Western christianity and total failure in ascetism & mortification

[Contarini]

Historical notes are great Edwin. Thank you. Translate that to a monastery today that is Protestant.

That doesn’t make sense. Historic Protestant piety holds that self-denial is to be cultivated in the normal affairs of human life, not in a monastery. You are equating lack of monasticism with lack of a tradition of self-denial, and that’s a mistake. (Now I think you can make a good case that the lack of monasticism has made the Protestant tradition of self-denial much harder to maintain. On the other hand, monasticism has itself shown a tendency to become corrupt over time, shared with all other institutions and traditions, so the difference may not really be that great. In Protestantism, as in Catholicism, whenever the spiritual disciplines appear to have been lost the Holy Spirit stirs up a renewal movement. I do think Catholics have an advantage because of the historic continuity–Protestant movements are prone to reinvent the wheel!)

Translate that today to a group that encourages and invites ascetism.

Google “new monasticism.” Google “spiritual disciplines” (or visit this website).

And then there are the traditional groups that still hang on, and the young people who occasionally find their way to them. I knew a guy in grad school who became New Order Amish.

No one questions the past.

Actually you did. You said that there was no tradition of self-denial. Now that I’ve shown you to be wrong, you shift your ground instead of admitting error.

Use this search engine to discover Protestant ascetism

dogpile.com/info.dogpl.t4.2/search/home

This is wikipedia

What shows up most is Protestanism and the Spirit of Capitalism.

Yes. That’s why that’s not the best search term to use. (Weber was onto something with his “inner-worldly asceticism” and his account of how this functioned in a secularized, post-Protestant world, but I think most scholars of Puritanism would say he got Baxter and other seventeenth-century figures wrong, and he himself admitted that Calvin did not teach what he calls the “Calvinist” view.)

Try the terms I suggested above instead.

Edwin

 

[Hesychios]

I suppose the big thing is a failure in spiritual formation along with doctrinal catechesis.

I only wonder how it all broke down.

See post #4 … oh, and #17

It’s the focus.

 

[jam070406]

See post #4 … oh, and #17

It’s the focus.

I don’t think it’s nearly as simplistic as post #4. While I agree it could be part of the problem. I just read that Romania claims to be 87% Orthodox but a significantly lower number actually attend Church regularly. The influences of the world play a huge factor.

 

[Contarini]

I don’t think it’s nearly as simplistic as post #4. While I agree it could be part of the problem. I just read that Romania claims to be 87% Orthodox but a significantly lower number actually attend Church regularly. The influences of the world play a huge factor.

Right. The difference, for good and bad, is that the Orthodox Church doesn’t have as clear rules saying that the people who don’t attend church regularly are in mortal sin. So they feel less resentment and more attachment to the Church. The culture is saturated with Orthodoxy (though I know that’s true in Catholic countries as well).

People who may or may not go to church regularly will still eat “mancare de post” (fasting food,essentially vegetarian–the dish I remember being offered had lots of eggplant!) during Advent. Again, this may or may not be better. It’s at least somewhat different.

Edwin

 

[jam070406]

Right. The difference, for good and bad, is that the Orthodox Church doesn’t have as clear rules saying that the people who don’t attend church regularly are in mortal sin. So they feel less resentment and more attachment to the Church. The culture is saturated with Orthodoxy (though I know that’s true in Catholic countries as well).

People who may or may not go to church regularly will still eat “mancare de post” (fasting food,essentially vegetarian–the dish I remember being offered had lots of eggplant!) during Advent. Again, this may or may not be better. It’s at least somewhat different.

Edwin

You mean they follow the rules?

 

[CopticChristian]

That doesn’t make sense. Historic Protestant piety holds that self-denial is to be cultivated in the normal affairs of human life, not in a monastery.

Google “new monasticism.” Google “spiritual disciplines” (or visit this website).

I knew a guy in grad school who became New Order Amish.

Actually you did. You said that there was no tradition of self-denial. Now that I’ve shown you to be wrong, you shift your ground instead of admitting error.

