What 10 Priests Say About Contraception

[glendab]

Hello Jaa.

It’s not only me. I talked to many people, I observer, … it’s a fact to me.
Fine, you can ignore my testimony. The fact is I put it forward to you, it’s as real as it gets.
It’s your choice what you do with it.

It would be interesting if there was a big poll about that. What thousands of people would say.

It wouldn’t matter one flip what ten thousand people said in a poll or a million for that matter. The Church is not a democracy it is silly to think that way. Doctrine isn’t formulated upon public opinion or changeable like the seasons. Contraception is an unacceptable practice for Catholics and for all person actually and we cannot nor will not change that no matter how many people say, like you it is acceptable because doing without sex is unhealthy.

glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Pug.

Perhaps you mean there is some study that says it does it some percent of the time? What percent is that?

My mom took the Pill. There was nothing even remotely Catholic about my upbringing nor the environment I lived in until I was much older. In my teen years as part of my little “talk” from dear old mom was a trip to the doctor’s office where the Pill was explained to me. I was told among other things that the little white pills in the cute little dial pack would bring my period on and if I was pregnant at that time it would cause stronger cramps then usual but that it would be okay and I’d feel fine once I got back to the little yellow pills in the pack. If I didn’t, my mom should call him and let him know (the doc prescribing that is). Because I might need to be examined if that happened. (which I now know would’ve been to see if I did indeed pass a baby and part or all of it was left where they didn’t want it.) I was 15 at the time and when I got home my dad having been informed of the little “talk” now being complete added at the dinner table that this was in no way a permission to have sex, they just wanted me to be smart about it because they weren’t ready for grandbabies just yet. I declined the offer of the pill, not so much because I viewed it the way I view it now, but because being a teenager I didn’t really think I’d be able to remember to take it every day and didn’t want my mom to bother me about it. It seemed an invasion of my privacy somehow. I’m very glad I didn’t considering the health problems it causes. My mom and dad thought they were doing the best thing for me by giving me the little “talk” and they believed they were doing right by themselves by subscribing to contraception in their marriage. They were both wrong. May they rest in peace. There was no study presented to me at that time. The doctor prescribing knew they had an abortifacent effect if conception occurred. It gets down played these days but if you really need stats, go to Priests For Life . org and they have facts galore.

Glenda

 

[Mark121359]

Hello BBen.
It wouldn’t matter if only ten Priests out of all the Priests in the USA agreed with Church teaching that contraception is morally reprehensible and cannot be reconciled to living an authentic married life, whether Catholic or not, for anyone. The Church is not a democracy and if they voted on it and the 10 faithful Priests were out numbered, it wouldn’t change the teaching of the Church on this issue. It would only prove there are only 10 faithful Priests left in the country. So, the numbers crunch in this regard is simply showing how many may be faithful in this matter and thusly can be trusted to remain faithful in other matters. If I were on the fence about the whole contraception issue it might be helpful to help me hop off on the right side, but if I need to go with the flow and the majority said “Go ahead, contracept. God will understand your needs and fears,” and I used this as my excuse, then I’d be as wrong as all those in the majority.

Glenda

Hello Jaa.
It wouldn’t matter one flip what ten thousand people said in a poll or a million for that matter. The Church is not a democracy it is silly to think that way. Doctrine isn’t formulated upon public opinion or changeable like the seasons. Contraception is an unacceptable practice for Catholics and for all person actually and we cannot nor will not change that no matter how many people say, like you it is acceptable because doing without sex is unhealthy.

glenda

:thumbsup:Amen to both of these excellent and to the point posts, Glenda! By reading these many posts on here, one certainly could get the feeling that many Catholics believe that the Church ***is *** a democracy. Heck…I work with Catholics who believe this! By the way, I enjoy reading your truth-filled posts!

---

Peace, Mark***

 

[Pug]

Hello Pug.

