Whaddya think???

[rr1213]

Oh c’mon Damascus and djrakowski, it is usually the Catholics on this forum lecturing us wayward Protestants about selective use of Scripture. I do not believe that Scripture contradicts itself. That being the case, it is necessary to have an understanding of what is said elsewhere in Scripture to be certain that you haven’t misunderstood the particular passage you are reading. Think of it this way…in this classic debate about faith/works it is a given–an absolute given–that any knowledgeable Protestant will rely on Romans and Ephesians to make his point. Likewise, it is guaranteed that any knowledgeable Catholic will cite James as the counterpoint in the discussion. If you only read James without looking at the other books, you almost certainly would conclude that we are saved through faith and works. If you read Romans and Ephesians and ignore James, you will likewise conclude that we are saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8). If you read these bible passages together though, as you must, then you run into the debate we are having here. It is incumbent upon the Protestant to harmonize, not ignore, James. It is incumbent upon the Catholic to harmonize, not ignore, Romans and Ephesians…(and, btw, we have at least two books on your side compared to your one…so there! )

 

[djrakowski]

Oh c’mon Damascus and djrakowski, it is usually the Catholics on this forum lecturing us wayward Protestants about selective use of Scripture. I do not believe that Scripture contradicts itself.

Except that the recipient(s) of Romans didn’t have Ephesians and James, and the recipient(s) of James didn’t have Romans and Ephesians, and the recipient(s) of Ephesians didn’t have James and Romans.

 

[rr1213]

Except that the recipient(s) of Romans didn’t have Ephesians and James, and the recipient(s) of James didn’t have Romans and Ephesians, and the recipient(s) of Ephesians didn’t have James and Romans.

I don’t think that is true. There are a number of references in the Scriptures to letters of the Apostles being circulated amongs the various churches, sometimes as the express instuction of the Apostle who wrote the letter.

 

[AlegreFe]

That must have been a terrible experience for you. I have thankfully avoided the suffering you describe relating to your children. As for believing that one’s problems come from a lack of faith, I remember when I first became a Christian as a child. It was through a study group that some of my evangelical neighbors set up. Later, I got sick (nothing big) and thought that it must be because of my sins. My mother brought over the leader of the study group to my bedside and she assured me that wasn’t the case. I suppose I was lucky to have that counsel at that time. You are, of course, correct that reading Job should dissuade anyone that suffering (in this life) necessarily comes from our personal sin. Can it? Yes, I think so, but mostl of the time I think that our individual suffering is the result of the fallen world we live in as opposed to personal sin.

How do you think the world came to be fallen? Everything bad in this world is due to everyone’s personal sin. The world just doesn’t fall, as you put it, all on it’s own. There are people in this world and each of our actions affect another, and so on.

Since we are all one body as Christians, what we do affects everyone else. When one member suffers it affects the whole body.

Our suffering is the result of personal sin. The sufferings of our family is due to personal sin. That is sad to say but it’s true. We have to suffer in this world, especially if we bring it on ourselves. We sin, we suffer.

Our sin caused Jesus to suffer on the cross. Do you think we’re going to get off scott free without suffering at all?

Jesus had to die first before he resurrected.
Good Friday always comes before Easter Sunday.
No pain, no gain.
No guts, no glory.
No cross, no crown.

It’s good to know that my suffering is not for nothing. My suffereing is redemptive and I thank God for that. We can have a share in divine life if we offer up our sufferings and unite them to the sufferings of Jesus Christ.

Col 1:24
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for
your sake, and in my flesh I am filling
up what is lacking in the afflictions of
Christ on behalf of his body, which
is the church

 

[rr1213]

So, was Job’s suffering do to his personal sins? I don’t think so. Creation was corrupted when Adam and Even chose to sin against God by eating of the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge. From that point forward, our human natures became corrupted and illness and death entered the world. That is the reasons why we suffer. Read Genesis. Although sometimes our suffering can be the result of particular sins in our lives, most of the time that is not the case. Think about it…if the opposite were true, then the most righteous among us would suffer less than the most sinful, right? We know from personal experience that is often not the case. Look at Stalin, an evil man by any standard, how did he suffer? He pretty much obtained everything he wanted in this life. Look at JPII, a righteous man by any standard. Why was he striken late in life with Parkinson’s disease…beause of his sin? I doubt it.

