Westerners scared of criticising Islam?

  • Thread starter Thread starter cathopologist
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
so is bringing the gospel to the whole world, according to Christianity.

I find Christian evangelicals annoying, but I don’t need laws in order to tell them to I am not interested in what they are selling. Da’wa is still speech. And me telling them to shut the #$%* up is also speech.
This is why the Jehovah Witnesses are banned in Singapore. Because they were adamant on selling their religion door-to-door to people who didn’t want it, and in return, the JW’s cursed and hurled vulgarities. The Muslims here are allowed to be annoying evangelicals of their faith - that isn’t forbidden. What is discouraged is sneaky underhanded tactics to lure prospective converts to any faith. The Hijab maybe a harmless headdress to you, but it is a proselytizing tool for Muslim women and they use it skillfully.
Anyway, to come back to the original topic. It seems to me there is a general constriction of all religious speech in Europe, and that it cannot help but spread further and further and create increasing problems. This constriction is being seen both in the way critics of Islam (who are engaging in a kind of anti-da’wa, if you will) are being treated, and the way in which Islam itself is being constrained in its public practices.

The irony is generally that the two sides are often comfortable with the state silencing the other side, but do not see how it undermines their own opportunities for speech.

salaam.
There are critics for every religion on earth. Islam is no exception. I think Muslims have gotten so used to the idea they are ‘untouchable’ because for a very long time, criticising Muhammad means criticising God. So any outspoken critic of Islam would have been dealt with severely. But more and more non-Muslims have taken up the courage to expose the religion as it is and as how it presents itself to the world. You can have 1 billion magnificent mosques with beautiful Islamic geometric patterns all tiled up perfectly, but if all the worshippers within have black hearts and distrust, then all that grandeur outside of it is useless.

I’ve never been to Europe nor to the Middle East, but i’m pretty certain Muslims in Europe have better chances of practising their religion in peace and being able to climb the highest minaret in Europe to call the faithful to prayer. Can Christians in the Middle East countries do that? Build churches and ring bells to call the faithful to prayer? Minority Muslims in Europe are demanding governments set up Sha’ria laws. They’ve even taken it to the streets and protested - sometimes peacefully, sometimes violently. Who do you really think are the ones being constricted? The Muslim immigrants or the natives of Europe who have been there for generations after generations after generations?
 
Good point. I guess Christians-attacking-Jews started some centuries after that.
Try like more than a thousand years later.
Muslims didn’t attack Jews or Christians in Jerusalem, though. They left their places of worship in tact, even.
You know, historical revisionism doesn’t benefit anyone. Are you seriously going to ignore the huge taxes Muslim rulers set upon Jerusalem’s original Christian and Jewish inhabitants and how they were forced to become second-class citizens? Are you also going to ignore how Caliph Al-Hakim burnt down the Church of the Holy Sepulchre because he was jealous of the scale of people visiting the site for pilgrimage?
 
It isn’t fear as much as ignorance since many westerns know little of their own history much less world history regarding Islam. Westerners generally assume the hype is true when it isn’t. The hype being Christians, Jews and Moslems worship the same God, Christians and Jews lived peacefully under Moslem rule for 12 centuries, and Islam means peace.

When westerners think of it being the same God as Moslems and Jews, being majority Christian they assume Islam and the Koran have a peaceful philosophy like the intended one of Christianity. Most westerners historical frame of reference do not extend past WW2 so the first 12 centuries are not relevant to them. When told what the Quran really says and what Islamic history really is, most westerners dismiss it as ancient history as far removed as the OT stories, and that people of the 21st century have moved past such 7th century idealism since they are past it themselves.
 
The Hijab maybe a harmless headdress to you, but it is a proselytizing tool for Muslim women and they use it skillfully.
Unless they are right, what are you worried about? And if they are right, then God knows we need to be told. What is wrong with people talking about what they think is true? What is wrong if someone actually convinces another to become Muslim? or Christian…or JW (a part of me would love to see the JWs and Mormons made illegal, just so they would stop waking me up by knocking on my door on Saturday mornings so they can share “the word of God”).

