What a Beautiful Millennium. (NOT!)

[spauline]

I agree that Catholics don’t care about the apocalypse. They never respond to these threads.

And why?

Because, for them anyway, we are in a wonderful, beautiful, glorious Millennium in which Jesus is reigning on earth spiritually on earth through the Catholic Church. ( )

So, let us rejoice and build Augustine’s City of God!

(But nevermind the secular apostasy that is sending humanity to hell in a hand basket, and the impending nuclear holocaust prophesied by Fatima.
Let’s just bask in the wonderful world of preterism and Scott Hahnism, “Oh what a wonderful liturgical book the Apocalypse is. I got so excited about how most of the book is already fulfilled in the first century. Oh how beautiful that we are now in a vague Millennium until the Lamb’s Supper at the end of time. And who really cares about ANY of those questions because they don’t matter, no one knows the day or hour, therefore, we were never meant to know or ask ANYTHING at all, so stop this apocalyptic nonsense and just live for the day. And don’t forget to let me loan you Scott Hahn, you’ll learn so much and love it dearly”.)

[sic]

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Hi

ummmm, please forgive me if this comes off as harsh - it’s not how I intended.

While I have read some of your work, and agree with it (for whatever that’s worth ) I’ve also read Scotts work and agree with that (again ), concerning the book of Revelations. There is Truth too in Daniel, Revelations, and Ezekiel, and Jeremiah concerning what is to come. Not specific always, and not blow by blow (in some cases), but it is there - so we recognize the signs of the times and not be deceived.

I think most people kinda blow it all off, because all we need do is recognize where we are at - and keep our spiritual life as healthy as possible - which we should be doing anyway. The rest will come in due time, and there’s nothing we can do about it.

Many many protestants (of which I was one) fixate on this to the point of exclusion - what else do they have to fixate on? The rest of the Bible is irrelevant aside from John 3:16.

A casualty of that is, a lot of the time, depression. (So many people - so little time) They can bang out verse after verse - but all they accomplish is either confusion - because the Scriptures pertaining to this aren’t real clear (in the literal sense) and that, coupled with the spiritual emptiness ( for lack of a better wording,maybe a feeling of being ‘incomplete’, missing something?)and further confusion brought on by the O.S.A.S and other goofy doctrines, leaves people open to further deception, and depression. (oppression?)

So people here, Catholic people - just don’t worry about it - apart from a personal readiness, which for them is the second coming - rather than the one spoken of in Scripture.

I still slip back into the apocalyptic thinking now and then - it’s fun, and challenging - but just, for the most part, mental masturbation. Jesus told us all we need to know - the rest is (in my opinion at least) something not real important. Because the second coming is coming for all of us, in our lifetime, and that’s what matters most.

Peace

John

 

[spauline]

Hi

ummmm, please forgive me if this comes off as harsh - it’s not how I intended.

While I have read some of your work, and agree with it (for whatever that’s worth ) I’ve also read Scotts work and agree with that (again ), concerning the book of Revelations. There is Truth too in Daniel, Revelations, and Ezekiel, and Jeremiah concerning what is to come. Not specific always, and not blow by blow (in some cases), but it is there - so we recognize the signs of the times and not be deceived.

I think most people kinda blow it all off, because all we need do is recognize where we are at - and keep our spiritual life as healthy as possible - which we should be doing anyway. The rest will come in due time, and there’s nothing we can do about it.

Many many protestants (of which I was one) fixate on this to the point of exclusion - what else do they have to fixate on? The rest of the Bible is irrelevant aside from John 3:16.

A casualty of that is, a lot of the time, depression. (So many people - so little time) They can bang out verse after verse - but all they accomplish is either confusion - because the Scriptures pertaining to this aren’t real clear (in the literal sense) and that, coupled with the spiritual emptiness ( for lack of a better wording,maybe a feeling of being ‘incomplete’, missing something?)and further confusion brought on by the O.S.A.S and other goofy doctrines, leaves people open to further deception, and depression. (oppression?)

So people here, Catholic people - just don’t worry about it - apart from a personal readiness, which for them is the second coming - rather than the one spoken of in Scripture.

I still slip back into the apocalyptic thinking now and then - it’s fun, and challenging - but just, for the most part, mental masturbation. Jesus told us all we need to know - the rest is (in my opinion at least) something not real important. Because the second coming is coming for all of us, in our lifetime, and that’s what matters most.

Peace

John

The questions I am pondering are not the same as Fundamentalism, nor am I plagued by OSAS or other serious heresies, because I am Catholic.