 

[djrakowski]

I don’t think that is true. There are a number of references in the Scriptures to letters of the Apostles being circulated amongs the various churches, sometimes as the express instuction of the Apostle who wrote the letter.

But, you have no idea which churches had which letters. Therefore, the point stands - each of these letters were written to specific churches to address specific matters. And, did each of these three books - Romans, Ephesians and James - was there reference each of these letters being distributed to each of the other churches?

Furthermore, none of us really knows the backstory of these letters - that is, what the author and audience were able to assume that wasn’t addressed in them. The letters were, perhaps obviously, not written to address what they didn’t address.

 

[djrakowski]

Our suffering is the result of personal sin. The sufferings of our family is due to personal sin. That is sad to say but it’s true. We have to suffer in this world, especially if we bring it on ourselves. We sin, we suffer.

Sorry to disagree with you, since we nearly always agree. But, remember what God said about Job’s friends who made exactly this accusation? As the book of Job says, in the first verse of the first chapter: “In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.” And God, in response to such accusations by Job’s friends, replied, in Job 42:7, "After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”

What personal sins have my children committed to have merited being afflicted with autism? What sins have my wife and I committed that have led to the development of autism in my children?

One of my favorite passages on suffering is from John 9:1-3 - "As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.”

This passage explains how I now feel about the fact that my children have autism. God allowed this to happen to our family so that his power might be displayed through them. I’m not yet sure what form that will take, but I believe it with all of my heart.

 

[djrakowski]

So, was Job’s suffering do to his personal sins? I don’t think so. Creation was corrupted when Adam and Even chose to sin against God by eating of the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge. From that point forward, our human natures became corrupted and illness and death entered the world. That is the reasons why we suffer. Read Genesis. Although sometimes our suffering can be the result of particular sins in our lives, most of the time that is not the case. Think about it…if the opposite were true, then the most righteous among us would suffer less than the most sinful, right? We know from personal experience that is often not the case. Look at Stalin, an evil man by any standard, how did he suffer? He pretty much obtained everything he wanted in this life. Look at JPII, a righteous man by any standard. Why was he striken late in life with Parkinson’s disease…beause of his sin? I doubt it.

My friend and fellow Christian, we’re exactly on the same page on this issue. You’ve explained it well

 

[ALLFORHIM]

ALL for Him! Hi!

Did not see the part about any rewards in heaven being greater for anyone.

Sorry, I must have missed it. It says no such thing from what you cited.

Hi,
I never said anything about being greater in heaven. I was just simply saying we get rewards when entering heaven. I dont know what they are or how it works because that is simply a mystery.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

So, was Job’s suffering do to his personal sins? I don’t think so. Creation was corrupted when Adam and Even chose to sin against God by eating of the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge. From that point forward, our human natures became corrupted and illness and death entered the world. That is the reasons why we suffer. Read Genesis. Although sometimes our suffering can be the result of particular sins in our lives, most of the time that is not the case. Think about it…if the opposite were true, then the most righteous among us would suffer less than the most sinful, right? We know from personal experience that is often not the case. Look at Stalin, an evil man by any standard, how did he suffer? He pretty much obtained everything he wanted in this life. Look at JPII, a righteous man by any standard. Why was he striken late in life with Parkinson’s disease…beause of his sin? I doubt it.

I don’t think that AlegraFe is saying that Pope John Paul II was suffering Parkinsin’s because of his own sins though. In fact, AlegreFe, if I’m reading her posts correctly, is saying the opposite is true-- he was suffering because of other people’s sins.

Coming back to Job, we likewise see that he was suffering because of the sins of others too…the devil’s sins to be precise…

Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you **incited me **against him to ruin him without any reason.”

The reason why Job was suffering was because satan was railing false accusations against Job. More precisely, the adversary was quite literally yelling in God’s face saying that Job did not deserve the good graces he had been given from God.

“Skin for skin!” Satan replied. “A man will give all he has for his own life. But stretch out your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

In other words, the adversary was tempting God to lash out at Job in order to prove that Job didn’t really trust God as much as everyone believed Job trusted God. More to the point, however, Job did trust God despite the accusations made against him. God already knew this, and he allowed the adversary the free-will to tempt Job in order to prove the adversary wrong.