I agree that in many cases, Muslims themselves in European settings need to get used to the function of free speech and how it works. But the European governments are not offering particularly good models when they restrict speech on both sides. But, this is a question about how liberal governments in Europe (and America and Aussie, etc.) ought to behave given their own traditions and the things they claim to hold. That I don’t like how Saudi runs its government does not provide an excuse for me to restrict Islamic speech here (and, just btw, I actually loved living in Saudi, no matter how much I think things need to change there). It is hard, e.g., to complain about Saudi requiring niqaab, if you are willing to require women to display their hair. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

I have lived in the Middle East and I know what it is like to be Christian there. In fact I lived in Saudi. There was a priest for Catholics who came around once a quarter (the Protestants just ran their own services), at most. And obviously he was not there as a priest, but in some other capacity. He couldn’t be a priest in public and we did not evangelize anyone. Things are also very different than that in Egypt, and it is fairly easy to be non-Egyptian and Catholic in Egypt (though, I think things are much more challenging for the native Copts, but there is a long history there).

salaam.
 
I think a bigger problem is fear of being called a bigot or a racest. For some, that is the greatest insult in the world
 
Who is afraid of Islam? Show me someone who is afraid to criticize Islam, and I will show you someone who has to realize and affirm the strength of their faith. Christians at least don’t need to be afraid of Islam. Proselytizing with hijab or anything else should be fine, if they will also listen when they are told that we are not interested. If not, then those individual people (because it is not all Muslims who behave this way) need to be told why their behavior is unacceptable. If they cannot deal with the fact that we refuse to become Muslims or become an Islamic state, then perhaps they should be penalized just as a Christian should be penalized in some way for preaching his faith in a way that he has been told is inappropriate. Everyone should certainly have equal freedom of speech, but that doesn’t mean the freedom to subjugate, harass, or threaten anyone, no matter what their religion is.

I come from an area of the USA with many Ethiopian and Eritrean immigrants who are mostly Oriental Orthodox. Their women also cover themselves, in accordance with Orthodox practice. It is a great sign of their inward faithfulness to see an old habesha woman praying in prostration when I go to the Glendi festival (Orthodox food and culture festival in my local area) to attend the talks on Orthodox church architecture and music, or to see their beautiful crosses that are hung on the walls of the local Ethiopian restaurant. Since I love those things, and would not want to see those expressions of faith be restricted among the immigrants for whom they are natural, I have to also respect and support the rights of the Muslim immigrants to wear the hijab, to preach their religion, to carry Qur’ans with them, or whatever else they do to show their faith, so long as they do it peacefully. I think the European governments who ban the expression of religion are setting themselves up for more conflict and tension with the Muslim immigrants because these states do not seem to understand that just because Europe as a socio-cultural construct is thoroughly secular to the point of being hostile or dismissive to religion doesn’t mean that all of its inhabitants are!

If the separation of church and state must be accomplished by suppressing one of the two, I should rather repress the state, because I am a Christian first and foremost and much more deeply than I am an American (America is not even a “Christian” country, of course). I guess Muslims feel much the same about their Islamic identity, which would be fine with everyone if their religion did not call for the establishment of worldwide Islamic government that places every non-Muslim in a state of subjugation to its inherently unequal “legal” structure. Recognizing this is in no way racist - it’s caring about your fellow human beings.

