Western Civilization and Protestants

[gurneyhalleck1]

actually universities go back to non-western antiquity (China, India, and Persia). The University of Constantinople was the earliest western university to have many of the traits we associate with universities today (and it was secular). As a point of reference, the University of Bologna was founded over five centuries later.

Hospitals go back to the ancient Egyptians.

well, German barbarians first, then yes the church.

or burned them alive

some, but in the grand scheme of things more western development was in spite of the Catholic Church rather than because of it.

Some good points here. I concur. The hospitals idea goes back to the Greeks as well. They had temples to Asclepius, the God of Healing. Hippocrates and his contemporaries were into this and the idea that illness comes NOT from supernatural causes or curses, but from physical, scientific means. And universities existed within the Greeks and Romans in a manner of speaking and among Muslims in the Middle East along with the use of algebra, etc. We tend to think everything came from the West that made the West.

We also hear that Catholicism brought us capitalism but with the Catholic Church owning most of Europe’s real estate and running the courts, pulling the strings of monarchs, and having the power to excommunicate anyone on a whim as well as using Peter’s Pence to finance military expeditions and wars between Catholic nations, that muddies the waters of the whole capitalist venture!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think it’s biggest contribution was its monasteries during the dark ages (I guess dark ages isn’t exactly in vogue anymore … but anyways). I think if those monasteries didn’t preserve knowledge, the fall of Rome would have had a more lasting devastating impact on Europe.

Of course there’s good arguments both ways. Certainly the virtual theocracy imposed probably was an obstructive force to economic progress. Yet, I think on balance we can say the CC made some contributions to western civilization (although I also think it’s exaggerated by some Catholics, but that’s natural I guess).

The Catholic Church did indeed preserve the works of antiquity and the ancient world and in an impressive way. What impresses me about the Catholic Church is how they managed to not only preserve the ancient masterpieces, but to embrace some pagan ideas that made sense and that they found fruitful. They embraced Platonic ideas and scholasticism from Aristotle, they loved the poetry of Virgil, and they fell in love with mythology. Unlike radical Islam, that destroys so much of its pagan past, Catholicism protected it as a duty. We would DEFINITELY not have most of these works today were it not for Catholicism. They also protected law and order, brought infrastructure, kept the peace, Christianized Europe (western) and fought off Islam. In addition they were great patrons of the arts and they brought incredible levels of beauty to the people of Europe just in the form of the cathedrals alone. They stepped into the role of parent for the people when the Roman Empire passed away, and they really did a fine job in many ways.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The Catholic Church did indeed preserve the works of antiquity and the ancient world and in an impressive way. What impresses me about the Catholic Church is how they managed to not only preserve the ancient masterpieces, but to embrace some pagan ideas that made sense and that they found fruitful. They embraced Platonic ideas and scholasticism from Aristotle, they loved the poetry of Virgil, and they fell in love with mythology. Unlike radical Islam, that destroys so much of its pagan past, Catholicism protected it as a duty. We would DEFINITELY not have most of these works today were it not for Catholicism. They also protected law and order, brought infrastructure, kept the peace, Christianized Europe (western) and fought off Islam. In addition they were great patrons of the arts and they brought incredible levels of beauty to the people of Europe just in the form of the cathedrals alone. They stepped into the role of parent for the people when the Roman Empire passed away, and they really did a fine job in many ways.

You sum it up pretty nicely. I say.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I guess there’s a reason why a billion people gobble this stuff up huh? Religious indoctrination can be mesmerizing I guess.

Anyway, the early church fathers encountered these same objections; and their rebuttal says it all. Why would the greatest apologists in Christian history say something like these earlier mythologies were some sort of demonic imitation if the case I’m making wasn’t persuasive?

The whole premise of your logic is nonsensical and ignores the implications of the writings of your own church fathers.

Your logic is illogical by making the conclusion that Christianity borrow its beliefs and stories from paganism. There no historical evidence to show that at all, nor archeological evidence.