Ironically, the only one who was actually cursing God to his face was the adversary himself. He cursed God to his face when he blatently questioned God’s right to allow so many blessings upon Job and then tempted God to destroy Job for reasons that were ultimately false accusations against him.

God didn’t destroy Job though. He destroyed the accusations of the adversary by allowing Job to prove God judgements right.
Revelation 12:10:

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

 

[Damascus]

Hi,
I never said anything about being greater in heaven. I was just simply saying we get rewards when entering heaven. I dont know what they are or how it works because that is simply a mystery.

I apologize again. You keep reminding me we get rewards (plural) when entering heaven.

I read those scriptures you cited and am at a total loss to see this.

Sorry for being such a stoop, but where do you see it?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Sorry to disagree with you, since we nearly always agree.

Then maybe you should actually read her posts…
AlegraFe:

How do you think the world came to be fallen? Everything bad in this world is due to everyone’s personal sin. The world just doesn’t fall, as you put it, all on it’s own. There are people in this world and each of our actions affect another, and so on.

She not saying that all suffering is the result of individual personal sin. She saying that some suffering is the result of personal sin-- but she’s also saying that a majority of the suffering we endure is the result of other people’s sins too.

At least try to grasp what she’s saying before you slander her words that way.

m’kay?

Thank you.

 

[djrakowski]

At least try to grasp what she’s saying before you slander her words that way.

m’kay?

Thank you.

Slander? I merely questioned them. Based upon her posting history in which she’s evidenced patience and charity, I know she won’t view this as an insult in the manner you just have. She’s also smart enough to correct and misperceptions I may have of her writings, and I will likewise wait patiently to see if she corrects me.

Furthermore, this isn’t a matter on which the Church insists that we agree, so it seems a bit strange that you would pick a fight with me over it.

I’ll put the question to you, then: please explain whose personal sins have led to the development of autism in my children, and the subsequent suffering they’ve had to endure, and do so in light of the passage I quoted from John 9.

This whole discussion reminds me of why I left a particular evangelical church in the first place.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I apologize again. You keep reminding me we get rewards (plural) when entering heaven.

I read those scriptures you cited and am at a total loss to see this.

Sorry for being such a stoop, but where do you see it?

Hi D,
I dont think I can explain it any better then the Scriptures do. I dont know what to say. The Scriptures seem clear to me anyway. Like I said Im not an expert on this particular topic so I would suggest asking someone else or researching it yourself.

Im sorry.

Come to think of it Im not an expert on any topic.

 

[Damascus]

I’ll put the question to you, then: please explain whose personal sins have led to the development of autism in my children, and the subsequent suffering they’ve had to endure, and do so in light of the passage I quoted from John 9.

Okay, I know this is not for me but - if you dont mind? I would like to take a stab at this one.

Your children are a gift to us all to keep in mind how Jesus is everywhere in everyone and he most likely is more so in them, as Jesus Christ became small to show us what large is. Your children are large in Jesus in my opinion and I see it in my nephew who has downs. I see it clearly in the way his parents love him so and how he loves everyone. Its clear to me.

 

[djrakowski]

Okay, I know this is not for me but - if you dont mind? I would like to take a stab at this one.

Please, feel free

Your children are a gift to us all to keep in mind how Jesus is everywhere in everyone and he most likely is more so in them, as Jesus Christ became small to show us what large is. Your children are large in Jesus in my opinion and I see it in my nephew who has downs. I see it clearly in the way his parents love him so and how he loves everyone. Its clear to me.

Damascus, thank you for your kind words. That’s almost universally the answer I’ve gotten from serious Catholics ever since I started looking into conversion, so I was surprised when I saw the discussion develop in the direction it did. I’d like to get the opinions of those who say that individual, personal sins are responsible for my children’s suffering, in contradiction to the passage I quoted from St. John’s gospel.

 

[rr1213]

I don’t think that AlegraFe is saying that Pope John Paul II was suffering Parkinsin’s because of his own sins though. In fact, AlegreFe, if I’m reading her posts correctly, is saying the opposite is true-- he was suffering because of other people’s sins.

