Western Rite Orthodoxy, what do you think?
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gohjedrek
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I am not eastern orthodox, but the rite is almost identical to the Anglican Use rite that I attend. The prayers before the eucharist are slightly different, but the participation of the lay in singing the hymns actively and the kneeling down and raising up during the profession of faith are similar to the Anglican Use. And with the mass done in the vernacular, I would say there is about a 95% similarity. We also have icons, but usually 1 to 2 and not as many as the western rite orthodox church.
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Yes they are very similar, I attended the first mass the bishop done (as bishop) at our lady of walsingham in Houston a couple of years back, it was beautiful.
Also the Anglican Use of the Roman Rite is my wife’s personal favorite Liturgy (it is my favorite of the Roman tradition, but my favorite liturgy overall is the Divine Liturgy St. John Chrysostom and the Byzantine Traditions in general).
Also the Anglican Use of the Roman Rite is my wife’s personal favorite Liturgy (it is my favorite of the Roman tradition, but my favorite liturgy overall is the Divine Liturgy St. John Chrysostom and the Byzantine Traditions in general).
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TomH1
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I do believe several Eastern Orthodox churches have, in the West, authorised what is called the Western Rite. It is, I understand, based primarily on the liturgy found in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer with theological corrections so that it conforms with Eastern orthodox theology. For example, the filioque is removed from the Nicene Creed and there is a greater emphasis on the Epiclesis in the Eucharistic Prayer.
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George720
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Well, finally, we have an American Orthodox original music Divine Liturgy done in the great Cathedral of the Orthodox Church in America in Washington, DC… This is an exceptionally lovely and original liturgical work of the entire Divine Liturgy in a hierarchical setting…
The Cherubic Hymn and the Great Entrance:
And the Troparia, Holy God, and Prokeimenon:
(Same Service, I believe)
A distinctly American musical sound, and totally Orthodox at the same time, and having deep roots in the Russian Orthodox musical tradition… A lovely sound indeed, and a big step, I should think, toward the establishment of the American Orthodox Church…
geo
The Cherubic Hymn and the Great Entrance:
And the Troparia, Holy God, and Prokeimenon:
(Same Service, I believe)
A distinctly American musical sound, and totally Orthodox at the same time, and having deep roots in the Russian Orthodox musical tradition… A lovely sound indeed, and a big step, I should think, toward the establishment of the American Orthodox Church…
geo
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PilgrimMichelangelo
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As much as it pains me, as I am a great lover of all things Western, especially liturgy, the consensus is that it is A.) Suspicious (papal plots for takeover, anyone?) B.) Byzantinized and Russified C.) It replaces important distinctions unique to the Latin Rite with Byzantine interpolations D.) It confuses the faithful, who mostly confuse “Orthodox” with “Eastern” and “Western” with “Catholic” E.) “It will probably die on the vine” because having a blessing to be bi-ritual is reserved only to the ROCOR-WR, and there is no concelebration in WR F.) It is a unity of High Church Anglican and Roman Liturgy or in a few parishes a Neo-Gallican (St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco’s version approved line-by-line by himself), which causes confusion and division not only among the Eastern Rite but also among WR Orthodox.
On a personal note, as much as I wanted this to be successful for a little while, I see now if I want real/authentic Western Rite “orthodoxy” my head and heart would only accept it the Roman Catholic Church at a traditional Latin Mass or Anglican Ordinariate. There are just too many Byzantinizations to the rite for me to accept.
On a personal note, as much as I wanted this to be successful for a little while, I see now if I want real/authentic Western Rite “orthodoxy” my head and heart would only accept it the Roman Catholic Church at a traditional Latin Mass or Anglican Ordinariate. There are just too many Byzantinizations to the rite for me to accept.
Thanks for the response, from the video I watched online I found it to be very beautiful.
I would hope that it would lead to further Unify East and West, you know, help to bridge the gap.
On a sidenote I really love the idea of the high altar with the icons as pictured above, this is something I can totally get on board with for all Western Christianity (maybe that is my love of everything Byzantine talking).
I would hope that it would lead to further Unify East and West, you know, help to bridge the gap.
This doesn’t give one much hope, But I pray that it bears good fruit and further helps to unify the Eastern and Western churches.
While I do find much beauty in western liturgy when done reverently, I find myself totally in love with the Byzantine traditions (go figure).
On a sidenote I really love the idea of the high altar with the icons as pictured above, this is something I can totally get on board with for all Western Christianity (maybe that is my love of everything Byzantine talking).
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OrbisNonSufficit
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While that may be true as it brings West to East, it is heavily Hellenized. It is same as when Latin Church forced it’s practices upon Eastern Catholic Churches- it does rob them of their identity. For example, I really like singing Filioque Nicene Creed in Byzantine Divine Liturgy (simply because tune is great and it fits there)… but it is a Latinization which Orthodox would not like.
I actually think so too… but synergism of Rites has been kinda abolished to protect their “integrity”. I hope one day Rites will again start to mutually enrich each other, and Icons above High Altar will be present in Latin Rite too. After all, taking practice from another Rite was prevalent in Early Church- though when someone tried to force others to do it (Quinisext Council), it was despised by Church at large. Returning to that time would be nice, but for that we need to educate people about Eastern Catholics and make sure we only accept Eastern traditions into Latin Church if they were desired by Latins… doing it unnaturally is never the answer.
I do too. Attending Byzantine Divine Liturgy made me not only appreciate universality of Church, but also my own Latin Rite. I started researching our traditions too and started living more spiritually. I am still Latin in my mindset (I need definitions, and while I like mystery I like it because I can speculate on it, and I am very much into post-Schism Latin theology too), but that does not mean I can’t attend Byzantine Divine Liturgy often or partake in gifts we are offered by it’s celebration.
