WHAT!?!? 1 John 5:7

  • Thread starter Thread starter catholic1seeks
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

catholic1seeks

Guest
VERY COOL! I NEVER RECALL READING OR HEARING this verse:

1 John 5:7

“And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.”

I think that is absurd!!! In all apologetics articles I read on the Trinity, I never see this verse. This is a very clear indication of the Trinity! Why have I never heard of this!!?!? :eek:

(I guess I should read the epistles more!)
 
Probably because it isn’t translated that way. The actual verse in question refers to the Spirit and the water and the blood, not to the Father Son and Holy Spirit specifically. I’m curious what translation you are using, because the actual words Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not found in the Greek either.

I am not attacking the belief obviously, but if you are going to use that for your apologetic you should definitely be aware that it is not, in fact, what the verse actually says, and that is probably why apologists don’t use it, to answer your question. Sorry 😦
 
I’m actually curious what you mean, I haven’t heard this term before.
 
I just checked my NAB Catholic edition and it says “So there are three that testify, the Spirit, the water and the blood, and the three are of one accord.” To be of one accord means to agree.

I next went to BibleGateway.com (a non-catholic bible verse search website) and checked several translations. There are only 3 that list what is in the OP, and they are all versions of the King James Bible.

All the other translations basically agreed with my NAB, although the wording varied slightly.
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
I’m actually curious what you mean, I haven’t heard this term before.
Click to expand...
Johannine Comma (or it’s Latin equivalent) is the term given to the apparently added words (not found in manuscripts before the middle ages) in 1 John 5:7 regarding the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit.
 
Oh okay. Yeah I just looked it up and found another thread about it. I definitely would not use it as an apologetic, otherwise first you have to defend the verse, then the doctrine of the trinity lol.
 
Oh, it was on the New Advent site.

EDIT:

This is what is says at Newadvent.org:

newadvent.org/bible/1jo005.htm

1 John 5:6-8

This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth that Christ is the truth. Came by water and blood… Not only to wash away our sins by the water of baptism, but by his own blood. 7 And there are Three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. 8 And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one.
 
The New Catholic Encyclopedia explains that
the bracketed phrases appear in the [Vulgate] version of the Bible, the official version of the Sacred Scriptures for the Latin Rite of the Church. Among scholars these phrases are commonly called the “Johannine Comma.” On the basis of manuscript evidence scholars seriously question their authenticity. The Comma is absent in all the ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament with the exception of four rather recent manuscripts that date from the thirteenth to the sixteenth centuries.
Click to expand...
The Comma is lacking in such ancient Oriental versions as the Peshitta, Philoxenian, Coptic, Ethiopic, and Armenian. While the majority of the Latin manuscripts of 1 John do contain the Comma, the earlier and better manuscripts, both the Old Latin and the Vulgate versions, lack it. The earliest manuscript in which it appears dates from the ninth century.
Click to expand...
The Fathers of the East do not quote or refer to the Johannine Comma in their Christological controversies. This omission indicates that the Comma was not part of the biblical text of their time, for they surely would have used it had it been in the text. Some fourth-century Latin writers, while referring to 1 John 5:8b and giving this a Trinitarian interpretation, failed to give any indication that they knew of the existence of the Comma as a scriptural passage.
Click to expand...
Due to the overcritical spirit that was prevalent in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the Church considered it necessary in its decree of the Holy Office of January 13,1897 to caution its scholars against rashly rejecting or doubting the authenticity of this passage. However, in a decree of June 2, 1927, the Holy Office clarified its earlier statement in declaring that scholars may be inclined to doubt or reject the authenticity of the Johannine Comma subject to any forthcoming judgment of the Church. No scholar any longer accepts its authenticity. But even though the Comma is not a biblical passage, it is a firm witness to the fact that the faith of the [early] Christian was fully Trinitarian.
Click to expand...
Dang! I got my hopes up… LOL

Oh well, there are still other good Trinitarian passages!
 
OK, that is coming from the Douay-Rheims translation, which I believe (and somebody please correct me if I’m wrong) is basically the Catholic version of the King James. There are words added in verses 7 & 8 when compared to my NAB version.

Very interesting.

P.S. I am not claiming that my NAB translation is the ultimate authority, only that it is the Catholic hard copy bible that I own, having been given to me when I went through RCIA. Actually, I have two since I started RCIA, quit after the Rite of Welcome and then started again a few years later. The second time ended with my confirmation at the Easter Vigil. 👍
 
1 John 5
6 This is the one who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth.
7 So there are three that testify,
8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P12F.HTM

1 John 5
6 Hic est, qui venit per aquam et sanguinem, Iesus Christus; non in aqua solum sed in aqua et in sanguine. Et Spiritus est, qui testificatur, quoniam Spiritus est veritas.
7 Quia tres sunt, qui testificantur:
8 Spiritus et aqua et sanguis; et hi tres in unum sunt.

vatican.va/archive/bible/nova_vulgata/documents/nova-vulgata_nt_epist-i-ioannis_lt.html#5
 
The Johannine Comma occurs in the Clementine Vulgate and in the NT received by the Greek Churches as well as the liturgical Epistle book used by the Churches of the Byzantine Tradition.
 
I have always wondered about the Johannine Comma. Does it belong in the Bible? Was it in the Latin Vulgate translated by Jerome? 🤷:confused: I know that some Protestant Bibles remove this verse. I am not sure about Catholic Bibles.
 
mtnutt said:
OK, that is coming from the Douay-Rheims translation, which I believe (and somebody please correct me if I’m wrong) is basically the Catholic version of the King James.
Click to expand...
The Douay-Rheims translation was published a year or two before the King James translation. The King James translators consulted the Douay-Rheims when they prepared their translation. So, the King James translation is basically the Protestant version of the Douay-Rheims. 😛
 
Holly3278 said:
I have always wondered about the Johannine Comma. Does it belong in the Bible? Was it in the Latin Vulgate translated by Jerome? 🤷:confused: I know that some Protestant Bibles remove this verse. I am not sure about Catholic Bibles.
Click to expand...
Better question yet is how exactly it got in there cause that’s a serious mistake. It only says from the 9th century on it popped up but who exacty started it I’d like to know.
 
Des said:
Better question yet is how exactly it got in there cause that’s a serious mistake. It only says from the 9th century on it popped up but who exacty started it I’d like to know.
Click to expand...
There is a extensive article on wiki about this. Read the part about Erasmus who was the Catholic scholar who prepared the Greek text underlying the KJV which includes the verse in question.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top