Justin Martyr didn’t try something like your “fallacies” argument for a reason (and not because he was too stupid to come up with them, indeed Martyr was highly intelligent, I’ve read his letter & they were great pieces of work). He realized those earlier mythological stories were virtually identical to the Jesus narrative (therefore your sort of argument wasn’t reasonably available to him). So he invented a wild theory (even more absurd than your argument, but hey … it worked right). The point is we can gather a lot by Martyr’s choice of rebuttal. If there were only loose similarities (as I guess you imply) that would have been a far easier and much more plausible approach for Martyr (as opposed to the devil back in time theory).

OK … moving on. You copied and pasted these arguments (probably from some apologetics web site, maybe this one) but by reading your words I don’t think you understand this issue, or formal logic very well (and some of your sentences aren’t exactly very intelligible). My advice, keep studying. I remember being an undergraduate and graduate student – I thought I knew it all too

I have studied a lot of Apologetic material from Catholic Answers website. As well as other books written by history professors about Church history and so forth. The conclusion I have is that Christianity origin is Jewish. Jesus is a Jew born in Bethelem. Josephus, and other non Christians historians acknowledge that there a man crucified under Pontius Pilate.

Justin Martyr biography show that his parents were probably pagan, Roman or Greek. It comes to no surprise that there are some similarities. However, he did not go around saying, “Christianity is rich in paganism. So it is borrowed from that idea.” An argument that you claim.

Like I said, the argument, “This is similar to this therefore, so this originated with that”
Any historical or archeological evidence that link Christianity to other pagan religions in the East is fallacies and ridicules argument.

 

[yankee_doodle]

We also hear that Catholicism brought us capitalism but with the Catholic Church owning most of Europe’s real estate and running the courts, pulling the strings of monarchs, and having the power to excommunicate anyone on a whim as well as using Peter’s Pence to finance military expeditions and wars between Catholic nations, that muddies the waters of the whole capitalist venture!

the history of capitalism is pretty muddy, but it’s definitely not a Catholic invention (the Romans, Greeks, and even Egyptians had merchants, traded with other nations, etc.).

When I look at ideas like western civilization or capitalism, I generally look at what we can reasonably trace modern western civilization back to. Trying to trace its roots back before the enlightenment, or guys like Adam Smith, get’s pretty speculative and muddy (a little too speculative for me to have any level of comfort imagining who was responsible for what).

As far as the CC preserving paganism … you say but for the CC we DEFINITELY would have lost any record of paganism. I think that’s a speculative statement. It may be true that they preserved much of pagan history, but frankly it’s also possible that we’ve learned more through archeology than the CC preserved. I’m not saying it’s not possible that if the CC didn’t preserve our pagan past we would have lost any record of it … I’m saying we can’t really know for sure (that’s sort of like Luis Molina’s theory of divine knowledge of counterfactuals, and as far as I know none of us are omniscient beings – in other words we have no way of knowing what could have been, besides maybe some sort of reverse game theory algorithm – but I suspect no one is relying on that kind of quantitative analysis in making these assumptions).

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Your logic is illogical by making the conclusion that Christianity borrow its beliefs and stories from paganism. There no historical evidence to show that at all, nor archeological evidence.

I have studied a lot of Apologetic material from Catholic Answers website. As well as other books written by history professors about Church history and so forth. The conclusion I have is that Christianity origin is Jewish. Jesus is a Jew born in Bethelem. Josephus, and other non Christians historians acknowledge that there a man crucified under Pontius Pilate.

Justin Martyr biography show that his parents were probably pagan, Roman or Greek. It comes to no surprise that there are some similarities. However, he did not go around saying, “Christianity is rich in paganism. So it is borrowed from that idea.” An argument that you claim.

Like I said, the argument, “This is similar to this therefore, so this originated with that”
Any historical or archeological evidence that link Christianity to other pagan religions in the East is fallacies and ridicules argument.