My mom took the Pill. There was nothing even remotely Catholic about my upbringing nor the environment I lived in until I was much older. In my teen years as part of my little “talk” from dear old mom was a trip to the doctor’s office where the Pill was explained to me. I was told among other things that the little white pills in the cute little dial pack would bring my period on and if I was pregnant at that time it would cause stronger cramps then usual but that it would be okay and I’d feel fine once I got back to the little yellow pills in the pack. If I didn’t, my mom should call him and let him know (the doc prescribing that is). Because I might need to be examined if that happened. (which I now know would’ve been to see if I did indeed pass a baby and part or all of it was left where they didn’t want it.) I was 15 at the time and when I got home my dad having been informed of the little “talk” now being complete added at the dinner table that this was in no way a permission to have sex, they just wanted me to be smart about it because they weren’t ready for grandbabies just yet. I declined the offer of the pill, not so much because I viewed it the way I view it now, but because being a teenager I didn’t really think I’d be able to remember to take it every day and didn’t want my mom to bother me about it. It seemed an invasion of my privacy somehow. I’m very glad I didn’t considering the health problems it causes. My mom and dad thought they were doing the best thing for me by giving me the little “talk” and they believed they were doing right by themselves by subscribing to contraception in their marriage. They were both wrong. May they rest in peace. There was no study presented to me at that time. The doctor prescribing knew they had an abortifacent effect if conception occurred. It gets down played these days but if you really need stats, go to Priests For Life . org and they have facts galore.

Glenda

I didn’t have a great experience with those parental talks ask a child, either! I’m glad you had the strength as a child to refuse the pill. I understand why you considered it invasive. My parents gave me a talk about abortion instead, like where the abortion clinic was, and told me not to talk to them about it. Looking back, it is sad.

I’ll check out the site you mention. Since I know people can have a baby while on the pill (witness “our fourth child was a mistake”) I figure it must be some kind of percentage.

 

[manualman]

Contraception is an inanimate object. It can’t possibly be responsible for causing anything on its own.

True enough, which is why there is no moral problem with the use of the SAME hormone used for contraception when it is used to address actual medical problems (such as excessive bleeding, IIRC). The sin isn’t in using the “bad” chemical, the sin is the desire to render the sexual intimacy sterile. It changes what the encounter IS.

You are correct to note that contraception is not some sort of “uber-sin” in a class like no other, a sort of nuclear sin that obliterates all around it when used even once. It’s more like a lie. Nothing SEEMS to happen, but subtle damage is done to the relationship, even once. But the damage is cumulative over time. The lies add up and the damage compounds.

 

[Kelfa28]

Well, the divorce rate in couples using NFP is virtually non-existent…May I coin a phrase?

ABSTINENCE MAKES TWO HEARTS GROW FONDER!

No, not really.

NFP is not the reason why these couples rarely divorce. I highly doubt there is ever just one reason for types of statistics.

There are a large combination of reason why these couples never divorce. Couple who practice NFP are more devote in their practice of Catholicism. They tend both agree with Church teachings, they tend to be virgins until Marriage and they tend to be more educated in general. All huge contributing factors to single digit divorce rates.

BTW, this is coming from a devote Catholic who practices NFP.

I appreciate the article provided. It’s a topic that is rarely ever addressed by Priests or the laity in general.
I’ve been totally immersed in my life as a Catholic for the past 3 years…going to Mass, joining different groups and attending lectures whenever I can. Without counting anything I’ve read on CAF…I’ve only heard contraception discussed 6 times out of all of those lectures, homilies and discussions with Catholic friends.

I remember because it’s so rare for it to be brought up that it catches my attention every time it is.

I remember hearing contraception was wrong in one homily (nothing elaborated on further).

Again, I heard contraception being wrong in a lecture given at a WOG meeting (nothing elaborated further).

I remember NFP being mentioned once, in that we should be practicing it and not contraception, at another lecture given at our Parish (nothing elaborated further).

I had a discussion about it with my Parish priest just before the Easter Vigil. It was a private discussion and he was great and explained all of the questions I had about Catholic marriage and contraception and why it’s wrong. I really wished he gave the discussion to a crowd.

A friend of mine brought it up…basically joking that NFP doesn’t work in her household hence the 6 kids she has…

And finally, it was brought up at our marriage prep retreat. It was briefly discussed that we should be using NFP but they didn’t mention why the Church teaches what it teaches about contraception (hence my private discussion I had with my parish Priest later). Pamphlets were handed out about local classes and the basics behind NFP.

