Western christianity and total failure in ascetism & mortification

[Marybeloved]

Here is one area where the East beats the West hands down with a clean Ten-nil defeat! I’m sure that this is just not how I see it. What in God’s name happened? Why are Westerns so oblivious to self denial, That is: Exterior mortification (fasting and physically tasking devotions) and therefore also interior mortification (renunciation of the will etc) because obviously one affects the other .

For example:
How many Catholics, Anglo-cathoics, Evangelical catholics, Lutherans and members of other Western liturgical churches pray the stations of the cross on Fridays, or even during lent?
How many fast, even on Good Friday or Lenten Fridays?
How many perform pilgrimages to Our Lady with the attendant walking and fasting and praying (rather than driving most of the distance and munching or sipping on a few goodies here and there)?

I must say this falls on the shoulders of Catholics! I’m pretty sure that if the catholic church properly practiced these things, they would be more widespread in the West than they are now.

Do the other protestants fast regularly? Do they fast as self-denial and strictly for spiritual growth or just “for a breakthrough” in temporal problems?

Perhaps this failure is part of the reason that such a selfish, individualistic “I deserve” attitude prevails in western culture and is fast spreading everywhere in the whole planet.

 

[Regina_Love]

Our poverty of self denial also reigns over our sexuality. No sexual denial leads to no sexual self control, soooo people cheat on their spouse even though they love them, and end up divorced. Since they never practiced chastity when dating,they never developed the CAPACITY for sexual self control. Christian Marriage demands sexual self control. true love cannot exist with out it!
Shack up couples have at least an 80% divorce rate. Couples who practice Natural Family Planning have less than a 3% divorce rate! Hmmmmmm

 

[Dan_Daly]

An interesting and important issue.

This is a result of the divorce between the physical and spiritual that modernism attempts (if it doesn’t deny the spiritual outright that is).

“It doesn’t matter what I (eat/wear/drink/buy/etc)…God sees me on the inside, and the inside is all that matters” goes the argument.

We are physical and spiritual creatures. The supernatural is just as real as the natural. What happens on the outside- what we eat/wear/drink/buy/etc affects what happens on the inside- in our soul.

I’ll be interested to read other comments in the thread. I’d highly recommend the book: Happy are you Poor by Thomas Dubay, for a good Catholic articulation of the need to reexamine the materialism in our culture and the call to self denial.

Pax Christi

 

[ConstantineTG]

The problem in the West is legalism has replaced true spiritual direction. People do because they are told, not because they know why they should do. Ask around the board about fasting, and you’ll get answers quoting Canon Law. People will say we fast because the Church says so. Not a good way to live a spiritual life that is geared towards God. Our objective in live is to be with God, and we get there by understanding what it takes to get there. Rules are meant to be guides on what to do to achieve that. But if we see the rules only, then we do not understand the actions and therefore it doesn’t make any effect on our soul.

 

[Jack_Bauer]

Our poverty of self denial also reigns over our sexuality. No sexual denial leads to no sexual self control, soooo people cheat on their spouse even though they love them, and end up divorced. Since they never practiced chastity when dating,they never developed the CAPACITY for sexual self control. Christian Marriage demands sexual self control. true love cannot exist with out it!
Shack up couples have at least an 80% divorce rate. Couples who practice Natural Family Planning have less than a 3% divorce rate! Hmmmmmm

I would say that these are more indicative factors that reasons marriages fail or last. If couples are devout enough in their faith to work at something so difficult, their faith in God must be higher than the norm/average. Those that shack up are merely in it for the pleasure and not the meaning. That’s why they can’t or won’t give all of themselves to their spouse. Do you see what I am saying?

 

[Dan_Daly]

The problem in the West is legalism has replaced true spiritual direction. People do because they are told, not because they know why they should do. Ask around the board about fasting, and you’ll get answers quoting Canon Law. People will say we fast because the Church says so. Not a good way to live a spiritual life that is geared towards God. Our objective in live is to be with God, and we get there by understanding what it takes to get there. Rules are meant to be guides on what to do to achieve that. But if we see the rules only, then we do not understand the actions and therefore it doesn’t make any effect on our soul.