I think the meaning of Salvation history and spiritual psychology and theology of it needs to be examined to a greater degree if we are to fully understand the modern crisis and have hope for the future. I think the types of questions that I ponder, the real apocalyptic questions from the Catholic Tradition, are much more urgent in previous eras and need to be more deeply considered in order to more fully engage dialogue with other Christians.

I think I am largely misunderstood. In a certain sense, I am chastising my fellow brethren for an indifference that is both ignorant and in the end counterproductive to reach out in the fullest capacity especially to evangelicals. I think the Church needs to consider better ways to respond to the Fundamentalist concern than to wave their hands towards preterism and mere liturgy.

IOW, I believe that as the world becomes more apostate and the questions more urgent, the typical Catholic dismissive response will become more and more inadequate in addressing the concerns of our more conservative separated brothers and sisters.

 

[notsmart]

Isn’t it true that the world becoming more apostate is a sign the end is closer? So, all we can do is pray. What else can we do?
We are going to have to punt. We may not have a stable place to worship in not too far off from now. Christianity could be very persecuted worldwide and force christians into hiding like in china and russia, and elsewhere. Eventually, there will be confusion, no central authority to reach all the members, or maybe any of them. The few left, may fight and schism amoung themselves, and then there could be a total apostacy. I think there only needs to be one good man left for everything to work out. I don’t think what was done on the Cross can be undone- and there has to be at least one person left that has perservered to the end when Christ comes again. I think anyway

 

[spauline]

Isn’t it true that the world becoming more apostate is a sign the end is closer? So, all we can do is pray. What else can we do?
We are going to have to punt. We may not have a stable place to worship in not too far off from now. Christianity could be very persecuted worldwide and force christians into hiding like in china and russia, and elsewhere. Eventually, there will be confusion, no central authority to reach all the members, or maybe any of them. The few left, may fight and schism amoung themselves, and then there could be a total apostacy. I think there only needs to be one good man left for everything to work out. I don’t think what was done on the Cross can be undone- and there has to be at least one person left that has perservered to the end when Christ comes again. I think anyway

first of all, the question is not “when [literally] will the Second Coming occur.” This is the first problem that exasperates me.

The apocalypse is not the study of “when” Christ returns. It is the study of the psychology and theology of salvation history, the greater ages of the Redemption of humanity, and their meaning.

secondly, I don’t see our current time as the end. We are in an apostasy, but it will be healed, if the mystics are correct. But only probably from a heiny whipping.

 

[notsmart]

first of all, the question is not “when [literally] will the Second Coming occur.” This is the first problem that exasperates me.

I see it as the beggining of the final stages to the end.

 

[spauline]

I see it as the beggining of the final stages to the end.

the supreme darkness is already here. How do we get any worse spiritually? Either it is healed, or the end is upon us.

But what religion are you?

 

[notsmart]

the supreme darkness is already here. How do we get any worse spiritually? Either it is healed, or the end is upon us.

But what religion are you?

I am unbaptised, investigating catholic faith, but I have complications.

Anyway, yes- darkness is here, always has been to a lesser degree possibly, or at times greater depending who you ask (ask the Jews- they may say the greatest darkness was the holocost? Dunno- severe persecution ect. many who dont practice, ect)

I dont know what you mean by how can we get any worse spiritually? Of course you are kidding?

We can get much worse.

My point about all we need is one good man, is that most catholics will say that man will be the bishop of rome.

I think it could be some faithful layperson. Who, understands that this will not mean the gates of hell have prevailed, because that one man will never give in.

 

[spauline]

I am unbaptised, investigating catholic faith, but I have complications.

Anyway, yes- darkness is here, always has been to a lesser degree possibly, or at times greater depending who you ask (ask the Jews- they may say the greatest darkness was the holocost? Dunno- severe persecution ect. many who dont practice, ect)

I dont know what you mean by how can we get any worse spiritually? Of course you are kidding?

We can get much worse.

My point about all we need is one good man, is that most catholics will say that man will be the bishop of rome.

I think it could be some faithful layperson. Who, understands that this will not mean the gates of hell have prevailed, because that one man will never give in.

I mean the gravity of the darkness, not its extent, cannot get any worse. Atheistic and relativistic secular messianism are utterly depraved. There is no darkness worse than these that can remain deceptive.

Obviously, the darkness could grow in extent, such as in Africa, where the Gospel is doing well in many places.

My point is, the darkness in its essence is supreme. Not its EXTENT, but its ESSENCE.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Catholics not responding to some of these threads is not because they don’t care about the apocalypse, it’s probably because of the hostile tone that you come across with, the “my way or the highway” attitude. It does not give much incentive.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

The questions I am pondering are not the same as Fundamentalism, nor am I plagued by OSAS or other serious heresies, because I am Catholic.