I agree that the whole notion that Catholicism is paganism with Jesus is just lame. It doesn’t hold water. But I will say, and we all know this obviously, that great men like Justin Martyr and Augustine, both converts from paganism, used pagan ideas, pagan philosophical terminology and understandings of the universe and theology, to better understand Christ and His Church as well as the nature of Christ, etc. They used pagan terminology and philosophy to combat heresies and to enrich the Church overall. Augustine used Manichean and Neo-Platonic ideas and terms to argue against the Donatists and Pelagians and to help the Church understand who Christ was. And men like Aquinas used Artistotle to understand sacraments like the Eucharist with transubstantiation. I personally don’t know why some Protestants get so uncomfortable with that term or idea. I think it makes good sense and is a good way to understand the Host. But at the same time making it mandatory as THE understanding of the Eucharist on pain of anathema, that’s another story I guess…

But overall I don’t think the Church was pagan, but pagan ideas and innovations only helped define things and understand things. Not everything the pagans did or said was evil. The Bible tells us that all human beings had that spark of God in them, that the law was written on men’s hearts, and I believe some of God’s truths and genius existed in the pagans as well. But to say Constantine somehow introduced the worship of Roman gods or Isis or Magna Mater into Christianity is hilariously goofy.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

the history of capitalism is pretty muddy, but it’s definitely not a Catholic invention (the Romans, Greeks, and even Egyptians had merchants, traded with other nations, etc.).

When I look at ideas like western civilization or capitalism, I generally look at what we can reasonably trace modern western civilization back to. Trying to trace its roots back before the enlightenment, or guys like Adam Smith, get’s pretty speculative and muddy (a little too speculative for me to have any level of comfort imagining who was responsible for what).

As far as the CC preserving paganism … you say but for the CC we DEFINITELY would have lost any record of paganism. I think that’s a speculative statement. It may be true that they preserved much of pagan history, but frankly it’s also possible that we’ve learned more through archeology than the CC preserved. I’m not saying it’s not possible that if the CC didn’t preserve our pagan past we would have lost any record of it … I’m saying we can’t really know for sure (that’s sort of like Luis Molina’s theory of divine knowledge of counterfactuals, and as far as I know none of us are omniscient beings – in other words we have no way of knowing what could have been, besides maybe some sort of reverse game theory algorithm – but I suspect no one is relying on that kind of quantitative analysis in making these assumptions).

Great post. Good points all…

 

[yankee_doodle]

I agree that the whole notion that Catholicism is paganism with Jesus is just lame. It doesn’t hold water.

You say that – yet Justin Martyr disagreed with you. He knew it held so much water that he was forced to invent a wild theory to rebut it. Basically he thought the devil went back in time and invented these pre-Christian myths, I guess to try and trick us into not believing in Jesus (you gotta admit – that’s pretty ludicrous, although it is sort of funny … I’m imaging a guy with horns sticking out of his head, traveling back in time through a wormhole to invent mythology, pretty wild ).

It’s amazing how incredibly gullible our ancient ancestors were?

 

[josie_L]

So much for the nice old lady routine LOL…Rude reaction? You have a pretty thin skin! Wowzers! I did read it again and I stand by what I said. I have no time for posts that attempt to demonize the U.S. and pick it apart. This country has done a myriad of wonderful things for the world despite its scars and blemishes. If you read the post to which I was replying, you’ll see that slavery and all sorts of social ills were brought up, the KKK, etc. that makes this country look like a bunch of ignorant, backwards hillbillies. I don’t like that and any American shouldn’t like it either. You notice sins of omission in the post to which I was replying, right? Catholics know all about sins of omission. Here’s an example: ABOLITIONISTS. The poster, Josie, whom I like a lot actually, talked about slavery and how the U.S. was one of the only countries that tolerated this garbage, and yet she completely left OUT abolitionists. The North was full of abolitionists dedicated to stopping slavery. And what’s more—they were largely PROTESTANT, many were Anglicans. So tell the complete story. It’s like these folks who try to trash Thomas Jefferson for being a deist or for having intimate relations with slaves. Give me a break. Or they try to claim Lincoln was homosexual, you name it. I just tire of it. So I have nothing here to which I should apologize? Sorry my post rang your chimes but shoot, we get into it a lot heavier in here than that? Come on now! lol