I think you have a point, but I think it captures only a small part of the problem. The vast majority of Catholics don’t have the problem of doing what they are supposed to only because they are supposed to…they have the problem of NOT doing what they are supposed to because they don’t know or don’t care about what is required.

How else to explain 50% not attending Mass on Sundays, 80% or more contracepting, etc? Legalism is an issue for some, but legalism is not the main source of laxity.

Pax Christi

 

[Marybeloved]

I suppose the big thing is a failure in spiritual formation along with doctrinal catechesis.

I only wonder how it all broke down.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I suppose the big thing is a failure in spiritual formation along with doctrinal catechesis.

I only wonder how it all broke down.

That is a question many of us wonder about.

I would highly suggest the book* Truth and Turmoil* by Philip Trower. I find his analysis quite well reasoned. Many blame Vatican II or “the spirit” of Vatican II. While many problems became more visible after the Council, the problems existed long before that.

One of his insights which particularly struck me:

There is an unofficial but no less real alliance between:

1. Dissident Theologians who wished to push modernist ideology but didn’t really care much about practical daily morality.

and

1. Dissident lay men and women who want Church approval or at least indifference to divorce and contraception, but don’t really care about larger questions of theology.

The two groups have supported each other and allow each other to continue their dissidency.

The whole book is very worth reading. It’s not super long, but jam packed with good information and well reasoned commentary.

Another very good book that speaks more specifically to the question of the breakdown in catechesis in the United States is Designed to Fail by Steven Kellmeyer. Kellmeyer, like Trower, takes the long view and tries to seek out the real roots of the problems rather than chalking everything up to the 1960s.

Pax Christi

 

[Andromedus]

I think you have a point, but I think it captures only a small part of the problem. The vast majority of Catholics don’t have the problem of doing what they are supposed to only because they are supposed to…they have the problem of NOT doing what they are supposed to because they don’t know or don’t care about what is required.

How else to explain 50% not attending Mass on Sundays, 80% or more contracepting, etc? Legalism is an issue for some, but legalism is not the main source of laxity.

Pax Christi

But there are also some people who do know and care also but for them there is no sense in it, whatever specific practice it might be, and since they perhaps think that the reason for why the Church don’t allow (pick something) is not a good reason they can not do it wholeheartedly. Maybe they just don’t understands the reason. It could be the same for things the Church says you should do also. That means in the end that the only answer they get is ‘‘just do what you are told’’ which most people thinks is an unsatisfying answer.
For myself, I won’t deny that I have always thought it was weird that God forbid people to eat pork, especially since it is ok for us to eat it now, but we can so that is another discussion. But like you said, this might not be the main reason, but sometimes I think it can be a problem that the Church only tells people what they are supposed to do but not why they are supposed to do it, or not do it. If the Catholics are a small minority and the society they live in don’t share their values it is perhaps even more important since then the possibility of those values being questioned is high and then they will need to be able to argue and give answers to people.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think you have a point, but I think it captures only a small part of the problem. The vast majority of Catholics don’t have the problem of doing what they are supposed to only because they are supposed to…they have the problem of NOT doing what they are supposed to because they don’t know or don’t care about what is required.

How else to explain 50% not attending Mass on Sundays, 80% or more contracepting, etc? Legalism is an issue for some, but legalism is not the main source of laxity.

Pax Christi

I think legalism has its hand with it. Because many fall away from the Church because they don’t know why they are doing something anymore. I’ve known people who stopped going to church because they don’t know why they go anymore. All they know they are told to do so and they are violent to the fact that they have to worship God in a certain day of the week when any other day is as good as Sunday. Of course thats not the truth, but as is my previous point, if people don’t know the reason behind the practice, the practice becomes trivialized.

