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Thrawn
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Sorry for posting this in the Eastern Rite Catholics section but I couldn’t find anywhere more appropriate. Are there any Western Rite Catholics such as Anglo-Catholics?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
No. The only Western Rite is the Roman Church. All others are sub-rites of the Roman Rite such as the Mozarabic and Ambrosian.
For Anglicans who come into Communion with Rome, there is what is called the Anglican Use Mass, but its considered a different Use of the same Roman Missal, thus not a separate Rite.
So the Roman Missal in itself has 3 popular uses
For Anglicans who come into Communion with Rome, there is what is called the Anglican Use Mass, but its considered a different Use of the same Roman Missal, thus not a separate Rite.
So the Roman Missal in itself has 3 popular uses
- The Ordinary Form or the Mass of Pope Paul VI
- The Extraordinary Form of the Tridentine Mass or Traditional Latin Mass
- The Anglican Use Mass
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malphono
Guest
That is incorrect. Yes, the Roman Church is the Western Church, and while the Roman Rite is by far the largest and most widespread, the Western Church comprises more than simply one Rite. The Ambrosian & Mozarabic Rites, e.g., have their own venerable and ancient traditions, and while they are part of the patrimony of the Western (Roman) Church, they are most definitely NOT “sub-rites” of the Roman.
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ConstantineTG
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They have always been categorized under the Roman Rite. Just google and you will see. I don’t know if it was different in the past but there isn’t a reference out there today that would say otherwise.
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malphono
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It’s not a matter of past or present. They are, as I said, part of the Roman Church, but they are distinct Rites within it. They are NOT part of the Roman Rite.
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Let me make sure I’ve got this straight. The Mozarabic rite, for instance, is a separate rite, but Mozarabic-rite Catholics are just as much Latin Catholics - i.e. part of the Latin ritual church - as Roman Catholics. Right?
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malphono
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Yes, that’s it.
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ConstantineTG
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Then how come there’s alway only 6 Cathoilc Rites listed, and they are not one of those six?
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Constantine, I think the answer lies in the difference between a church and a rite. My understanding is that a rite is a particular way of celebrating the Sacraments - especially the Liturgy - while a ritual church is hierarchically distinct (but in union with the bishop of Rome, of course).
So Roman-rite Catholics and Mozarabic-rite Catholics, for instance, are both part of the Latin (western) church. Absolutely.
But the Roman rite is separate from the Mozarabic rite.
What 6 rites are you talking about? I was under the impression that there are around 22 different rites in the Catholic Church.
One of the things that makes this confusing is that in the west, a “rite” is more specific than a “church” since the Latin Church contains several rites. In the eastern rites and churches, however, “church” is more specific, since many Eastern Catholic churches use the same rite - the Byzantine, for instance.
So Roman-rite Catholics and Mozarabic-rite Catholics, for instance, are both part of the Latin (western) church. Absolutely.
But the Roman rite is separate from the Mozarabic rite.
What 6 rites are you talking about? I was under the impression that there are around 22 different rites in the Catholic Church.
One of the things that makes this confusing is that in the west, a “rite” is more specific than a “church” since the Latin Church contains several rites. In the eastern rites and churches, however, “church” is more specific, since many Eastern Catholic churches use the same rite - the Byzantine, for instance.
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Aramis
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That’s a heritage of the church’s (recently corrected) misuse of the term Rite for Ritual Church.
There’s One Western Ritual Church, aka Church Sui Iuris.
It comprises at least 10 distinct missals, not counting several fallen from use; some of them are Roman derivatives with parallel development (like the Anglican Use), but they are distinct missals, not variations of the Roman Missal. Only one is actually “just a variation” on the Roman: the Dalmatian. (Which is literally just the Roman in Church Slavonic.)
The Dominican essentially freezes one particular local use of the Roman missal circa 1200… only adding the new saints.
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ConstantineTG
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Mind you that the 6 Rites are Rites. Under the Byantine Rite for example are 13 Churches. I am fully aware of the difference between Rites and Churches.
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malphono
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Yes, you’ve got it right.
It’s 22 Churches divided among 6 “families” so-to-speak: Roman (i.e. Western), Alexandrene, Antiochene, Armenian, Constantinopolitan, and Chaldean (Eddesan). The Ambrosian Rite, e.g., is part of the the Western in exactly the same way the Ethiopian is part of the Alexandrene, or the Maronite part of the Antiochene, or the Syro-Malabar part of the Chaldean. Each comprises a distinct Rite within its respective family.
