Western Rite Orthodoxy, what do you think?

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PilgrimMichelangelo said:
Have you been to Holy Trinity Orthodox Church in Santa Fe? It has beautiful iconography and Fr. John Bethancourt is a very wonderful, kind Priest.
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Is this the same church as used to be in a flat, adobe-style building, possibly on the same site? I was in Santa Fe many years ago and drove by an Orthodox church meeting that description. If so, I wonder if they tore down the old buildings and constructed this church in their place?

Anybody familiar with Santa Fe who could address this?
 
PilgrimMichelangelo said:
Their version of history is something that does not quite have the ring of truth to it
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I have to agree. There is no historical continuity of any sort at work here, and, like you said, their version of history is a fabrication based on wishful thinking.

Also, extremely few of the extremely few Eastern Orthodox who have heard of them would consider them to be fellow Orthodox Christians. Even the mostly Syriac hierarchs who allow them a place in the fold see it as a temporary solution until they can be reunited with their own Western Christian brethren.

These groups were mostly formed by former Anglicans who left the Anglican community over female ordination, or Episcopalians that did so over LGBT issues.

Together, they probably don’t take in more than a few hundred members, mostly elderly. Sustainability is not likely as demographic attrition is unlikely to be offset by new members. Anyone leaving the Anglican Community and other Protestant communities over women priests and LGBT issues has already left, so the pool of potential converts has largely evaporated. And as most converts converted after their childbearing years, family transmission is not going to happen, especially as very few of the few children that they have would share their views on women and gays.

They might get a slight influx from disaffected conservatives from the United Methodist and RCC churches, but I don’t expect that to amount to very much.

I highly doubt they’ll gain any significant support from with the Eastern Orthodox Communion beyond the limited support they have already received.
 
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I think it’s a lot about exposure. The more exposed one is to the liturgy, the more one is able to appreciate it. Of course, there is the case of preference. Ordinariate and Eastern catholic churches have significant differences in community. In the former, you get majority of ex-anglican, while the latter you get majority of ex-orthodox. I would say the Divine Liturgy is more traditional than the Ordinariate Liturgy, though I haven’t been to the former. The Ordinariate Liturgy is generally as traditional as the Western Rite Orthodoxy but probably not as much as the Divine Liturgy.

Not too sure why Vatican ll did not directly translate the Traditional Latin Mass into strictly the vernacular, but I think the format of the ordinary mass was meant to be more for the people. The lay read the scriptures at mass, females can be altar servers, priest faces versus populum. It was really meant to make catholicism more welcoming rather than offer a strict direct translation of the TLM.

The Ordinariate, primary focus is more to offer familiarity for ex-anglican converts rather than traditional reverence. That is why even the Ordinariate Mass has slight differences to the Traditional Latin Mass with full english translation, such as the prayer of humble access, in order to cater to ex-anglicans. The big issue I have is the geographical proximity. For some, it can pose quite an issue of decision-making of which church to go to based on proximity, if they are currently attending a non-reverent ordinary mass and desire for a more traditional mass but in the vernacular.

There is something called the English Missal, used by anglo-catholics. It is almost identical to the EF in english, I managed to find a mass like this online. The amount of incense used is comparable to the EF mass.

 
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PilgrimMichelangelo said:
There are many examples of the West having beautiful iconography all over Latin Rite churches. 😊
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I was under impression that in Slavic areas, this was more usual than anywhere else. Especially since Latin Catholics who were Slavic held heritage of St. Cyril and St. Methodius. These Altars kind of have this “Church Slavonic Tridentine Mass” vibe to me 😃 and they are beautiful.
 
I am a Czech andi look to hus as a pioneer of the pre reformation fathers
 
And Eastern Orthodox. Would say that eastern rite Catholicism hurts any plans of healing the schism because the majority of all eastern rite sects within the Church of Rome were clergy and laymen who were former orthodox who asked to rejoin the under the pope to Eastern Orthodox they see that as under minding. Their church only the Maronite were a original rite of. The Church of Rome
 
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OK so I found this also:


After further reading I’ve found that this is the Divine Liturgy of St Gregory The Great, apparently it is meant to be a direct translation (albeit conformed to be in line with Orthodoxy) of the EF Mass and it is meant for traditionalist Catholics (Sedevacantists, Old Catholics etc.) who come into the Orthodox fold.

Whereas the first video I linked in this thread is the Divine Liturgy of St Tikhon, which is meant more for High Church Anglicans and is nearly (save for the few changes to conform it with Orthodoxy) identical to the Mass of the Ordinariate.

And it appears (at least in this video) Western Rite Orthodox do allow statues.
 