Coming back to Job, we likewise see that he was suffering because of the sins of others too…the devil’s sins to be precise…

I agree with your discussion of Job, but not your analysis of Alegrefe’s post. She said “Everything bad in this world is due to everyone’s personal sin. The world just doesn’t fall, as you put it, all on it’s own. There are people in this world and each of our actions affect another, and so on…Our suffering is the result of personal sin. The sufferings of our family is due to personal sin.”

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Slander? I merely questioned them. Based upon her posting history in which she’s evidenced patience and charity, I know she won’t view this as an insult in the manner you just have. She’s also smart enough to correct and misperceptions I may have of her writings, and I will likewise wait patiently to see if she corrects me.

Furthermore, this isn’t a matter on which the Church insists that we agree, so it seems a bit strange that you would pick a fight with me over it.

I’ll put the question to you, then: please explain whose personal sins have led to the development of autism in my children, and the subsequent suffering they’ve had to endure, and do so in light of the passage I quoted from John 9.

This whole discussion reminds me of why I left a particular evangelical church in the first place.

Hi,

I work with autistic children. If you ever want to talk privately just pm me. I dont think anyones personal sin would lead a child to have autism. But, I also cant explain why God made them that way except to say that child has a purpose from God in your lives. It is a good purpose whatever it may be.

 

[djrakowski]

Hi,

I work with autistic children. If you ever want to talk privately just pm me. I dont think anyones personal sin would lead a child to have autism. But, I also cant explain why God made them that way except to say that child has a purpose from God in your lives. It is a good purpose whatever it may be.

Thank you, also, for your kind words I’m personally holding on to Jesus’ words in John 9, as they give me great comfort.

 

[AlegreFe]

So, was Job’s suffering do to his personal sins? I don’t think so. Creation was corrupted when Adam and Even chose to sin against God by eating of the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge. From that point forward, our human natures became corrupted and illness and death entered the world. That is the reasons why we suffer. Read Genesis. Although sometimes our suffering can be the result of particular sins in our lives, most of the time that is not the case. Think about it…if the opposite were true, then the most righteous among us would suffer less than the most sinful, right? We know from personal experience that is often not the case. Look at Stalin, an evil man by any standard, how did he suffer? He pretty much obtained everything he wanted in this life. Look at JPII, a righteous man by any standard. Why was he striken late in life with Parkinson’s disease…beause of his sin? I doubt it.

I can suffer due to someone else’s personal sin. Someone else can suffer due to my personal sin. You should go back and read my post again. I never said that my own sin causes my own suffering only. I never said that your own sin only causes your suffering.

Please read my post again. I will put only part of it here;

“How do you think the world came to be fallen? Everything bad in this world is due to everyone’s personal sin. The world just doesn’t fall, as you put it, all on it’s own. There are people in this world and each of our actions affect another, and so on.”

As far as Stalin, if he didn’t suffer in this world then we can imagine what he could possibly be doing in the next. I’m not sentencing the man here. I don’t know if he repented at the last minute. But let’s just say we can imagine that’s he’s suffering in the “next world.”

I would rather suffer now instead of later. Wouldn’t you?

As far as the Pope suffering, you could say that he suffered as Paul said in Colossians 1:24. The Pope had a big share in redemptive suffering.

This is where Protestants will not understand the Catholic perspective on suffering.
Catholics know that God makes His best friends suffer. All the Saints up in Heaven right now suffered here on earth. Their Sanctification started way before they got to Heaven.

Saint Francis had the stigmata. Saint Padre Pio suffered with the stigmata for 50 years. He was a saint here on earth. There are so many more Saints that suffered. St. Bernadette was always sick… there’s lots more.

Please read my post again. I know that we don’t always suffer only because of our own sin.

God prunes us here on earth to bring us closer to Him. When we pick up our cross, I mean truly pick it up and ask God to take away whatever is causing us to sin, then we will suffer. Our Sanctification will, as a result, start here on earth.

If you or anyone in your family is suffering, it’s because God wants you to be closer to Him; He loves you. Offer up whatever sufferings you are going through and give them to Jesus. If you’re Catholic then give them to Jesus through Mary. She’ll magnifiy it all the more for you before she gives it to Jesus.