Yes. That’s why that’s not the best search term to use.
Try the terms I suggested above instead.

Edwin

You have an unusual way in answering a question. However you answered indirectly. There is no Protestant Monastery. I answered the posting as it was originally intended. It would be safe to say that since you prefer the East to the West and since Protestants as you see it do not practice ascetism in a monastery I would be correct in saying that there is no Protestant Monastery.

You infered that I was equating lack of monasticism with lack of a tradition of self-denial, and that’s a mistake. I believe your mistake is to infer that I equated anything with anything you believe I inferred. I asked for a monastery you said there are none and that answers the question. Thank you…

How many Catholics, Anglo-cathoics, Evangelical catholics, Lutherans and members of other Western liturgical churches pray the stations of the cross on Fridays, or even during lent?
How many fast, even on Good Friday or Lenten Fridays?
How many perform pilgrimages to Our Lady with the attendant walking and fasting and praying (rather than driving most of the distance and munching or sipping on a few goodies here and there)?
I must say this falls on the shoulders of Catholics! I’m pretty sure that if the catholic church properly practiced these things, they would be more widespread in the West than they are now.

Do the other protestants fast regularly? Do they

You have read what I write and turned into something that fits your paradigm and answered it in a way that I do not understand professor.

No one questions the past. You can learn from it. What is relevant is today. Tradition without practice is learning. Tradition with practice is action. Show me some action.

I said the above…There is tradition, no one questions that and then I asked to show me Tradition/action.

You said that there was no tradition of self-denial. Now that I’ve shown you to be wrong, you shift your ground instead of admitting error.

You then say I shift ground, whatever that means to you, and ask me to admit error. Well OK then Pilgrim where is my error that I must admit. Is this how you teach?

You point out the Amish…OK how many of them are there in the world?

You point ot the Cavlinists a dwindling number…?

You point out the Puritans…where are they now…?

Asceticm in Protetant history is history…not to denegrate your notion of living in the world as you say.

Now since no one can provide a Protestant teaching body that serves all of Protestant thought, these are ecclesial communities that are Protestant in nature and there is no practice that is looked on as to be associated with or part of any other ecclesial community. They remain historical and as I said no one denies history. What is sad is that these historical entitities appear to have dwindled as Protestant thought has evolved.

No one denies the past…Today it would be safe to say that as the OP stated…

I must say this falls on the shoulders of Catholics! I’m pretty sure that if the catholic church properly practiced these things, they would be more widespread in the West than they are now.

and as for you, you state

On the whole I prefer the Eastern approach,

I too favor the Eastern approach so it sounds like we have some common ground. As I said I am always up for teaching and learning. Are you of the same mind?

 

[Marie_Gregg]

I was not raised in a home that encouraged fasting, but I have done so for the last three years on Good Friday. I’m embarrassed to admit that I can think of only one other time I have fasted.

The concept frightens me. I like to be in control and, ask I am sick quite often, I hate physical discomfort. I also get anxious about doing it wrong and making God mad.

And…what are the Stations of the Cross?

 

[CopticChristian]

I was not raised in a home that encouraged fasting, but I have done so for the last three years on Good Friday. I’m embarrassed to admit that I can think of only one other time I have fasted.

The concept frightens me. I like to be in control and, ask I am sick quite often, I hate physical discomfort. I also get anxious about doing it wrong and making God mad.

And…what are the Stations of the Cross?

There are articles on fasting that are not religious and they actually point out the physiology of fasting. It may interest you. It does provide you an opportunity to deny the body and enter a spiritual realm. I will see if I can find it somewhere and when I do I will post it…found it…

Fasting: The History, Pathophysiology and Complications
Peter R. Kerndt, MD, James L. Naughton, MD, Charles E. Driscoll, MD, and David A. Loxterkamp, MD
Department of Medicine, University of California, San Francisco
Department of Family Practice, University of Iowa College of Medicine, Iowa City

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1274154/

The stations of the cross are a meditation and devoiton that is done in a group at the Church…I don’t know the best way to explain it. I am sure that someone will find a way to direct you. It is a powerful meditation and devotion.