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JOHNHUS1966
Guest
The same as Eastern Orthodox only trying to be more westernized basically like old Catholics and Anglican only with the icons not statutes
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PilgrimMichelangelo
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There are many examples of the West having beautiful iconography all over Latin Rite churches.
Here is an example of a Byzantinesque Altar Screen which stands above the High Altar in the (RC) Basilica in Santa Fe.
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I was under the impression that Western Rite Orthodox use statues along with icons, is that not correct?
Please do post any more examples you have, also I drive through Santa Fe every once in a while due to work I’ll have to stop by and see that church sometime it is beautiful, thanks for sharing.There are many examples of the West having beautiful iconography all over Latin Rite churches.
Here is an example of a Byzantinesque Altar Screen which stands above the High Altar in the (RC) Basilica in Santa Fe.
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ziapueblo
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it is a very beautiful Church in person. We live down the road in Albuquerque.
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babochka
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This is beautiful. Thank you for sharing!
catholic03
Well-known member
Eastern Orthodoxy is a beautiful religion. If I could not be Catholic, I would be Eastern Orthodox.
I would say that Western Rite Orthodoxy, however, does not have the same amount of history in the Orthodox Church that Eastern Catholicism does in the Catholic Church.
I would say that Western Rite Orthodoxy, however, does not have the same amount of history in the Orthodox Church that Eastern Catholicism does in the Catholic Church.
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gohjedrek
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Anglican Use (Divine Worship) has a lot of kneeling, which contrasts with the Divine Liturgy which has a lot of standing. Though, I think a common similarity is that, although both rites aren’t as popular as the traditional and ordinary mass, but you see more people who want to be there. They want to participate and are more serious about their spirituality. For myself, being able to have the vernacular in the liturgy matters, but it differs for different people.
Well I think you might prefer western rite orthodoxy over Latin Mass/Ordinariate, the theology matters a lot at the end. Ordinariate, being a mixture of catholic theology and traditional english church patrimony and latin mass being a mixture of catholic theology and traditional catholic liturgy. There’s prayers for the pope and affirmation of the filioque in the Nicene Creed, but that isn’t found in western rite orthodoxy. As different as the western rite liturgy may be, I think they have firm orthodox theology rooted in them.
Count me in this group, If I could attend a Byzantine Catholic Church exclusively for the rest of my life, I would happily, but alas I know the wife isn’t up for that (while she admits that she finds the Divine Liturgy beautiful, she feels it is foreign to her, whereas she would sign up in a heartbeat for the Mass of the Ordinariate) amongst other obstacles.
Although going to an Odinariate Mass is my favorite of the Roman Rite and is quite beautiful, it just doesn’t draw me in the same as the Divine Liturgy Of the Byzantine tradition, when I attend a Byzantine parish on a semi regular basis I feel completely filled, spiritually speaking, in a way that I just haven’t felt in any of the church’s other traditions (eastern or western).
Also I agree, the vernacular is important to me for the church as well, I have been to several EF Masses (all were quite beautiful) and while I personally didn’t have too hard a time following along, I still prefer the Odinariate Mass.
A little off subject but, Idk why they didn’t formulate something much closer to the Anglican Use Mass at Vatican II, it sure seems to me something closer to it (the Anglican Use Mass) would’ve kept the traditionalists much happier while simultaneously formulating a “New Mass” in the vernacular.
All this gets me to thinking, has anyone (western rite orthodox, any group of traditionalists, or anyone else) attempted to do a direct translation of the EF Mass?
I know the missal has the translation for the EF in it, but what I mean to ask, is there, or has there been any group that has or has attempted the EF Mass entirely in the vernacular?
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twf
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Yep and if you go to Rome, church after church is just as “over the top” (in a good way!) as an Orthodox temple in terms of bright, beautiful imagery everywhere! A lot of the Roman Churches are simply stunning works of art from wall to wall to wall to wall to ceiling.
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George720
Guest
I have to say I was astonished - An actual American Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy, an original work, done not by a music composer “on a theme”, but done by a pious American Orthodox composer for the sake of this ancient and Holy Faith… Emotionally, at least, and very much symbolically, the autocephaly of Orthodoxy is, in this Hierarchical Service and at least in my soul, launched in the US of A!
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PilgrimMichelangelo
Guest
I have been researching Western Rite Orthodoxy for years now, and have been to Solemn High Mass at St. Michael’s in Whittier CA. Their version of history is something that does not quite have the ring of truth to it–they don’t have much of a leg to stand on–Eastern Catholicism by contrast makes complete sense historically and does not have to be defended with the innovative and frankly overblown assertions that favor Constantinople’s version of the Schism. I don’t see Western Rite Orthodoxy as helping heal the Schism because it perpetuates and emphasizes Patriarch Michael Cerularius’ invectives leveled against the Latin Church. The use of leavened bread, the addition of an epiclesis, the removal of the filioque, and the inability to choose a single stable rite seems more like “I’m right, your wrong” mentality that fails to address the real issue between Rome and the East: “supreme and immediate jurisdiction of the Papacy”.
This is a great twisting of history that makes the mind hurt trying to gloss over the contradictions in the historical record. More wishful thinking on the part of Western Orthodox who really want everything to make sense according to their side of the Schism…a perspective which is only recently developed in the last century and half…
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PilgrimMichelangelo
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I’ve been there too, but sadly there was a Requiem Mass going on so I could only peek through the frosted glass windows into the nave from the narthex…
Still, the churches of the Southwest are lovely and feel very spiritually homey…a fellow pilgrim and I even noted the sense of grace in Mission San Miguel that was similar to the St Herman of Alaska Monastery Church in Platina, CA.Have you been to Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in Santa Fe? It has beautiful iconography and Fr. John Bethancourt is a very wonderful, kind Priest.
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