It amazes me that so little information about NFP circulated in the Catholic world and that it’s usually dismissed as something that just doesn’t work.
Really?
How many of these people making these claims have actually used it?

Is abstinence hard?

It can be…but it’s not torturous and it’s not impossible. My husband and I pretty much a hands off each other policy when it comes to my fertile part of the cycle. If things start progressing too far when it comes to kissing and where are hands are on each other…someone always stops and says “don’t start what you can’t finish!”

We can sleep next to each other just fine, we can kiss each other and hug each other and cuddle on the couch without this overwhelming need to take it to the next level.

We are waiting to have child number 3 and for good reason.

 

[Brendan_64]

There are a large combination of reason why these couples never divorce. Couple who practice NFP are more devote in their practice of Catholicism. They tend both agree with Church teachings, they tend to be virgins until Marriage and** they tend to be more educated in general**. All huge contributing factors to single digit divorce rates.

The part in bold would not appear to be the case at all. Devout Catholics do not tend to come mainly from the educated middle-classes. The educated middle-classes tend to be far more liberal in outlook that those less affluent. The Catholic Church thrives in less affluent demographics, whereas in more affluent areas it seems to be dying. This seems to apply both internationally and within nations.

 

[Jaaanosik]

… we are not called to make our decisions in order not to make our life tougher.
…

We can make any decisions that do not lead to immoral acts.

How it was determined that the contraception is always immoral?
The HV states that it’s based on the natural law. Please, do you know how to explain the natural law that lead to this statement?

 

[Jaaanosik]

Yeah, right. You find taking a walk and being intimate with your wife to be roughly equally profound experiences of being human. Sure. I actually hope you’re being deliberately obtuse, because if you’re serious, just. wow.

I am serious. This is in the relationship to the natural law that should lead to the statement that the contraception is always immoral.
It’s demanded to have sex in the natural way all the time but it’s not demanded to walk in the natural way all the time.
Please, explain the double standard.

… or do you talk to your wife face to face all the time?
How come it’s OK to use phone to talk to loved ones?

Why the double standard?

 

[Jaaanosik]

…
In Catholic terms, as well as its human purpose, intercourse between a man and woman is an expression of communion in the divine sense.
…

This is the trouble!
If NFP does not work for a couple then they are denied this for like ‘forever’?
Sorry guys, the abstinence is the only option. Hard luck.

 

[Corki]

This is the trouble!
If NFP does not work for a couple then they are denied this for like ‘forever’?
Sorry guys, the abstinence is the only option. Hard luck.

It’s not supposed to be “forever”. Even NFP isn’t supposed to be “forever”. It’s a sacrifice that a couple makes to delay a child for a good reason. Hopefully, the reason that prevents them from having another child goes away soon - whether it is health, finances, other obligations, etc.

But you are right. The whole reason to use NFP is as an alternative to long-term abstinence. Which is better - periodic short-term abstinence or long-term abstinence? Your approach is backwards, however. You don’t take on abstinence because NFP doesn’t work; you take on NFP because you don’t want to be continent for a longer time.

One of the problems with having this argument and what makes it circular is a completely different understanding about children. The Catholic position is that children are a blessing and you don’t prevent more blessings unless you have a really good reason. The objective good is children. For others, children are not an objective good. They are only a relative good in the context of a family. If that is your construct, the dynamic (size, expendable income, etc) is more important.

The normal “default” position for a married couple is to have sex, whenever desired and to lovingly accept the children that result.

 

[LongingSoul]

This is the trouble!
If NFP does not work for a couple then they are denied this for like ‘forever’?
Sorry guys, the abstinence is the only option. Hard luck.

What do you mean by ‘If NFP does not work for a couple’? I’m not sure if you are meaning that they are having trouble coping with the normal period of abstinence that may be necessary during any given month or they can’t identify their fertile period at all?

I know there are times in my marriage where to be certain of avoiding pregnancy we had to give the fertile period a very wide berth of perhaps skip the post ovulation phase altogether that month. My mum told me they had an extended period of abstinence during her menopause but generally there wouldn’t be a situation of lifelong abstinence other than when you try for a baby.