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Fone_Bone_2001
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That makes sense. Thanks for explaining.
Great. So what’s your issue with malphono’s point, then?
I assumed that the difference between rites and churches wasn’t clear to you, since you did, after all, say, “The only Western Rite is the Roman Church.”
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Fone_Bone_2001
Guest
Ah, okay. Thanks for the explanation.
Is this
a good source, do you think?
I learned about all this from two sources, basically: doing the International Awareness program for Catholics in Boy Scouts like eight years ago, and the above document. But even with those two, I was confused for a long time about rites vs. churches. Then I would use the term “particular church” when I really meant “ritual church.” I’m always still learning.
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ConstantineTG
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He’s the one who took issue with my point. As you see with his last post, that is the same thing I said (same point, different words). I don’t know what is it with this constant “you’re wrong Constantine” thing only to come up with the same point in the end
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Vico
Guest
The 1991 CCEO eastern canon law refers to rite, tradition, and Church sui iuris (a.k.a ritual church in the 1983 CIC):
intratext.com/X/ENG1199.HTM
CCEO Canon 27
A group of Christian faithful united by a hierarchy according to the norm of law which the supreme authority of the Church expressly or tacitly recognizes as sui iuris is called in this Code a Church sui iuris.
CCEO Canon 28
§1 Through the reception of baptism a child becomes a member of the latin Church if the parents belong to that Church or, should one of them not belong to it, if they have both by common consent chosen that the child be baptised in the latin Church: if that common consent is lacking, the child becomes a member of the ritual Church to which the father belongs.
intratext.com/X/ENG1199.HTM
CCEO Canon 27
A group of Christian faithful united by a hierarchy according to the norm of law which the supreme authority of the Church expressly or tacitly recognizes as sui iuris is called in this Code a Church sui iuris.
CCEO Canon 28
- A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris.
- The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are those which arise from the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.
§1 Through the reception of baptism a child becomes a member of the latin Church if the parents belong to that Church or, should one of them not belong to it, if they have both by common consent chosen that the child be baptised in the latin Church: if that common consent is lacking, the child becomes a member of the ritual Church to which the father belongs.
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Aramis
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And three major traditions within the Byzantine Rite. (Syro-Byzantine/Melkite, Greco-byzantine, and Slavic-byzantine/Byzantine-Slavonic)
And amongst the Slavic-Byzantines, there are at least 3 recensions: Ruthenian/Kyivan, Nikonian-Russian, and Pre-Nikonian Russian (Orthodoxy only, AFAIK).
And the Ruthenian Recension has two churches sui iuris: The UGCC and Ruthenian.
And the Ruthenian Church has two branches, the European and the American… As we tunnel down, we discover the
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ConstantineTG
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Obviously I’m only arguing about the top-level categories of Rites. Then again what you have listed are not the Rites but recensions, sub-rites, or whatever else one might call them. But I was clear when I said “6 Rites” which level I am referring to.
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
The term “Anglo-Catholic” is most commonly used by Anglicans. Sometimes they use the alternative term “High Church”. They consider themselves catholic. Their liturgy is very catholic and from the few Anglo-Catholic “masses” I’ve attended they’re more Catholic in their liturgy than Catholics often are. They use the full scope of bells and smells, show appropriate reverence to the Eucharist, and often have very good music.
However, they are still Anglicans not Latin (Roman) Catholics. They are the Anglicans who are most likely to become part of the Latin (Roman) Catholic Church in the personal ordinariates that are being established. They will be allowed to continue to use a similar liturgy to what they use now although the Holy See will first need to approve it and ensure that it conforms to Latin (Roman) Catholic doctrine/theology.
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Fone_Bone_2001
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Ah, I see.He’s the one who took issue with my point. As you see with his last post, that is the same thing I said (same point, different words). I don’t know what is it with this constant “you’re wrong Constantine” thing only to come up with the same point in the end
I think he was just being really specific. Of course the Ambrosian and Mozarabic rites are part of the same Roman church that Roman-rite Catholics are. He just wanted to avoid the impression that they’re just different versions of the same rite. But yeah, even those rites are, of course, part of the same Roman “family.”
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