Western Rite Orthodox

[FabiusMaximus]

Just a question for the Orthodox:

What do you think of the Western Rite? Is it a good temporary way to allow Western Christians to adapt to Eastern Orthodoxy? Is it a valid part of Orthodoxy? Or do you think it should be entirely done away with?

I’ve never really heard positive things about it. An Orthodox priest I know spoke of how it “creeped him out” and how he felt it was “entirely unOrthodox.” But I don’t really understand why that is, as long as theologically they conform to the Orthodox Church.

 

[BVMFatima]

It is basically the Orthodox version of the Latin Catholic Church in my opinion, but I will let others answer because I am also curious.

God Bless

 

[runningdude]

Many Orthodox feel deeply hurt by the existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches because they seem to encroach upon Orthodox spirituality and jurisdiction. I’d image many also feel uncomfortable in “returning the favor”, so to speak, by creating an Eastern Orthodox Church that encroaches upon Western spirituality.

 

[jwinch2]

antiochian.org/western-rite
westernorthodox.com/home
rwrv.org/

Some websites which have good resources on the subject at hand.

Peace of Christ,

 

[Schism_hater]

Just a question for the Orthodox:

What do you think of the Western Rite? Is it a good temporary way to allow Western Christians to adapt to Eastern Orthodoxy? Is it a valid part of Orthodoxy? Or do you think it should be entirely done away with?

I’ve never really heard positive things about it. An Orthodox priest I know spoke of how it “creeped him out” and how he felt it was “entirely unOrthodox.” But I don’t really understand why that is, as long as theologically they conform to the Orthodox Church.

I think it’s a valid Orthodox rite. Orthodoxy was alive in well even in western Europe for several centuries before the schism. The only thing that would make it unOrthodox would be if they said the Creed with the “Filioque” addition, and they don’t do that.

 

[andrewstx]

I think the Orthodox western rite is similar to the Catholic
Anglican rite.

Both are small, and both use adaptations of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I haven’t experienced a western rite church myself, but in theory I like the concept. Especially in making the Liturgy in more english.

 

[Elizium23]

I haven’t experienced a western rite church myself, but in theory I like the concept. Especially in making the Liturgy in more english.

Isn’t it a common tradition of the Byzantine Rite to worship in the vernacular anyway? What is the history of Byzantine worship in English?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Isn’t it a common tradition of the Byzantine Rite to worship in the vernacular anyway? What is the history of Byzantine worship in English?

Some parishes in the US and Canada will do the entire liturgy in English, while others might do a mixture of English with some native tongue of the community (Arabic, Greek, Russian, etc.) It is possible now to do the entire liturgical cycle in English, thanks to a great abundance of translations from different sources.

From the perspective of a chanter, there are some practical considerations, which makes it easier for some Orthodox traditions to adapt to English than others. The Greeks probably have the hardest time adapting to English for several reasons. One is that there are certain hymns called prosomoia, which are written to the meter of another hymn, and also sung to the melody of that hymn. Unfortunately, most translations of the hymnology of the Orthodox Church were produced without keeping this in mind, and so in order to sing these prosomoia, it becomes necessary to make a melody up for each one, at which point they cease being prosomoia. Another problem is that another class of hymns called idiomela (which have unique melodies), simply do not have composed music yet.

The Antiochians tend to use a lot of English, if not to do their services almost exclusively in English. They run into the same problems as the Greeks as mentioned above (this is because the style of chant used by the Antiochians is so-called “byzantine chant,” the same style as the Greeks), but they are less shy about improvising melodies, to the point where you’ll hear services where a majority of the music improvised. This can be quite effective with experienced chanters who know by heart the melodic formulae used in chant, but in typical Antiochian parish practice, improvising everything sounds rather mediocre (not bad, just not so great).

Those who follow the Russian tradition probably have the easiest time, since Kievan chant melodies are easily adaptable to English (or really any language). All one has to know is on what words notes will change, and the generic melody for the specific tone and genre of hymn. The downside to this is that other styles of chant used in the Russian tradition get pushed out, such that a majority of the service is done in Kievan chant, and a very small amount if any will use Znamenny.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Just a question for the Orthodox:

What do you think of the Western Rite? Is it a good temporary way to allow Western Christians to adapt to Eastern Orthodoxy? Is it a valid part of Orthodoxy? Or do you think it should be entirely done away with?

