned.”[c] 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.
23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea[d] as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.
31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[e]
32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.**
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William1964
Guest
Don’t forget James 2:24- Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?Interesting, but Paul also said: "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Galatians 3:10-11
For Paul, even in the Old Testament, you couldn’t be justified by the Law.
St. Paul did not say " The righteous shall live by faith alone" That’s what Luther added. Don’t fall into to that trap. No one was justified by the law alone. There is much written about our Lord saying how this people performs the outward signs but theirs hearts are far from Him. The crucial Grace of faith and love is always necessary to please God. In the old and new covenant. Remember in the old covenant the law, faith and love is was necessary. It’s the same in the new covenant. The fullness of that faith was born and continues to be held in the Catholic church.
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reccanboy
Guest
The Judaizers in the epistle to Galatians didn’t believe that they were justified by the Law alone…they also believed in the sacrificial death of Jesus.Paul points out that no one could be justified by the Law alone because no one could keep the Law perfectly. But the Law served the purpose of showing us what God asked of us, and so “condemned” us because we knew we could not keep it.
Grace provides for forgiveness and restoration - Grace provided by the Passion of Jesus, which we receive by faith.
Under the Old Covenant, the faithful received that grace by faithfully accepting the means of salvation God provided - the whole sacrificial system which pointed to and received its power from the Perfect Sacrifice of Jesus. Under the New Covenant we, too, receive grace by faith, and participate even more perfectly because the Eucharist does not only point to the Sacrifice on the Cross but makes it Present to us.
So what makes the sacramental system any different than the Mosaic law?
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NHInsider
Guest
Jesus’ actual Presence and Action in the rituals He prescribed.The Judaizers in the epistle to Galatians didn’t believe that they were justified by the Law alone…they also believed in the sacrificial death of Jesus.
So what makes the sacramental system any different than the Mosaic law?
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