JOHNHUS1966 said:
And Eastern Orthodox. Would say that eastern rite Catholicism hurts any plans of healing the schism because the majority of all eastern rite sects within the Church of Rome were clergy and laymen who were former orthodox who asked to rejoin the under the pope to Eastern Orthodox they see that as under minding. Their church only the Maronite were a original rite of. The Church of Rome
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Yes, sadly many of my Orthodox brethren would see it that way. 😧 Hundreds of years of infighting between Catholics and Orthodox will cause many wounds, and many hurts that only humility, love, and mercy can heal.
 
That the Catholic Church is already diverse and I am content with it.
 
I am Eastern Orthodox and there is a Western parish near where I live (ROCOR), but I have actually never attended it. It looks beautiful and I could not find anything wrong with it, but I am happy and feel at home where I am. We pray in vernacular, we all participate in the singing, there is a great sense of community etc.

I should also say that I do not think of the Byzantine liturgies, which I am familiar with, as exclusively Eastern any more than I think of the Latin rite as exclusively Gallican or Italian. If a more traditional Western way of prayer help some people feel more at home however… go for it!
 
The notion of preserving the faith by the way we pray is still very strong in Orthodoxy, but I think most of us are more relaxed about things like this than what you find online, realizing that our faith can be expressed in more than one way. The negative things I have heard have mostly been about being wary of some sort of hidden agenda: “Why not just pray like the rest of us?”. It is quite silly, but also very human I think. I have a friend who is a Catholic Priest and he has told me similar stories from his diocese, but from the perspective of the other side of the river, obviously.
 
JOHNHUS1966 said:
Their church only the Maronite were a original rite of. The Church of Rome
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What? Maronite Church was not under Church of Rome… Maronites were original Church of Antioch (or have one of best claims to it). Anyway… Melkites were fully authentic and self-headed Church and decided to form Communion with Rome- so basically if Orthodox really think their Patriarchs are equal, Melkites are not dissenters. Same way, Ukrainian Church joined as a whole (or majority), Syriac Catholic has original line of Patriarchs etc etc etc…
 
Jbrady said:
These groups were mostly formed by former Anglicans who left the Anglican community over female ordination, or Episcopalians that did so over LGBT issues.

Together, they probably don’t take in more than a few hundred members, mostly elderly. Sustainability is not likely as demographic attrition is unlikely to be offset by new members. Anyone leaving the Anglican Community and other Protestant communities over women priests and LGBT issues has already left, so the pool of potential converts has largely evaporated. And as most converts converted after their childbearing years, family transmission is not going to happen, especially as very few of the few children that they have would share their views on women and gays.

They might get a slight influx from disaffected conservatives from the United Methodist and RCC churches, but I don’t expect that to amount to very much.
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It’s strange to adopt traditional liturgy, but have a liberal theology. Eventually, one will have to grapple with the issue of what is authentically right or wrong. I see most either end up going catholic or orthodox if they value tradition or evangelical if they don’t , the more they adopt a conservative theology. Ex-anglicans go many ways, some might as you mentioned leave to churches that are really small in numbers.
CathBoy1 said:
After further reading I’ve found that this is the Divine Liturgy of St Gregory The Great, apparently it is meant to be a direct translation (albeit conformed to be in line with Orthodoxy) of the EF Mass and it is meant for traditionalist Catholics (Sedevacantists, Old Catholics etc.) who come into the Orthodox fold.
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Those who desire for the western rite but deny papal infallibility, would find great comfort in a church like this. I personally don’t see a huge issue with attending a church like the above, coming from a high-anglican background. However, I think most eastern orthodox would be against this because they are more in tune with the eastern rite instead.
 
(No offense to anyone btw)
But I think it’s pure Hypocrisy
The Eastern Orthodox is always asking us “Uniates” to return to the Orthodox church and making fun of us for having latinised liturgies. Whenever they have meet, they always have something to say about us. And even worse is the fact they make anti uniate videos that are illogical…for example:


If Western Orthodoxy can exist, why not Eastern Catholicism? Go to the Oriental Orthodox church and you’ll see a fruitful relationship. Especally between The Syrian Catholic church and the Syriac Orthodox church. The Syro Malabar and Syriac Orthodox church also have a fruitful relationship and are known for backing each other up. The Syro Malankara church even stated that they would stand up for the Jacobites during there legal fights with the Malankara Orthdodox church. Catholicos Baselios Clemis’s croos is from the Syriac Orthodox bishop Joseph Mar Gregorios.


The only Oriental Orthodox church that has an issue for us is the Malankara Orthodox church, although the only strife between us is with the Syro Malankara church calling their Major Archbishop Catholicos. And also, why do they ask us to join the Eastern Orthodox church when many of don’t even have a real Orthodox counterpart?
 
Elvis_George said:
Go to the Oriental Orthodox church and you’ll see a fruitful relationship.
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In my view, Oriental Orthodoxy remained much closer to Early-Church organization and polemics do not have place in it, hence they are actually quite fine with returning to Catholicism or accepting Catholic dogmas (some Armenians even understand Papal Infallibility to be “fine”).
 
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