I think the meaning of Salvation history and spiritual psychology and theology of it needs to be examined to a greater degree if we are to fully understand the modern crisis and have hope for the future. I think the types of questions that I ponder, the real apocalyptic questions from the Catholic Tradition, are much more urgent in previous eras and need to be more deeply considered in order to more fully engage dialogue with other Christians.

I think I am largely misunderstood. In a certain sense, I am chastising my fellow brethren for an indifference that is both ignorant and in the end counterproductive to reach out in the fullest capacity especially to evangelicals. I think the Church needs to consider better ways to respond to the Fundamentalist concern than to wave their hands towards preterism and mere liturgy.

IOW, I believe that as the world becomes more apostate and the questions more urgent, the typical Catholic dismissive response will become more and more inadequate in addressing the concerns of our more conservative separated brothers and sisters.

I did not mean to come across as saying you were anything but a Catholic - again, my apologies.

I was using fundamentalism as the example not too many want to imitate. That most Catholics - apparently - have no use for the preoccupation with the apocalypse in general, as opposed to the denominations who are fixated, for the most part, on it.

I kind of disagree that the dismissive response is counter-productive. Those days will be apparent, I feel, and what is needed most is the strong stance of the Truth. (Ephesians ch 6) Simply because - while the chaos reigns, Catholics will be secure in the Truth, that in itself is always the best witness.

Then too, if you know your Apocalypse, those faithful will be martyred, and based upon the history of martyrs, there was never a better witness to the power of God through His faithful.

Peace

John

 

[annem]

But nevermind the secular apostasy that is sending humanity to hell in a hand basket, and the impending nuclear holocaust prophesied by Fatima.
Let’s just bask in the wonderful world of preterism and Scott Hahnism

I am afraid you are right, right, right about the secular apostasy that is sending humanity to hell in a hand basket.

I just read a report about Spain where 3 out of 4 marriages end in divorce–and that’s of the relationships that actually end in marriage. It’s all so heart breaking.

But when was there a time when the world wasn’t in dire trouble? Every time I pick up a book on the life of a saint, I am always sickened by apostasy they had to live through.

Why do you think our times are much worse than any other time?

God bless, Annem

 

[spauline]

I am afraid you are right, right, right about the secular apostasy that is sending humanity to hell in a hand basket.

I just read a report about Spain where 3 out of 4 marriages end in divorce–and that’s of the relationships that actually end in marriage. It’s all so heart breaking.

But when was there a time when the world wasn’t in dire trouble? Every time I pick up a book on the life of a saint, I am always sickened by apostasy they had to live through.

Why do you think our times are much worse than any other time?

God bless, Annem

because this isn’t the history I learned.

Has the Church always had problems? Yes, of course.

But the world has not been in secular apostasy for 1700 years.

Muslims caused problems, but Muslims are not secular apostates.

The schismatics caused problems, but they are not secular apostates.

The heretics caused problems. But the heretics were not secular apostates.

The infidels of the Enlightenment caused problems. They were almost completely apostate, but not quite (deists and rationalists believe in God and the natural law usually.)

But today, you have near universal secular apostate dominion in the civs that used to be traditionally Christian.

How is it then that you insinuate that since Constantine, the vast majority of Europe and her children civs have either outright denied God’s existence entirely, or are else indifferent to the question of religion?

Therefore, your assertion puzzles me?

Did they call the Middle Ages the Age of Faith for nothing?

You mean only 10% of Europe had faith from 1000 to 1500?

What sort of history are you talking about?

Perhaps you use the word apostasy lightly. Like, Arianism was an apostasy, and the Schism was an apostasy, and Protestantism was an apostasy.

IOW, degrees of truth and grace accepted are irrelevant?

That opposition to Catholicism needs no qualification: that an Orthodox might as well be approached like a hedonistic relativist?

 

[notsmart]

“My point is, the darkness in its essence is supreme. Not its EXTENT, but its ESSENCE”

Okay, I still may not be “getting it” but I did want to say this, in times past man looked to a god or God or another path to find the ultimate answers to their problems/identity/future. They saw good events as blessings and bad ones as curses from their respective god or God, or path. They mostly all had a desire to go beyond themselves for all these things.
Today, with technology and science and medicine what it is now, less and less people are crediting/blaming a god/God path- for the everyday things they once did.

Combine that with the scandals you listed in christianity, and you can see how easy the recipie is for secular humanist thought, athiest, agnostic, and just plain out apathy.

Does this mean that darkness has somehow become more dark than it was in the Garden? I dissagree.