Also, Gurneyhalleck is just a screen name, nickname, comes from the sci-fi movie, “Dune.” No Mister in front necessary…

Gurney, I did not leave anything out as I am well aware that many Protestant Christians fought against slavery, but since we were on the topic of how great the founding fathers were in creating the constitution and declaration because of the religious and civil liberties it endowed it’s citizens, it is hard not to mention slavery (and other issues) as a counterpoint to your argument. God bless.

p.s. And again, gurney I was not “demonizing” America, in fact, with all the things I’ve heard mentioned about the CC on these forums (including funding Communism for the purpose of destroying the Orthodox Church, yes that was actually said here) I would have to pack up and leave CAF as there has been much “demonizing”.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Gurney, I did not leave anything out as I am well aware that many Protestant Christians fought against slavery, but since we were on the topic of how great the founding fathers were in creating the constitution and declaration because of the religious and civil liberties it endowed it’s citizens, it is hard not to mention slavery (and other issues) as a counterpoint to your argument. God bless.

p.s. And again, gurney I was not “demonizing” America, in fact, with all the things I’ve heard mentioned about the CC on these forums (including funding Communism for the purpose of destroying the Orthodox Church, yes that was actually said here) I would have to pack up and leave CAF as there has been much “demonizing”.

Fair enough, Josie. It was my perception at the time and the other poster was giving me a “how dare you!” comment. I was merely stating how I felt at the time. You’re fine with me…you’re also correct about some of the weird and wild anti-Catholic statements in here. They bug me just as much as the often slanted anti-Protestant statements. Have a great evening…or I guess now…uh, morning! lol

 

[Carlan]

So much for the nice old lady routine LOL…Rude reaction? You have a pretty thin skin! Wowzers! I did read it again and I stand by what I said. I have no time for posts that attempt to demonize the U.S. and pick it apart. –

G’morning Gurney, I do hope it is alright to address you so, For some reason I now have the urge to call you teach, perhaps , although I now have a hard time remembering their names and faces, it was because I had two very excellent 6th class teachers

Actually, I just want to say, the nice old lady bit was not a routine, while I do not qualify for bragging rights (only a basic education) I must say experience counts and that simply living life counts most surely for those of us fortunate to reach our 80’s and 90’s in a healthy state. “Thank you Lord”!
Also, I am thankful that you and Josie are working it out for I like Josie very much, she is very good at this, and I enjoy her posts much. And you teach, I like you I can’t boast the same league but you are good:yup: Carlan

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

So much for the nice old lady routine LOL…Rude reaction? You have a pretty thin skin! Wowzers! I did read it again and I stand by what I said. I have no time for posts that attempt to demonize the U.S. and pick it apart. –

G’morning Gurney, I do hope it is alright to address you so, For some reason I now have the urge to call you teach, perhaps , although I now have a hard time remembering their names and faces, it was because I had two very excellent 6th class teachers

Actually, I just want to say, the nice old lady bit was not a routine, while I do not qualify for bragging rights (only a basic education) I must say experience counts and that simply living life counts most surely for those of us fortunate to reach our 80’s and 90’s in a healthy state. “Thank you Lord”!
Also, I am thankful that you and Josie are working it out for I like Josie very much, she is very good at this, and I enjoy her posts much. And you teach, I like you I can’t boast the same league but you are good:yup: Carlan

I appreciate your kind words, Carlan, but I by no means deserve them. I am not in a league above anyone and neither is Josie. We are both just trying to do right by God, do a lot of reading, prayer, and care a lot about the issues. We’re not any brighter or better than anyone else. You are right about wisdom and experience. There are a lot of egg heads out there with ZERO common sense. And yet, on the other hand, I work with a guy who is 60 years old and has taught for 25 years and yet is THE MOST INEPT dufus you’ve ever met in your life! Have mercy on me Lord for this, but the guy is impossible, stubborn, and an all-around goober! He’ll argue over the silliest things and you have to explain things to him over and over and then he yells at YOU for not getting it? We all can’t stand this guy. He’s a prime example of experience not always mattering. But most of the time it does. My dad is a good example. No college but smarter than I am in so many many ways…I’m sure YOU are too! I respect my elders so you’ve gotten my respect already!

