What 10 Priests Say About Contraception

[Jaaanosik]

Because that is still not a fact. A fact is something that is absolute. Something does not become a fact just because of a majority vote. You really do seem to be confusing facts and opinions. An opinion is a personal viewpoint, a fact is something absolute. Back in the 1940s most people were of the opinion that smoking was actually good for you, clearly that was not a fact.

Saying that abstinence is bad for your health has absolutely no basis in fact, regardless of how many people may, or may not, hold this opinion. Has there been any medical research that proves this to be the case? No. However there is medical evidence to show the health dangers of taking oral contraceptives. There is also evidence to show that sexual promiscuity results in a greater spread of STDs. Then there are the HIV risks associated with promiscuity, particularly with homosexual sex.

Facts are not determined by the results of opinion polls, all these tell us is about the opinions people hold. Opinions are not facts, they are opinions. You are confusing the two.

If there was a medical research - ten thousand people asked the same question:
Does periodic sexual abstinence and following NFP affects your psychological state in a negative way?

Let’s say 90% answers yes. Then it’s a fact that 90% is affected negatively.
Let’s say 10% answers yes. Then it’s a fact that 10% is affected negatively.

That would be the reality - that would be the fact - that would be the truth. It would not be black and white.

The fact is that many people say yes to the above mentioned question.

 

[Jerurussia]

Well, the divorce rate in couples using NFP is virtually non-existent…May I coin a phrase?

ABSTINENCE MAKES TWO HEARTS GROW FONDER!

 

[Brendan_64]

If there was a medical research - ten thousand people asked the same question:
Does periodic sexual abstinence and following NFP affects your psychological state in a negative way?

Let’s say 90% answers yes. Then it’s a fact that 90% is affected negatively.
Let’s say 10% answers yes. Then it’s a fact that 10% is affected negatively.

That would be the reality - that would be the fact - that would be the truth. It would not be black and white.

The fact is that many people say yes to the above mentioned question.

That would not be factual research, that would be an opinion poll. All that would give you is what the opinions of these people are.

And there hasn’t even been such an opinion poll, let alone proper evidence.

Are you now determining what is fact, based not just on an opinion poll, but on an opinion poll that hasn’t even happened?

Opinions do not represent fact, regardless of how many people do, or do not, hold such opinions.

 

[Corki]

Have you ever heard about invincible ignorance? People might be invincibly ignorant and spiritually healthy. Who are you to judge that?
Even the Church recognizes that.

Invincible ignorance is a very special, and rare, situation. I have not met a Catholic in the last 40 years that didn’t know that contraception is a sin. So, yes, I concede that there might be a very minute number of Catholic couples who are contracepting in invincible ignorance and not (or less) culpable. But this particular little piece of discussion was started with your statement, “This is unnatural and not healthy for most of the people.” There is no way that “most” Catholics are invincibly ignorant in this regard.

What are those medical facts about the side effects, let’s say, of mutual masturbation?

What does that have anything to do with a conversation about contraception?

 

[Jaaanosik]

That would not be factual research, that would be an opinion poll. All that would give you is what the opinions of these people are.

And there hasn’t even been such an opinion poll, let alone proper evidence.

Are you now determining what is fact, based not just on an opinion poll, but on an opinion poll that hasn’t even happened?

Opinions do not represent fact, regardless of how many people do, or do not, hold such opinions.

Please, check the work of married couples that were part of the HV commission.

 

[Royalist]

Really???

Look how quickly the gay “marriage” thing has moved. Thirty years ago they would have called you crazy if you told them it would become widespread and “normal”.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Invincible ignorance is a very special, and rare, situation. I have not met a Catholic in the last 40 years that didn’t know that contraception is a sin. So, yes, I concede that there might be a very minute number of Catholic couples who are contracepting in invincible ignorance and not (or less) culpable. But this particular little piece of discussion was started with your statement, “This is unnatural and not healthy for most of the people.” There is no way that “most” Catholics are invincibly ignorant in this regard.

From newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm

It is undeniable that a man cannot be invincibly ignorant of the natural law, so far as its first principles are concerned, and the inferences easily drawn therefrom. This, however, according to the teaching of St. Thomas, is not true of those remoter conclusions, which are deducible only by a process of laborious and sometimes intricate reasoning. Of these a person may be invincibly ignorant.

From vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/family/documents/rc_pc_family_doc_12021997_vademecum_en.html

The principle according to which it is preferable to let penitents remain in good faith in cases of error due to subjectively invincible ignorance, is certainly to be considered always valid, even in matters of conjugal chastity.

In other words, if a person does not understand the natural law behind HV then that person might be invincibly ignorant.
Corki;:

What does that have anything to do with a conversation about contraception?

If the mutual masturbation is not considered contraception then nothing, if yes then what are those side effects?

 

[Duane1966]

Some unbelievably bad statements in here. Jesus was not married, does that mean he could not preach on divorce? Someone said contraception helps reduce STD’s. What? STD’s are rampant and according to the CDC the rates are rising. Must be all the NFPers that are causing the rates to rise.

Life is a chance. Every one of us that is born is a miracle. I was the youngest of many kids. And we were poor. It would have been easy for my parents to have used contraception after the third or fourth and then I would have never come into existence. The same could be said for many of us here. And yet because of our selfishness we deny others that same chance at life. And I say we because I was guilty also. I know when I die the Father will say to me: I wanted to send you more children but you would rather have had cable, internet, the latest smart phone etc. etc. rather than give another soul the gift of life.

The Church is right. It took me a long time to see what is so obvious to me now. No one is blinder than one who will not see.

 

[OraLabora]

I have not met a Catholic in the last 40 years that didn’t know that contraception is a sin.

I think it would be more accurate to say: “I have not met a Catholic in the last 40 years who doesn’t know that the Church says contraception is a sin”.

I know plenty of Catholics who claim it isn’t a sin. They certainly can’t claim invincible ignorance. They probably cannot claim a well-formed conscience either. But they all think the Church is wrong, or for various reasons, the teaching doesn’t apply to them. You might get the odd one to admit “yeah, I know it’s a sin, but I’m just too weak to follow that teaching”.

Somehow, the message hasn’t gotten through. Or rather, that it has and has been fairly widely rejected, is probably more accurate to say.

Let’s just all admit that the marketing on this teaching has failed abysmally.

 

[Corki]

I think it would be more accurate to say: “I have not met a Catholic in the last 40 years who doesn’t know that the Church says contraception is a sin”.

I know plenty of Catholics who claim it isn’t a sin. They certainly can’t claim invincible ignorance. They probably cannot claim a well-formed conscience either. But they all think the Church is wrong, or for various reasons, the teaching doesn’t apply to them. You might get the odd one to admit “yeah, I know it’s a sin, but I’m just too weak to follow that teaching”.

Somehow, the message hasn’t gotten through. Or rather, that it has and has been fairly widely rejected, is probably more accurate to say.

True, your phrasing is more accurate. But if someone knows that the Church says contraception is a sin, he/she can no longer claim invincible ignorance and following a malformed conscience is still culpable if one goes willingly against Church teaching,

Let’s just all admit that the marketing on this teaching has failed abysmally

:sad_yes:

 

[Corki]

If the mutual masturbation is not considered contraception then nothing, if yes then what are those side effects?

No it is not.

 

[Jaaanosik]

No it is not.

I guess it’s interesting to hear that couples practicing mutual masturbation are not contracepting.

 

[Jaaanosik]

I think it would be more accurate to say: “I have not met a Catholic in the last 40 years who doesn’t know that the Church says contraception is a sin”.

I know plenty of Catholics who claim it isn’t a sin. They certainly can’t claim invincible ignorance. They probably cannot claim a well-formed conscience either. But they all think the Church is wrong, or for various reasons, the teaching doesn’t apply to them. You might get the odd one to admit “yeah, I know it’s a sin, but I’m just too weak to follow that teaching”.

Somehow, the message hasn’t gotten through. Or rather, that it has and has been fairly widely rejected, is probably more accurate to say.

Let’s just all admit that the marketing on this teaching has failed abysmally.