 

[KathleenGee]

ConstantineTG…I also wonder if it is the danger of building too much of a relationship with the world…it seems many holy days are being excused.

Best remedy is to promote the Cross…I saw a very interesting program, ‘Catholicism’…first beginning with detachment…so necessary for growth in the spiritual life. I was in a parish where the Dominican was teaching the spiritual life, and introduced me to John Climacus. He also spoke many times of Mother Theresa…ascetic life pointing to love of the poorest…

Jesus came to tell us that we are most happy when we follow Him, denying pride, power, greed, and self…and He showed us the way through the Cross…so if we see that losing our life brings us joy…as the commentator said, reflecting as well St. Francis of Assisi…that the Cross is first and foremost the sign of joy…triumph over things, position, power, and self…to give us life.

The other great help to remedy the valid concerns you have, is Our Lady of Fatima who exhorted us to a life of penance, but to make everything each day a sacrifice of love for Christ, and to be and do all for the love of Christ.

You don’t hear the message much promoted in parishes, but there are lay, priests, and religious who promote Our Lady’s request in the apostolate.

 

[Marybeloved]

ConstantineTG…I also wonder if it is the danger of building too much of a relationship with the world…it seems many holy days are being excused.

Best remedy is to promote the Cross…I saw a very interesting program, ‘Catholicism’…first beginning with detachment…so necessary for growth in the spiritual life. I was in a parish where the Dominican was teaching the spiritual life, and introduced me to John Climacus. He also spoke many times of Mother Theresa…ascetic life pointing to love of the poorest…

Jesus came to tell us that we are most happy when we follow Him, denying pride, power, greed, and self…and He showed us the way through the Cross…so if we see that losing our life brings us joy…as the commentator said, reflecting as well St. Francis of Assisi…that the Cross is first and foremost the sign of joy…triumph over things, position, power, and self…to give us life.

The other great help to remedy the valid concerns you have, is Our Lady of Fatima who exhorted us to a life of penance, but to make everything each day a sacrifice of love for Christ, and to be and do all for the love of Christ.

You don’t hear the message much promoted in parishes, but there are lay, priests, and religious who promote Our Lady’s request in the apostolate.

 

[CopticChristian]

Here is one area where the East beats the West hands down with a clean Ten-nil defeat! I’m sure that this is just not how I see it. What in God’s name happened? Why are Westerns so oblivious to self denial, That is: Exterior mortification (fasting and physically tasking devotions) and therefore also interior mortification (renunciation of the will etc) because obviously one affects the other .

For example:
How many Catholics, Anglo-cathoics, Evangelical catholics, Lutherans and members of other Western liturgical churches pray the stations of the cross on Fridays, or even during lent?
How many fast, even on Good Friday or Lenten Fridays?
How many perform pilgrimages to Our Lady with the attendant walking and fasting and praying (rather than driving most of the distance and munching or sipping on a few goodies here and there)?

I must say this falls on the shoulders of Catholics! I’m pretty sure that if the catholic church properly practiced these things, they would be more widespread in the West than they are now.

Do the other protestants fast regularly? Do they fast as self-denial and strictly for spiritual growth or just “for a breakthrough” in temporal problems?

Perhaps this failure is part of the reason that such a selfish, individualistic “I deserve” attitude prevails in western culture and is fast spreading everywhere in the whole planet.

I have had this discussion with Protestant acquaintances. There is no Protestant tradition of self denial that I am aware of. The Protestant thought does not entertain the notion of Monastery or eunoch for the kingdom. Ascetism is not a Protestant phenomonen as I am aware and my Protestant acquantances sadly admit that the Catholic Church has a long history of these practices.

The best you will get is an invitation to Florida by TBN for a trip to their Holy Land…as opposed to Disneyland.

 

[KathleenGee]

I get Catholic catalogues that have many materials on living the ascetic, spiritual life. The lives the saints have always been great teachers in drawing us closer to Christ.

Another subject I discovered while raising small children were the virtues as taught by monastics.