 

[Carlan]

My dad is a good example. No college but smarter than I am in so many many ways…I’m sure YOU are too! I respect my elders so you’ve gotten my respect already!

Thank you “Teach”! Carlan

 

[Mannyfit75]

… I’m saying we can’t really know for sure (that’s sort of like Luis Molina’s theory of divine

That is doubt my friend a basic human behavior. You can just make up theories about about Christianity borrowing pagan practices and belief just to discredit Christianity and Christian as whole. I can see why. Christians make up 1 billion of the population and atheists, gnostics, and others make up the minority.

We Christians, Protestants, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox might disagree on many theological issues and beliefs, but I tell you this. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the prophecies of the Old Testament. All the pagan myths and gods don’t exist. Jesus however is a real person who lived over 2,000 yrs ago. Ancient historians acknowledge that he did exist, as well as the testimony of the Apostles. Jesus isn’t something we make up as we go along. He taught things that were unique and different like loving your neighbor, and helping others. He was also God.

As for all the other pagans the preceeded Christianity, they are fictitious characters that don’t exist.

 

[yankee_doodle]

That is doubt my friend a basic human behavior. You can just make up theories about about Christianity borrowing pagan practices and belief just to discredit Christianity and Christian as whole. I can see why. Christians make up 1 billion of the population and atheists, gnostics, and others make up the minority.

actually it wasn’t me who made it up … there’s a whole scholastic field called comparative mythology.

We Christians, Protestants, Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox might disagree on many theological issues and beliefs, but I tell you this. Jesus Christ fulfilled all the prophecies of the Old Testament. All the pagan myths and gods don’t exist. Jesus however is a real person who lived over 2,000 yrs ago. Ancient historians acknowledge that he did exist, as well as the testimony of the Apostles. Jesus isn’t something we make up as we go along. He taught things that were unique and different like loving your neighbor, and helping others. He was also God.

As for all the other pagans the preceeded Christianity, they are fictitious characters that don’t exist.

That’s a logical fallacy called the consensus gentium fallacy

 

[Sword_Brethren]

. You might also read about how Protestantism led to the rise of nation-states in which we now live, you and I included. I.

Do you mean nationalism?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Do you mean nationalism?

yep

 

[Mannyfit75]

That’s a logical fallacy called the consensus gentium fallacy

It is more credible than your fallacies argument that Christianity borrowed its beliefs from paganism.

 

[yankee_doodle]

It is more credible than your fallacies argument that Christianity borrowed its beliefs from paganism.

I think you mean fallacious argument, but my view that there’s some connection between Christianity and earlier mythology is a theory.

It’s unusual to call a theory fallacious (as you’re doing here), rather it’s more typical to attack the justifications for the theory (or the proposed evidence). So it’s not fallacious to opine there’s a reasonable likelihood Christianity borrowed some themes from earlier mythology.

There’s a bunch of theories flying around in this regard. Some make sense, others don’t. I heard one theory that posits a connection between Homers Odessy and the book of Mark (which is now believed to be the first synoptic gospel written). I’m not sure such a proximate nexus is supportable, however, I also think the many parallels that do exist are too striking to ignore (particularly considering the fact that these myths rose out of the same culture as Christianity). Is it unreasonable to compare the myth of Odysseus to Jesus? I don’t think it’s any less credible than drawing a comparison between Odin and Gandalf. When you have numerous parallels between different mythological stories, which both arose from the same culture (or neighboring cultures) it’s natural and perfectly logical to think there might be a connection.