I’ve never really heard positive things about it. An Orthodox priest I know spoke of how it “creeped him out” and how he felt it was “entirely unOrthodox.” But I don’t really understand why that is, as long as theologically they conform to the Orthodox Church.

The Western rite is a valid part of Orthodoxy. The only major objection that I have to the Western rite is that it makes concelebration difficult if not impossible. Recently, we had the Metropolitan in town, and about 20 priests from around the city (and even across jurisdictional lines, such that we had Greeks, Antiochians, and ROCOR all present) were present for vespers that evening. Unfortunately, we had two priests who wound up just sitting around behind the iconostasis, because they were Western Rite priests, and had no idea what to do when doing vespers with a bishop using the Constantinopolitan Rite. That is obviously not ideal, and I think that the place of the Western Rite in the greater context of Orthodox worship and practice needs to be thought out a bit more.

 

[jwinch2]

The Western rite is a valid part of Orthodoxy. The only major objection that I have to the Western rite is that it makes concelebration difficult if not impossible. Recently, we had the Metropolitan in town, and about 20 priests from around the city (and even across jurisdictional lines, such that we had Greeks, Antiochians, and ROCOR all present) were present for vespers that evening. Unfortunately, we had two priests who wound up just sitting around behind the iconostasis, because they were Western Rite priests, and had no idea what to do when doing vespers with a bishop using the Constantinopolitan Rite. That is obviously not ideal, and I think that the place of the Western Rite in the greater context of Orthodox worship and practice needs to be thought out a bit more.

Interesting observations. I had not heard that particular issue mentioned previously. I would suspect that could be handled by ongoing formation, which I readily agree is easier said then done at times.

Peace.

 

[andrewstx]

I go to an Antiochian church in Midland 35 miles away. The only western rite OC I have personal knowledge of was in Abilene and now they have gone Byzantine.

The Midland church has services in English except for “Christos Annestie” and the Arabic equivalent. Other than two arab families and one Ukranian family the parish is made of converts from Lutheran to church of Christ to Catholic.

West Texas is not a good place to be Orthodox since we are heavily dominated by Baptists and “non denominational” denominations.

I really prefer OCA and they had a mission here that was closed. In westexass you have to take Orthodoxy where you can find it and you can’t be picky about jurisdiction. The next closest Orthodox church is 135 miles distant in Lubbock.

 

[jwinch2]

I go to an Antiochian church in Midland 35 miles away. The only western rite OC I have personal knowledge of was in Abilene and now they have gone Byzantine.

The Midland church has services in English except for “Christos Annestie” and the Arabic equivalent. Other than two arab families and one Ukranian family the parish is made of converts from Lutheran to church of Christ to Catholic.

West Texas is not a good place to be Orthodox since we are heavily dominated by Baptists and “non denominational” denominations.

I really prefer OCA and they had a mission here that was closed. In westexass you have to take Orthodoxy where you can find it and you can’t be picky about jurisdiction. The next closest Orthodox church is 135 miles distant in Lubbock.

Surprisingly, there are two Orthodox parishes in Wichita Falls, but that is obviously a ways from where you are. One of them is in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate, and the other is Greek Orthodox.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

The Western rite is a valid part of Orthodoxy. The only major objection that I have to the Western rite is that it makes concelebration difficult if not impossible. Recently, we had the Metropolitan in town, and about 20 priests from around the city (and even across jurisdictional lines, such that we had Greeks, Antiochians, and ROCOR all present) were present for vespers that evening. Unfortunately, we had two priests who wound up just sitting around behind the iconostasis, because they were Western Rite priests, and had no idea what to do when doing vespers with a bishop using the Constantinopolitan Rite. That is obviously not ideal, and I think that the place of the Western Rite in the greater context of Orthodox worship and practice needs to be thought out a bit more.