Muslims can continue to tell me that I am mistaken about Shari’a or any other point in Islam, but I have read many accounts of life under the Caliphate for the Syriac Christians, and it was not all picnics and polite disagreements. Islamic apologists do not know the history of religious engagement in the MidProxy-Connection: keep-alive
Cache-Control: max-age=0

e East than those people who were already on the land when the Muslims arrived. Would you trust an account of Columbus’ cruelty to the indians to come from Columbus himself? To be fair, life was also difficult for non-Christians under the medieval Christian kingdoms of Europe, but knowing how government-sponsored religion inevitably corrupts both government and religion, I have to conclude that it is stupid that Muslims continue to push for their law in the USA or Europe or anywhere else. What can you accomplish in Michigan for the peace and justice that you say Shari’a brings that you cannot accomplish in the actual Islamic governments of the Muslim world like Saudi or Iran? I can hear it now “those states are not Islamic! You’re being unfair!” Okay, okay, fine…I’ll leave it to Muslims to continue to strive for their Islamic paradise (which is hell on Earth for the rest of us, but I guess that doesn’t matter because we don’t “understand” it correctly), and to keep to myself the stories of life in the soviet union where people strove for their socialist paradise for nearly a century only to end up in lines for toilet paper and bread, and dying in camps in Kolyma after a life of doing far more work for socialism (literal physical labor) than any mujahid has done for Islam by killing an Israeli occupier or beheading an Assyrian who refused to renounce his religion.

Islam is a pipe dream at best, and a nightmare at worst. Somewhere away from its political ideology (to the extent that you can get away from it for argument’s sake), there are an awful lot of people who are good, kind, and generous, and who practice their faith with the most sincere exhibition of those qualities, which for them their faith generates and amplifies. There is nothing to criticize in these people, and to fear them just because their faith is different from mine is wrong.

But as to criticizing Islam in way that the OP is thinking of it: It deserves to be criticized, I will continue to criticize it, and I will not assent to it in any way. Political legitimacy is not a matter of respect for faith traditions, since those of us NOT living in the seventh century (and this includes Muslims who are not crazy) do in fact maintain a separation of faith and politics, insofar as it is necessary to not confuse the two.
 
Edit: I don’t know what that string of computerese about “proxy connections” is doing in the middle of my post. I did not put it there, and I am apparently not allowed to edit it out. Hopefully the post still makes sense despite that mysterious interruption. 😦
 
Really?

Like how Christians have been attacking Jews since Jesus’s time?

And how Christians and Jews have been attacking Muslims since Muhammad’s time?
Christians have committed crimes against Jews, but I have read of many Popes who have throughout the middle ages done much to protect them. And you forget, those who acted in an unchristian manner were not following their Holy Book, like Muslim extremists follow theirs.

As for Christians attacking Muslims, I am not aware of any such incidents, apart from the Crusades, and that was a defense. The Crusades would not have happened were it not for 400 years of Islamic Expansionism (expansionism would be a euphemism for “forced entry”) in mainly Christians regions.
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace
When the media was reporting the Border Guard Mutiny in Bangladesh, they did not even mention about the religion …
If they have not mentioned Bangladesh , a Muslim majority country…then it’s an exception.

School Shooting: Rampage on Islam?


The shooting spree and the horrific rampage that was carried out earlier this week by a German teenage gunman, Tim Kretschmer, who went to his former school in Winnenden and killed 16 people and then took his own life, is similar to what Michael Mclendon, an American gunman who earlier killed 10 people in Alabama including his own mother, grandmother, his uncle and two cousins.

Feelings of anger and full condemnation to the two incidents have been heard across the world, but surprisingly, the religions of the two shooters were not accused of promoting terrorism, supporting violence, or of teaching hatred towards others.

Western media has failed to mention that both shooters were Christians, and one of them wanted to sue his family, which he ended up killing, because he wanted to retrieve a family Bible, which would insinuate some religious association to his faith.

Let’s imagine for a second that these gunmen were Muslims. Would they still be mentioned by their nationalities only? Or would their religion — Islam — make the headlines?

readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1236508925996&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam%2FDIELayout
 
Western media has failed to mention that both shooters were Christians, and one of them wanted to sue his family, which he ended up killing, because he wanted to retrieve a family Bible, which would insinuate some religious association to his faith.

Let’s imagine for a second that these gunmen were Muslims. Would they still be mentioned by their nationalities only? Or would their religion — Islam — make the headlines?
Okay. Let’s go over this one more time.

The media of Western countries is, like the governments of those same countries, entirely secular. This means they no responsibility whatsoever to report of any religious matter of any kind, except what they consider to be noteworthy.