 

[I_Thirst]

The concept frightens me. I like to be in control and, ask I am sick quite often, I hate physical discomfort. I also get anxious about doing it wrong and making God mad.

Since CopticChristian gave you a good resource on the physical/medical, I’ll recommend something on the spiritual, The Spirituality of Fasting: Rediscovering a Christian Practice.

 

[CopticChristian]

Since CopticChristian gave you a good resource on the physical/medical, I’ll recommend something on the spiritual, The Spirituality of Fasting: Rediscovering a Christian Practice.

I was hoping that this book was online, however I see you have to buy it, I may try getting it from the library. Thank you…

 

[Marybeloved]

I was not raised in a home that encouraged fasting, but I have done so for the last three years on Good Friday. I’m embarrassed to admit that I can think of only one other time I have fasted.

The concept frightens me. I like to be in control and, ask I am sick quite often, I hate physical discomfort. I also get anxious about doing it wrong and making God mad.

And…what are the Stations of the Cross?

Hello, my friend.

The way of the cross is a prayer of the Western side of historic Christianity which developed from pilgrimages to the holy land. The crusaders on reaching Jerusalem recounted Christ’s journey of sorrow on his last day before his crucifixion. The actual path Jesus took is named the “via dolorosa” which is Latin for the “way of sorrow”. Since most people could not make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem to recount the Lord’s steps through his trials and execution, the devotion grew of erecting stations in certain places and in churches to mark 14 crucial moments on the Lord’s sorrowful journey. At some point, a 15th station was added to mark the victory of resurrection. So the prayer is now a total of 15 points of meditation on 15 special moments on the Lord’s journey of sorrow called “the stations of the cross”.

It’s traditionally said on Fridays generally, but particularly on the Fridays of Lent and most especially and certainly most elaborately on Good Friday.

I find it quite tasking as you kneel on each station and rise back up and stand (or walk in addition) throughout the rest of the prayer. That’s 15 times and when done on Good Friday outside the church or at a special place for the stations, it’s a lot of walking, kneeling, rising and recitation and concentration on the Lord’s suffering and great sacrifice.

It’s particularly penitentiary, not to mention very ascetic especially if you consider that on Good Friday and Lenten Fridays one is supposed to be practising some type of fast at the same time. It’s very special.

I hope that helps.

Peace.

 

[CopticChristian]

Here is one area where the East beats the West hands down with a clean Ten-nil defeat! I’m sure that this is just not how I see it. What in God’s name happened? Why are Westerns so oblivious to self denial, That is: Exterior mortification (fasting and physically tasking devotions) and therefore also interior mortification (renunciation of the will etc) because obviously one affects the other .

For example:
How many Catholics, Anglo-cathoics, Evangelical catholics, Lutherans and members of other Western liturgical churches pray the stations of the cross on Fridays, or even during lent?
How many fast, even on Good Friday or Lenten Fridays?
How many perform pilgrimages to Our Lady with the attendant walking and fasting and praying (rather than driving most of the distance and munching or sipping on a few goodies here and there)?

I must say this falls on the shoulders of Catholics! I’m pretty sure that if the catholic church properly practiced these things, they would be more widespread in the West than they are now.

Do the other protestants fast regularly? Do they fast as self-denial and strictly for spiritual growth or just “for a breakthrough” in temporal problems?

Perhaps this failure is part of the reason that such a selfish, individualistic “I deserve” attitude prevails in western culture and is fast spreading everywhere in the whole planet.

I am truly surprised that no one looked at one of the few places where Protestants do exhibit ascetism and mortification. I do not favor Protestant thought in any way. I do not favor propogation of Protestant thought. I honestly have to say that some of the most humble, ascetic, dedicated Western people that have been Baptized and called Christian are missionaries. Protestant missionaries dedicate their lives, their families, to poverty, ascetism and mortification. It is not a glorious life and is probably why it was overlooked.