Do you think that perhaps that might be because Western Rite Orthodoxy is still fairly new? Perhaps that “logistical issue” might be rectified in the future?

Also, do you think that Western Rite Orthodox are sometimes looked down upon by other Eastern Orthodox?

The Antiochians tend to use a lot of English, if not to do their services almost exclusively in English. They run into the same problems as the Greeks as mentioned above (this is because the style of chant used by the Antiochians is so-called “byzantine chant,” the same style as the Greeks), but they are less shy about improvising melodies, to the point where you’ll hear services where a majority of the music improvised. This can be quite effective with experienced chanters who know by heart the melodic formulae used in chant, but in typical Antiochian parish practice, improvising everything sounds rather mediocre (not bad, just not so great).

A beautiful tradition indeed. I am enamored by that chant.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Isn’t it a common tradition of the Byzantine Rite to worship in the vernacular anyway? What is the history of Byzantine worship in English?

By Byzantine you mean greek orthodox churches? I cannot speak for all churches, my church tends to have a mix of english and Greek, more greek than english but I can understand the liturgy with a book though.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Do you think that perhaps that might be because Western Rite Orthodoxy is still fairly new? Perhaps that “logistical issue” might be rectified in the future?

Yes, most definitely. Currently, the big problem with the Western Rite is not only that priests who use the Western Rite are often not familiar with the Constantinoplitan Rite, but that (and here’s the kicker) their bishops are probably not familiar with the Western Rite either. Of bishops in North America, I can count on one hand those who are known to be familiar enough with the Western Rite to celebrate it. The Roman Catholic solution to this would be to establish overlapping hierarchies, which could then minister to each type of ritual/ethnic community. This is obviously the opposite of what the Orthodox want (that is, we regard the overlapping hierarchies in America to be a canonical aberration to be fixed), and is not really a viable solution. True, we could get around this through a creative use of auxiliary bishops and vicariates, but on one hand, this seems like a different way of perpetuating the same problem, while on the other hand, this runs the danger of making the Western Rite into some sort of ritual ghetto, since the presence of an auxiliary bishop dedicated to the Western Rite removes that responsibility from the ordinary bishop. I really have no good answers to how these problems can be rectified (it’s above my pay-grade), but I wonder if there might not be some historical precedents which might not be helpful to investigate (this is especially true of when Orthodoxy was less ritually homogeneous).

Also, do you think that Western Rite Orthodox are sometimes looked down upon by other Eastern Orthodox?

Yes, this unfortunately is the case.

A beautiful tradition indeed. I am enamored by that chant.

As am I. I wish we would do more of our services in chant, and do away with our polyphonic choir, but then that’s some seriously wishful thinking.

 

[Rawb]

My wife was Chrismated in the Western Rite, and we’ve visited her old parish several times. Very welcoming priest, who grew up Roman Catholic. We had an interesting discussion once about how a lot of Cradle Orthodox assume that, were they to go to the average Roman Catholic parish, it would look a lot like a Western Orthodox Mass, or very similar to the Tridentine-ish practices depicted on TV.

I love Western Orthodoxy, but it needs to rediscover more of its roots still, IMO. It needs more culturally unifying traditions within the Rite, and I still wish they’d get rid of those awful organs. Then again, my biggest beef with the West in total is the vapidity of rhyming hymns - they should get rid of those too IMO lol. They need to rediscover the plethora of services, and practice them.