The darkness has always been and will always be the exact opposite of God. It does not and can not grow in and of itself, but the numbers of those who embrace it can. And, even they accept and reject it to different degrees, and I do not have such a pessimistic view to think that from all OUTWARD appearances there is no light even in them.

So, we agree the extent can broaden, but you seem to hold a view that the actual darkness can broaden. I cant see how.

There can not be anything worse than the total rejection of God that Satan displayed himself. In other words, it cant get lower than that. The viel will be lifted at some point.

 

[spauline]

“My point is, the darkness in its essence is supreme. Not its EXTENT, but its ESSENCE”

Okay, I still may not be “getting it” but I did want to say this, in times past man looked to a god or God or another path to find the ultimate answers to their problems/identity/future. They saw good events as blessings and bad ones as curses from their respective god or God, or path. They mostly all had a desire to go beyond themselves for all these things.
Today, with technology and science and medicine what it is now, less and less people are crediting/blaming a god/God path- for the everyday things they once did.

Combine that with the scandals you listed in christianity, and you can see how easy the recipie is for secular humanist thought, athiest, agnostic, and just plain out apathy.

Does this mean that darkness has somehow become more dark than it was in the Garden? I dissagree.

The darkness has always been and will always be the exact opposite of God. It does not and can not grow in and of itself, but the numbers of those who embrace it can. And, even they accept and reject it to different degrees, and I do not have such a pessimistic view to think that from all OUTWARD appearances there is no light even in them.

So, we agree the extent can broaden, but you seem to hold a view that the actual darkness can broaden. I cant see how.

There can not be anything worse than the total rejection of God that Satan displayed himself. In other words, it cant get lower than that. The viel will be lifted at some point.

I can only say, go back and read the false prophet. yes, the dragon’s lies from the beginning ARE the supreme darkness, which has arisen six great times prior to the current one.

I am not saying, therefore, that the supreme darkness has not manifest itself before. Six primary times it did:

the Fall and Noah’s day
Babel
Egypt
Jewish apostasy
OT Antichrist Antiochus
Pagan Rome

Each of these stages had darkness that was supreme, and the same two primary lies, anti-Baptism (screw God and His Truth) and anti-Marriage in a spiritual sense (exalt oneself and the creation above God).

These two primary lies, as I wrote in that article, are the same lies uttered by the dragon from the beginning. There is therefore nothing new about the supreme darkness. Six times it has been before, in addition to now.

What i meant was this:

Islam is PARTIALLY dark, but by no means fully (Muslims can be saved)

The Orthodox are a little dark, but not much (Orthodox have really good chance of being saved)

Protestants have significant darkness, but also alot of light (Protestants can be saved, although it is more difficult)

Deists and Rationalists are almost completely dark, but not quite. They do seek the Divine Truth and Will, and they accept that they must live in the creation according to its order. BUT, they don’t seek revelation or help from God.

But atheism? has it any light? No. For if there is no Divine essence at all, then by way of implication, man is his own god, and the creation is his throne.

Relativism? Is there any light in it? None. For in relativism, each person is his own god. and the relativist usually places his faith in secular messianism, which is simply spiritual anti-marriage, the same lie of Babel, the same second lie of the dragon.

So, notsmart, I don’t understand why you don’t “get” that I am saying the supreme darkness is here again, for the seventh major time in history?

 

[notsmart]

But atheism? has it any light? No. For if there is no Divine essence at all, then by way of implication, man is his own god, and the creation is his throne.

Relativism? Is there any light in it? None. For in relativism, each person is his own god. and the relativist usually places his faith in secular messianism, which is simply spiritual anti-marriage, the same lie of Babel, the same second lie of the dragon.

So, notsmart, I don’t understand why you don’t “get” that I am saying the supreme darkness is here again, for the seventh major time in history?



I missed on your list, the crushing of an empire when the baby Jesus was born. That empire should be on your list also- in the times supreme darkness was manifest.

As far as your comments on atheism and relativism go, I distinguish them the way most catholics distinguish modern day protestants from say Luther himself. The modern day protestant is not doing any reforming or knowledgeable rebelling. They are invincablly ignorant, just like the atheists and secular humanists and agonostics, ect.

I am just hoping you are not saying the INDIVIDUALS who embrace these things (look back to the reasons I offer to why there is such an increase in these categories) are devoid of light.
Their dogmas may be, not them- and even in them there is to be found the GOLDEN RULE. Which I do not see as such a hopeless thing.

 

[spauline]

But atheism? has it any light? No. For if there is no Divine essence at all, then by way of implication, man is his own god, and the creation is his throne.