Even though they are not required to, often there is some compelling reason to mention religion in newspapers or magazine articles. Maybe they sell more copies that way. I don’t really know. But sometimes it does happen. A quick search for internet-posted news articles shows that when a news story directly involves religion (in other words, when the people profiled in it are motivated by their religion), then the religion will be mentioned. This happens to Christians as well as Muslims. Look at these stories that I found after a 2 minute Google search and you will see how your assumption is not exactly true:

Christian conflict in Ireland

Religiously-motivated anti-abortion violence from Christians

Ugandan Christian “Resistance Army” attacks Juba villages in Southern Sudan (reported by the BBC, probably the best known media organization in the Western world)

“Army of God” terrorist group mails anthrax to abortion clinics (this happened only a little while after 9/11/2001)

So you see, Muslim Woman, there is not really a concentrated effort to keep the religion of people who are committing crimes out of the media, if it is relevant to the story. If it is not relevant to the story, then it will probably not be included. If Muslims find themselves more often offended by the mention of a criminals’ religion when that criminal is a Muslim, maybe Muslims should not commit so much crime that directly relates to their religious identity (killing of “kufar” in Assyria, kidnapping of Christians in the majority-Muslim and succesionist-minded island of Mindanao in the Philippines, etc).

I will tell you something that maybe you do not know: Until relatively recently, the majority of US-born Muslims were African Americans in the “Nation Of Islam”. The first Muslims that I ever became friends with were raised in this group, and I didn’t know that they were Muslims until I had known them for a few years already and it didn’t change my feeling about them. Anyway, because they are black and American-born, they are generally treated as any other black American is (I’ll leave that to others to interpret as they wish), and if one of them commits a crime, it is generally treated by the media the way any other crime by a black person is, which is to say that the TV report will say “police are looking for a black male ages ____ to ____”, NOT “police are looking for a black MUSLIM male…” This is probably because the most recognizable/stereotypical features are listed, not the things that people likely would not notice.

So, while I agree with that the image of Islam in the Western media is often negative, I disagree that this constitutes any kind of bias by the Western media against Muslims. When a carbomb explodes in a Shia neighborhood in Iraq and Sunnis claim responsibility for it, then that is how it is reported, because that is the relevant facts of the event. It would not make sense to say instead: “Car bomb goes off in Muslim neighborhood; Muslims claim responsibility”. That does not tell us anything about the context of the event or the possible motive for it. Similarly, when a Christian’s religion is mentioned in connection to a crime, it is because that Christian did the crime out of his sense of religious motivation or obligation. Things like the example you gave about the German Christian who killed people and wanted to sue his family for possession of an old Bible are not good examples, unless it can be proven that he killed his family BECAUSE of the contents of the Bible itself. That is not the case, so really it doesn’t matter to the motive. You could replace “Bible” with any object (a rubber duck, a soccer ball, an umbrella…anything!), and the story would essentially the same, because there is no evidence that the man’s religious conviction influenced his desire to kill people.

Contrast that, if you please, with the many videos coming out of Iraq, Palestine, and other places that are unforunately very violent. These videos will begin usually with the words “Bismillah al-Rahman al-Raheem…” and have some more reading from the Qur’an or saying other Islamic things before the person in them decapitates or stabs to death another person, or before they commit a “martyrdom operation” like killing innocent people on a bus.

They’re not at all comparable. You are wrong.
 
I do not believe that. I can give some examples of why:
  1. A good portion kids in my school have grown to have, either a dis-like or hate for Muslims. Why? Well, when the terrorist attack in New York City (many call it 911) happened, and they heard it was in-fact Muslim fanatics who did it, they hated them.
  2. Some of them have had family who fought and died against Muslims in Desert Shield/Storm, and Iraqi Freedom.
I am not scared to critisize a Muslim. I am not scared to critisize anyone, but I do not make it a hobby, and do not really care if people are scared to do it, or do it a lot. No one should be scared to say what they want, I can say whatever I want, even if their was a law against it, I could say it, but I’d suffer the consequences, but I can still say what I want, and would not be afraid.
 