But these opinions make them no less Orthodox, and the services ‘feel’ Orthodox to me when I go. The problems with concelebration need to be worked out, and we need bishops who respect and understand their Western parishes, but I fervently hope that Western Orthodoxy expands and grows and becomes as common as Eastern in the US. I have many friends within The Church who agree, several of whom hope to go into the priesthood.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Yes, most definitely. Currently, the big problem with the Western Rite is not only that priests who use the Western Rite are often not familiar with the Constantinoplitan Rite, but that (and here’s the kicker) their bishops are probably not familiar with the Western Rite either. Of bishops in North America, I can count on one hand those who are known to be familiar enough with the Western Rite to celebrate it. The Roman Catholic solution to this would be to establish overlapping hierarchies, which could then minister to each type of ritual/ethnic community. This is obviously the opposite of what the Orthodox want (that is, we regard the overlapping hierarchies in America to be a canonical aberration to be fixed), and is not really a viable solution. True, we could get around this through a creative use of auxiliary bishops and vicariates, but on one hand, this seems like a different way of perpetuating the same problem, while on the other hand, this runs the danger of making the Western Rite into some sort of ritual ghetto, since the presence of an auxiliary bishop dedicated to the Western Rite removes that responsibility from the ordinary bishop. I really have no good answers to how these problems can be rectified (it’s above my pay-grade), but I wonder if there might not be some historical precedents which might not be helpful to investigate (this is especially true of when Orthodoxy was less ritually homogeneous).

Well Western Rite Orthodoxy technically is a revival of Orthodoxy that existed in the West before the schism, correct? Was there never a case where an “Eastern” style parish existed in the West and a “Western” parish existed in the East? Perhaps from there there can be gleamed a solution?

Additionally, who would hold “jurisdiction” over the Western Rite? Would each national Church have its own “version” (for lack of a better word)? Or is it entirely autonomous on the level of the national churches?

As am I. I wish we would do more of our services in chant, and do away with our polyphonic choir, but then that’s some seriously wishful thinking.

Me too, though I don’t mind it. But I geeked out on YouTube the past couple days and listened to an entire Antiochian liturgy with a beautiful chant. It was spectacular. I find the Eastern Orthodox experience in general to be phenomenal, quite like the Solemn High Mass in Catholicism. I don’t see much of that around either, alas!

 

[Cavaradossi]

Well Western Rite Orthodoxy technically is a revival of Orthodoxy that existed in the West before the schism, correct? Was there never a case where an “Eastern” style parish existed in the West and a “Western” parish existed in the East? Perhaps from there there can be gleamed a solution?

Yes, there were definitely Western Rite parishes in Constantinople and Eastern Rite parishes in Southern Italy at the time of the schism. This overlap contributed significantly to the mutual anathemas of 1054, as in the buildup to the excommunications, the Latins in the West began disseminating Anti-greek rite propaganda in Southern Italy (at that time, largely Greek-speaking). Michael Cerularius responded by ordering all Latin rite parishes in Constantinople to be closed.

Additionally, who would hold “jurisdiction” over the Western Rite? Would each national Church have its own “version” (for lack of a better word)? Or is it entirely autonomous on the level of the national churches?

Herein lies the real problem. The Western Rites historically had Western bishops attached to them, a sort of home turf, so to speak. This is, of course, no longer the case. That is why the Western Rite in Orthodox practice currently seems somewhat forced. The original intent was for the Western Rite to be used by Anglicans (in the case of an ecclesial union), but since this never happened, we now strangely have a Western Rite (this term is broad of course, since some Western Rite parishes base their liturgy on the Tridentine Mass, while others base their liturgy on the Book of Common Prayer) without any bishops attached to it. ROCOR has recently established a bishop as a Vicar of the Western Rite or something like that, which may be a good start. I think eventually, we will have to establish some dioceses where the Western Rite is considered normative, such that any candidate for the episcopacy of such a diocese should be able to celebrate both rites, thus giving the Western Rite a ‘home’ of sorts. It doesn’t solve the logistical problem of what to do with Western Rite priests under bishops who do not know the Western Rite, but at least it would be a start.

Me too, though I don’t mind it. But I geeked out on YouTube the past couple days and listened to an entire Antiochian liturgy with a beautiful chant. It was spectacular. I find the Eastern Orthodox experience in general to be phenomenal, quite like the Solemn High Mass in Catholicism. I don’t see much of that around either, alas!

During the Summer, our choir goes on break (this is common in the GOA, and though I am grateful for it, it’s technically not supposed to happen), and our services switch to being fully chanted. I wish it could be that way year-round.

 

[Peter_J]

West Texas is not a good place to be Orthodox since we are heavily dominated by Baptists and “non denominational” denominations.

Not to be confused with West, Texas, which I never heard of until it was in the news recently.