Those who seek the truth will find it. Those who taste God will never hunger for anything else.

 

[I_Thirst]

I’ll be interested to read other comments in the thread. I’d highly recommend the book: Happy are you Poor by Thomas Dubay, for a good Catholic articulation of the need to reexamine the materialism in our culture and the call to self denial.

A hearty second recommendation! What a book!

 

[Contarini]

I have had this discussion with Protestant acquaintances. There is no Protestant tradition of self denial that I am aware of.

Well, you have some learning to do then. It’s easier for modern Protestants to deny this tradition than it is for Catholics, because of the loose Protestant relationship to tradition, the endless splintering, and the nature of Protestant soteriology, which can certainly be twisted to support a self-indulgent approach to life.

But in fact many of the Protestant Reformers spoke a great deal about self-denial. Martin Bucer, the guy I wrote my dissertation on, sees it as the heart of the Christian life in many ways. And lest you dismiss him just because he’s not a household name, you find basically the same view of the Christian life in Calvin. Weber (though he got a lot of things wrong, and himself didn’t claim that his “Calvinist ethic” was found in Calvin!) was onto something when he talked about “inner-worldly asceticism.” The Protestant model of self-denial is to live “in the world” as a husband/wife, parent, employer/employee, etc., but to do so in a disciplined manner, avoiding anything that distracts you from God and directing all your energies toward the love of God and neighbor. There’s a reason why the Imitatio Christi has been endlessly popular among Protestants!

This sermon by John Wesley is a good example of Protestant teaching on self-denial. Note that he claims that self-denial has been more emphasized since the Reformation (a claim at least as dubious as yours, in my opinion), while acknowledging that “antinomian” Protestants (especially, as he sees it, evangelical Calvinists, though he’s a bit unfair to them too) of his own day do not acknowledge the importance of self-denial.

Since he’s a bit short on specifics in that sermon, here are the General Rules drawn up by Wesley for the use of his “societies.”

Here is the moderate Puritan Richard Baxter on “The Sinfulness of Flesh-Pleasing.”

With regard to the Puritans one often has to fight the opposite error–that they were hyper-ascetic, gloomy people who didn’t think that any pleasure was legitimate and are to be distinguished in this regard from the healthier Catholic approach. That isn’t correct either. Compare Baxter to Thomas A Kempis, and Baxter is a bit more moderate, but the tone is very similar.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Here is one area where the East beats the West hands down with a clean Ten-nil defeat! I’m sure that this is just not how I see it.

Here’s one way of looking at it (besides the others that people have suggested, which are also legitimate):

The East has a very different approach than the West to matters of discipline. The Eastern Churches have a concept called “economia,” which essentially means that you have a standard set by the Church but make allowances for people failing to live up to it. That means that the standard can be set very high indeed, because the consequences for failing to live up to it aren’t as huge.

The more you insist that everyone must live up to the standard, the lower the standard will be set.

The Western Church, in the High Middle Ages, adopted what the East sees as a highly “legalistic” approach to matters of discipline. One manifestation of this was the insistence that all laypeople must live up to certain minimal requirements: for instance, receive communion once a year and go to confession before doing so. Similarly, the consequences in the Western Church of not going to Mass on Sundays and holy days, or of not following the rules of fasting, are very severe. This puts pressure on the Church to lower the requirements so that everyone can meet them. In the East, there’s less pressure of this kind, and in my opinion the concept of “economia” is partly responsible.

On the whole I prefer the Eastern approach, but one drawback of it is that at some times and places almost no laypeople have received communion, because they aren’t required to in the same way Western Catholics are and because their ideas of the ascetic discipline required to prepare for communion are pretty strict. I understand that in Ethiopia it’s quite rare for an adult layperson to receive the Eucharist until the point of death.

Edwin

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Contarini for informative post…

What a time to forget about the Puritans a few days before Thanksgiving…

The Eastern Orthodox are more inward, more mystical…I think of Pope Pius X who encouraged frequent communion. Personally, I would like to see the communion rail returned, and uphold our holy days, and fasting from meat on Friday’s, as they are resuming now in England.