 

[Jaaanosik]

What do you mean by ‘If NFP does not work for a couple’? I’m not sure if you are meaning that they are having trouble coping with the normal period of abstinence that may be necessary during any given month or they can’t identify their fertile period at all?

I know there are times in my marriage where to be certain of avoiding pregnancy we had to give the fertile period a very wide berth of perhaps skip the post ovulation phase altogether that month. My mum told me they had an extended period of abstinence during her menopause but generally there wouldn’t be a situation of lifelong abstinence other than when you try for a baby.

Whatever reason, NFP does not work for everybody.
On what merit those couples are denied all those great things you described in your previous post.

 

[LongingSoul]

Whatever reason, NFP does not work for everybody.
On what merit those couples are denied all those great things you described in your previous post.

The reason I’m asking you to give concrete examples of how NFP ‘does not work’ is to see what the term NFP means to you. See NFP is not a particular product or scheme, it is a wider philosophy of conjugal life. Its like you are saying ‘healthy eating doesn’t work for everybody’ or ‘dental hygeine doesn’t work for everybody’. The purpose of NFP is to maintain the wholesome function of something that serves the marriage, family and the body of humanity.

It would be pointless to say that those people that can’t eat healthy food should be entitled to a diet of junk food so that they too can have the benefits of a healthy life. It doesn’t make sense right.

NFP is a philosophy of working to Gods plan for conjugal love.

 

[Jaaanosik]

The reason I’m asking you to give concrete examples of how NFP ‘does not work’ is to see what the term NFP means to you. See NFP is not a particular product or scheme, it is a wider philosophy of conjugal life. Its like you are saying ‘healthy eating doesn’t work for everybody’ or ‘dental hygeine doesn’t work for everybody’. The purpose of NFP is to maintain the wholesome function of something that serves the marriage, family and the body of humanity.

It would be pointless to say that those people that can’t eat healthy food should be entitled to a diet of junk food so that they too can have the benefits of a healthy life. It doesn’t make sense right.

NFP is a philosophy of working to Gods plan for conjugal love.

NFP does not work as unable to identify the fertile and infertile days.

 

[LongingSoul]

NFP does not work as unable to identify the fertile and infertile days.

Ok now this is a fixable problem not a chronic one. With the help of NFP instruction, no one should be unable to find safe days within the month. Being open to little surprises is part of being married, but in those times when we discern it would be unwise to fall pregnant for serious reasons, being a little more cautious is the order of the day. Peri-menopause can be such a time as women in their late 40’s/early 50’s begin to suffer the ailments of age ie. high blood pressure, knee and joint arthritis, as well as supporting their children who are beginning to marry and produce grandchildren. This time might involve very cautious use of safe days. Still it doesn’t mean complete abstinence. As I said previously, normally couples are advised to wait 12 months after the last period to be sure that the menopause is complete. This might mean an extended abstinence, but once the green light is on, it’s all systems go 'til you want to stop.

This is an education issue.

 

[Brendan_64]

We can make any decisions that do not lead to immoral acts.

How it was determined that the contraception is always immoral?

Our Church has indeed determined that contraception is sinful. That is what our Church clearly teaches.

The function of sexual intercourse is to create life, the pleasure that arises from the act itself is a secondary side effect. however we now live in a society where the pleasure arising from sex is seen as its prime function. The Church opposes contraception because it aims to prevent conception. The very act of contraception (be it artificial, withdrawal etc.) seeks to prevent the coming into being of a new life. This acts against God’s creative will and treats the creation of human life as an unwanted and undesirable potential side-effect of the sexual act. This is contrary to Church teaching. Paul VI made this clear in Humanae Vitae.

John Paul II wrote a lot on this matter in Evangelium Vitae explaining that contraception contributes to the culture of death. He stated that contraception and abortion are very closely connected, as ‘fruits of the same tree’ and highlighted powerful connections between them. Chemical abortifacients and abortive intrauterine devices are distributed as easily as contraceptives and this results in a blurring of their difference in the public’s mind.The psychological self-centred concept of ‘freedom’ resulting from a contraceptive mentality, where conception is viewed as an unwanted ‘side-effect’ of sexual intercourse, can reinforce an abortive mentality within society. The use of contraception results in a culture that increasingly accepts abortion.