It’s not just these sort of parallels that make me question religion. I’ll give an example. I just watched a History Channel show where there were these guys who believe UFO’s visited our ancient ancestors. As ridiculous as this might sound, these guys were serious, and had respectible qualifications. They made a bunch of great points, yet they couldn’t overcome one question I had in my mind. If UFO’s habitually commuted back and forth from their home planet to earth in ancient times, where are they now? What made them stop visiting?

Doesn’t the same question exist with regards to religion and god? Where is god now? Why did he stop visiting? The only god sightings we get today aren’t anymore credible than UFO sitings (apparitions on the tree in the yard sort of thing). We have reports of miracles, but there’s not a shred of evidence available for scientific evaluation.

There’s a methodology when you look at circumstantial evidence concerning anything. One coincidence or paradoxal fact, fine. Two, less likely, but maybe. Three, you’re beginning to enter the area of statistical improbability. Eventually, you reach a place where it’s simply not reasonable to believe a certain thing.

 

[Mannyfit75]

think you mean fallacious argument, but my view that there’s some connection between Christianity and earlier mythology is a theory.

That is exactly it, a theory that bears no truth at all, and yes, I meant to say fallacious argument.

I read an article once from one critic of Zeitgeists, the movie about, Conspiracy theories. In that movie it claimed some pagan myths is one of the factors of Christianity.

Yeah, I pull this from wiki, but it is interested to note that Chris Forbes made comment about the film. Chris heavily bashed Part I of the Zeigiest, the Movie, title “The Greatest Story Every told,” which happens to make the claim of that Christianity derives from other religions (which you apparently believed).

The article reads as the following:

Senior lecturer in Ancient History Chris Forbes of Macquarie University has severely criticized Part I of the movie as having no basis in serious scholarship or ancient sources, relying on amateur sources that “borrow ideas from each other, and who recycle the same silly stuff” and “not a single serious source” can be found in official reference lists attached to the movie.

He notes that Ra, not Horus, is the Egyptian sun god, and that there is no evidence in Egyptian sources saying that Horus’ mother Isis was a virgin. Similarly, neither Krishna (the eighth son), Dionysus (whose mother had slept with Zeus) nor Attis were ever supposed born of virgins. He points out that the pun between “son” and “sun” does not work in either Latin, Ancient Egyptian, or Greek, and that the December 25 birth is not part of any of the myths—including that of Jesus, for whom Christmas Day was appointed as a festival day in open knowledge that the real date was not known. He also criticizes the movie’s use of Roman sources to suggest that Jesus didn’t exist, noting that a long list flashed across the screen of supposed contemporary historians that did not mention Jesus is actually comprised of geographers, gardening writers, poets and philosophers, who should not be expected to mention him. The allegation that Josephus’ mention of Jesus was added later is criticized as misleading. Josephus actually mentions Jesus twice, with only one reference believed by scholars to have been doctored in the Middle Ages but to change an already existing mention of him. He also argues that the film misrepresents Constantine when it presents him as making Christianity compulsory (when he only legalized it) and inventing the historical Jesus (when early church records show that the historicity of Jesus had been a key element of faith from early on). Of the film he says “It is extraordinary how many claims it makes which are simply not true.”

As for as UFOs, that you states, I doubt they exist. I don’t doubt that there is a possible of life other planets than earth in the universe. Oddly, many scientists presumed their are other life forms out there but there is no proof that other planets have life, yet they can conclude, that if conditions are right, life could exist in the most primitive conditions.

There have been reports of miracles. Some could be fake; some could be supernatural in origins. The scientific studies done on miracles of Fatima, as well as other approved apparitions prove that it can happen, and these are well documented, or how about those so called reports of ghost reported by some folks. Frankly, I do not care if you do not believe in religion.

It is just that you are trying to preach to us Christians that what we believe is false. Perhaps, you are trying to convert us to your "non-belief in nothing.