 

[Cider]

I suppose the big thing is a failure in spiritual formation along with doctrinal catechesis.

I only wonder how it all broke down.

The reformation.

And you seem to already know that, since you posted this in Non Catholic religions and cite protestant churches in your OP.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, you have some learning to do then. It’s easier for modern Protestants to deny this tradition than it is for Catholics, because of the loose Protestant relationship to tradition, the endless splintering, and the nature of Protestant soteriology, which can certainly be twisted to support a self-indulgent approach to life.

But in fact many of the Protestant Reformers spoke a great deal about self-denial. Martin Bucer, the guy I wrote my dissertation on, sees it as the heart of the Christian life in many ways. And lest you dismiss him just because he’s not a household name, you find basically the same view of the Christian life in Calvin. Weber (though he got a lot of things wrong, and himself didn’t claim that his “Calvinist ethic” was found in Calvin!) was onto something when he talked about “inner-worldly asceticism.” The Protestant model of self-denial is to live “in the world” as a husband/wife, parent, employer/employee, etc., but to do so in a disciplined manner, avoiding anything that distracts you from God and directing all your energies toward the love of God and neighbor. There’s a reason why the Imitatio Christi has been endlessly popular among Protestants!

This sermon by John Wesley is a good example of Protestant teaching on self-denial. Note that he claims that self-denial has been more emphasized since the Reformation (a claim at least as dubious as yours, in my opinion), while acknowledging that “antinomian” Protestants (especially, as he sees it, evangelical Calvinists, though he’s a bit unfair to them too) of his own day do not acknowledge the importance of self-denial.

Since he’s a bit short on specifics in that sermon, here are the General Rules drawn up by Wesley for the use of his “societies.”

Here is the moderate Puritan Richard Baxter on “The Sinfulness of Flesh-Pleasing.”

With regard to the Puritans one often has to fight the opposite error–that they were hyper-ascetic, gloomy people who didn’t think that any pleasure was legitimate and are to be distinguished in this regard from the healthier Catholic approach. That isn’t correct either. Compare Baxter to Thomas A Kempis, and Baxter is a bit more moderate, but the tone is very similar.

Edwin

Historical notes are great Edwin. Thank you. Translate that to a monastery today that is Protestant. Translate that today to a group that encourages and invites ascetism. No one questions the past. You can learn from it. What is relevant is today. Tradition without practice is learning. Tradition with practice is action. Show me some action.

Use this search engine to discover Protestant ascetism

dogpile.com/info.dogpl.t4.2/search/home

This is wikipedia

Protestant Christians vary widely in their attitudes toward and practices of asceticism. The Protestant reformers often strongly criticized monasticism and Catholic ascetical practices, contrasting these human works through which people participate in working out their salvation, with “faith alone” in Jesus as savior. Some Protestants are vehement about this to the point of rejecting the whole idea of asceticism, citing St. Paul’s teaching in his epistle to the Romans that justification is by faith in Jesus rather than by works such as adherence to Jewish law or similarly in 1 Timothy 4:2-3 speaks against those who would turn Christians away from true faith by imposing unnecessary religious rules: “liars with branded consciences… forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God required to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.” However, many Protestants embrace “spiritual disciplines” such as fasting and disciplined dedication to prayer as a positive and Biblically based means of growth in the Christian life. The Lutheran Church encourages fasting during Lent, similar to the Roman Catholic teaching. Individuals in mainline Pentecostal denominations undertake both short and extended fasts as they believe the Holy Spirit leads them.

What shows up most is Protestanism and the Spirit of Capitalism.

Your notion of the past is appreciated. I want something that was the same yesterday, today and will be the same tommorrow…I find this notion of ascetism lacking in Protestanism in general however in certain elements it may be present and the question is where did the notion of ascetism spring from…OHCAC.

I am always up for teaching and leraning. Are you in that same frame of mind?