 

[glendab]

Hello Jaa.

We can make any decisions that do not lead to immoral acts.

How it was determined that the contraception is always immoral?
The HV states that it’s based on the natural law. Please, do you know how to explain the natural law that lead to this statement?

How is it determined? Here is the account of Onan and Tamar in the O.T. In it Onan, contracepts via coitus interruptus and it is in this act that the Church found the phrase Onanism which usually refers to sexual sins and has expanded over the years to include more than simply coitus interruptus. Please note that God took Onan’s life for this sin. Certainly a deadly one.

Genesis 38:6-10

6 Judah got a wife named Tamar for his firstborn, Er. 7 But Er, Judah’s firstborn, greatly offended the LORD; so the LORD took his life. 8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Have intercourse with your brother’s wife, in fulfillment of your duty as brother-in-law, and thus preserve your brother’s line.” 9 Onan, however, knew that the offspring would not be his; so* whenever he had intercourse with his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground*,** to avoid giving offspring to his brother**. 10 What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too.

usccb.org/bible/genesis/38

Hope this helps.

Glenda

 

[Jaaanosik]

Ok now this is a fixable problem not a chronic one. With the help of NFP instruction, no one should be unable to find safe days within the month. Being open to little surprises is part of being married, but in those times when we discern it would be unwise to fall pregnant for serious reasons, being a little more cautious is the order of the day. Peri-menopause can be such a time as women in their late 40’s/early 50’s begin to suffer the ailments of age ie. high blood pressure, knee and joint arthritis, as well as supporting their children who are beginning to marry and produce grandchildren. This time might involve very cautious use of safe days. Still it doesn’t mean complete abstinence. As I said previously, normally couples are advised to wait 12 months after the last period to be sure that the menopause is complete. This might mean an extended abstinence, but once the green light is on, it’s all systems go 'til you want to stop.

This is an education issue.

That’s an unqualified arbitrary statement. You don’t know if it’s fixable issue.
It seems you assume ideal unrealistic world.
It’s not enough what married couples on the HV commission said, what many people say now.
All of us are just uneducated dummies.
Thank you.

 

[Jaaanosik]

Our Church has indeed determined that contraception is sinful. That is what our Church clearly teaches.

The function of sexual intercourse is to create life,

The HV emphasizes the way how to have sex. The HV procreation definition is all about that. To create life is not understood as procreative in the HV.

the pleasure that arises from the act itself is a secondary side effect. however we now live in a society where the pleasure arising from sex is seen as its prime function. The Church opposes contraception because it aims to prevent conception.

The NFP aims to prevent conception as well. There is nothing wrong with that.

The very act of contraception (be it artificial, withdrawal etc.) seeks to prevent the coming into being of a new life. This acts against God’s creative will and treats the creation of human life as an unwanted and undesirable potential side-effect of the sexual act. This is contrary to Church teaching. Paul VI made this clear in Humanae Vitae.

God does not intend to create a new life each time married couples have sex.
The Church recognizes it as well therefore we have NFP.
So what is the problem? The way how it’s achieved.
Back to the question. How do we know that one way is moral and the other way is immoral?
How do we know that using condoms is immoral. What is the natural law behind it?

John Paul II wrote a lot on this matter in Evangelium Vitae explaining that contraception contributes to the culture of death. He stated that contraception and abortion are very closely connected, as ‘fruits of the same tree’ and highlighted powerful connections between them. Chemical abortifacients and abortive intrauterine devices are distributed as easily as contraceptives and this results in a blurring of their difference in the public’s mind.The psychological self-centred concept of ‘freedom’ resulting from a contraceptive mentality, where conception is viewed as an unwanted ‘side-effect’ of sexual intercourse, can reinforce an abortive mentality within society. The use of contraception results in a culture that increasingly accepts abortion.

The NFP couples preventing conception might see a new life as unwanted ‘side-effect’ as well.
The issue is that the Church pretends it sees into the hearts of the married couples and that by definition they say it’s not unwanted ‘side-effect’.
In whatever way the NFP couple accepts unplanned baby the same way a couple using condoms can accept the baby as well.
Only God sees into the hearts of married couples.