This is why the Jehovah Witnesses are banned in Singapore. Because they were adamant on selling their religion door-to-door to people who didn’t want it, and in return, the JW’s cursed and hurled vulgarities. The Muslims here are allowed to be annoying evangelicals of their faith - that isn’t forbidden. What is discouraged is sneaky underhanded tactics to lure prospective converts to any faith. The Hijab maybe a harmless headdress to you, but it is a proselytizing tool for Muslim women and they use it skillfully.

The Jehovah Witnesses should be banned in Malaysia too, they are really annoying …
 
“The West has become scared to criticise Islam and accepts death threats by Muslim extremists”, says Cardinal George Pell of Sydney in a speech he delivered in England. He goes on to say this, “Many in the West have grown used to practising self-censorship when it comes to Islam, just as we seem to accept that ex-Muslims who criticise Islam and extremism, such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, require round-the-clock police protection,” he said. “You can be persecuted for hate speech if you discuss violence in Islam, but there is little fear of a hate-speech prosecution for Muslim demonstrators with placards reading ‘Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas’.” Click link to read more.

Sad, but true. Although i personally know a few peace-loving Muslims, they too have a shallow dislike for Jews and Christians who evangelize. Be it in Singapore or anywhere around the world. It just makes me wonder how people (in this case, the Muslims i know) can hate someone or an entire race whom they have never met - but they hate because it is taught in their holy texts. Of course, what is happening in the M.E fuels their hatred even more. If Islam’s holy texts never mentioned about Christianity or Judaism in a disparaging manner, this hatred in them may not exist today.

Personally, i do not think “Westerners” are afraid of criticising Islam. I think Sister Amy and her likes would agree. 😃 I think its the Western governments and the EU who are curling their tails in between their legs - for fear of being castigated by the “international community”. By “international community” i mean of course, the rising number of Muslims around the world and Western empathizers such as Karen Armstrong, the liberal media, etc.
Gabriel of 12;

As far as the common folk, their is no fear of Muslims or the Islam religion. The fear in governments has to do with power, money and oil. We have lived free of Musilm influence and rule since the Catholic countries defeated their invasion of Europe militarily. The Muslim objective has not changed according to Islam, only their tactics have changed.To Out populate the Christian countries, (Christians dont help by legalising abortion) infiltrate Christian countries free societies through legal and political seats. It amazes me how Muslims can outlaw Christianity in their countries, and continue their Islamic objective to threat all others to either convert to Islam or die. Our elected officials have to wake up.

This would be a good transition if Islam extremist would not always take the lead, because their Islamic belief’s teach them too. Although, there are some peaceful Muslims who practice Islam, it does not neglect the threat of extremist ever coming to power to enforce the teachings of Islam by conversion or death, because these extremist believe that is what Islam teaches. Until their leaders can teach them that Islam does not teach deception to the enemies of Islam, (and extreme Muslims have the liberty of determining who their enemies are) and force conversion or death, the world will continue to have “Terroist” and the Muslim extremist.
 
I don’t think Westerners are scared of criticising Islam per se, they are cautious because of the religious vilification laws where truth is not a defence, and the only requirement is that someone has to be offended. This makes you liable for nuisance suits, whereby the offended victim gets to annoy you at no cost to themselves, and you are left to defend yourself at great cost to yourself (should you choose to get a lawyer). This must be stopped.

However, with the recently raised non-binding resolution at the UN General Assembly, the OIC (Organisation of Islamic Conference) is trying to implement shariah law in secular countries, as well as give them the justification to further harrass their own citizens and stifle any criticism.

This resolution is wrong on so many levels - but not least because it is the antithesis of the United Nation’s reason for being and the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. The sheer hypocrisy of Islamic nations knows no bounds and the UN has only itself to blame as it’s been appeasing these hypocrits and civilisational neanderthals for too long now.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top