Why not?
Do you understand the quotes I provided?

 

[Corki]

I guess it’s interesting to hear that couples practicing mutual masturbation are not contracepting.

The may or may not be contracepting when they have relations but masturbation is not contraceptive. It’s not a moral sexual practice but all immoral sexual practices are not contraception.

 

[PJM]

=Katholish;12260410]Instead of asking one priest a whole bunch of questions, have you ever wanted to ask a whole bunch of priests just one question? I find this a super-interesting format, and great content.

What 10 Priests Say About Contraception
Totally worth a read. They have some big names too like Fr. Donald Calloway and Msgr. Charles Pope.

I agree

This is an excellent explanation of our Catholic beliefs; expressed well:thumbsup:

 

[Jaaanosik]

The may or may not be contracepting when they have relations but masturbation is not contraceptive. It’s not a moral sexual practice but all immoral sexual practices are not contraception.

If it’s not contraception then how is it immoral?

 

[davidv]

If it’s not contraception then how is it immoral?

Things other than contraception are immoral. Like murder, or adultery, perhaps?

 

[Corki]

If it’s not contraception then how is it immoral?

Masturbation is abuse of a person’s sexual faculties. It is a sexual sin. Contraception is a completely different kind of sin. Contraception is sexual in context but is primarily a sin against the Sacrament of marriage.

You don’t really believe that contraception is the only immoral activity, do you?

 

[manualman]

Anyone who doubts the ability of humankind to rationalize the morality of the actions they WANT to do must not get out much. Given that basic fact of fallen humanity, the opinions of those who have voluntarily given up the goods of marriage for the sake of the gospel should be perceived as the only really objective reasoning on the subject.

Those of us married really need to evaluate our ability to be objective. If humans were able to routinely be objective on subjects that are emotionally involved in, the advertising industry wouldn’t exist. We aren’t, which is why billions are spent on ads.

 

[manualman]

If it’s not contraception then how is it immoral?

Masturbation (any sort) is a sin against chastity, and is sinful for very similar reasons that contraception is. But that doesn’t mean one should include it in the definition of contraception.

There is no doubt that many people struggle with this topic. But then again, we live in a culture that fundamentally mis-understands what sex IS, so is that really surprising?

God made humanity, right? God has clearly indicated that the sexual relationship is of serious moral import, right (It’s in the 10 commandments, for crying out loud). So why is it so hard to believe that God may have given significant revelations to help Christians avoid pitfalls related to our human fallen-ness?

You seem to have no small amount of bitterness in regards to NFP and some of that may be due to poor explanations by catholics over the years that lead to faulty expectations. NFP itself is NOT good for a marriage. What’s good for marriage is open communications, mutual respect and willingness to sacrifice for one’s beloved. The practice of NFP to avoid pregnancy requires all those things, but does not produce them. You gotta work at it. NFP does add stress to life because it is NOT the catholic alternative to contraception. It’s the catholic alternative to total abstinence when prudence dictates non-pregnancy. Viewed in that light, it’s not so bad!

As you allude to, both contraception and maturbation violate the purpose of sexual union in the first place. I think HV is right, but that doesn’t mean it explains things perfectly. One of the problems (IMO) is that it suggests a substantial difference between the unitive and procreative facets of human sexuality in such a way as to almost invite thinking of them as separate topics. They aren’t. They are no more separate than different facets of a diamond. You can’t intentionally cut off one facet of a diamond and not damage the beauty of the other. Human sexuality is a tangled up, messy, beautiful and wonderful thing within the bounds of chastity. But like almost all good things, it can be warped and made harmful. Contraception (and mutual masturbation) changes what the sexual encounter between man and wife IS. It subtly removes the self-giving aspect while growing the selfish aspect.

You can find plenty of catholics who disagree with the church. And that group will have divorce rates absolutely no different from the general public at large. I’ve been married 15 years and seen the carnage in my secular and lukewarm catholic friends over and over. I also have dozens of friends who have from the beginning of their marriage accepted church teaching on the subject and done their best to be faithful to it. Know how many of them are divorced? None.

None.