Relativism? Is there any light in it? None. For in relativism, each person is his own god. and the relativist usually places his faith in secular messianism, which is simply spiritual anti-marriage, the same lie of Babel, the same second lie of the dragon.

So, notsmart, I don’t understand why you don’t “get” that I am saying the supreme darkness is here again, for the seventh major time in history?



I missed on your list, the crushing of an empire when the baby Jesus was born. That empire should be on your list also- in the times supreme darkness was manifest.

As far as your comments on atheism and relativism go, I distinguish them the way most catholics distinguish modern day protestants from say Luther himself. The modern day protestant is not doing any reforming or knowledgeable rebelling. They are invincablly ignorant, just like the atheists and secular humanists and agonostics, ect.

I am just hoping you are not saying the INDIVIDUALS who embrace these things (look back to the reasons I offer to why there is such an increase in these categories) are devoid of light.
Their dogmas may be, not them- and even in them there is to be found the GOLDEN RULE. Which I do not see as such a hopeless thing.

yes, admittedly, the lies are the darkness, not the persons.

but I also though I made it clear that i absolutely sympathize with why the world has embraced these lies, and hence, I do not think that humanity is the final, that is, incurable, stage.

I absolutely sympathize that the scandal of religious divsion and bloodshed gives the modern world a partial excuse for the apostasy, and that hence, seeing the consequences of casting aside religion will, in effect, enable them to rediscover their need for God, and usher in a great period of Catholic restoration and peace.

Are you misunderstanding me that because I am interested in teh apocalypse, that therefore, I believe the end is upon us?

Again, that is a stigma, and you anger me greatly. That a person is INTERESTED in the apoc does NOT mean they think the end is upon us and that humanity has no excuse.

IN FACT, that is precisely why I say the psychology of the religious history and scandal/division/bloodshed that paved the way for the this current apostasy bears with it a call to contemplate that God sympathisizes with humanity and can yet restore them to faith.

Again, what must i do to get it straight to you: I am NOT saying the world is ending and deserves permanent judgement.

I am saying this, however, that if religion would get mixed by wrongdoing, cause scandal and divsion, leading humanity to lose faith, but in a chastisement, humanity rediscovers the Gospel, why shouldn’t this beautiful story be veiled in the meaning of human history, in much a similar manner in which the Jews grew unfaithful to the Old Cov, were chastised in the Exile, and were beautifully restored?

 

[notsmart]

yes, admittedly, the lies are the darkness, not the persons.

 

[spauline]

spauline;4162003:

agreed!

I like your list, I did add a few things to it, but in the end-
agreed! I do not think humanity is in the incurable stage either- clearly by reading my posts. I see Hope, and isnt that what the Pope sees also, in spe salvi?

I’ll somewhat agree and disagree by saying you are not generous enough by only giving the world a PARTIAL excuse. Lets add to the list of excuses an example: A devout catholic man or woman who is as smart as an encyclopedia, follows all the “rules” yet, for some reason cant connect with their spouse. Their non catholic, or non theist friends may or may not find this kind of “witnessing” to bring them to the light, even though they would reject it on that basis wrongly- they dont know that at the time they are repulsed.

I don’t think so, because you were pretty harsh earlier in asserting this very same thing.

.

Well, my priest would say pray for me if I anger you. Because he has told me to do that with someone I was angry with.

I am not angry with you though.

.

I would agree with that. And, humanity would also.

.

Yes, God can make wonderful things from the dung we come up with.

Got it!

?

I don’t know. Maybe we cant see the story because the story lies in a unborn aborted baby that would have made it more clear to us.

I say PARTIAL excuse, because only historically does the world have an excuse, but the individual apostate person could still go to hell because there is no excuse for failing to admit one’s dependency on God. Just as in the Flood, humanity is not fully culpable historically for their sin, still the unrepentant in the Flood would have gone to hell.

i will pray for you, sorry that I didn’t point that out.

I don’t understand your point about the aborted baby? Perhaps you open the can of worms that is predestination and free will. God doesn’t approve of sin. But He foresees it and ALLOWS it, because He knows He can draw a greater good from it.

Therefore, I don’t see what is hard hearted about believing that God can PREDESTINE a glorious religious restoration of the Gentiles. He clearly did it with the Jews. Why not the Gentiles? I think this is a profound mystery: God is able to use suffering that humanity brings upon themselves as a means of restoring them to grace. As in the Prodigal Son.

It is only when historically man turns away from God in such a manner that even when the consequences of their sin come, they will not repent that the world is ending.

You seem to suggest futility: man aborted his chances of restoration? Or please explain what you meant by that.

I’m sorry if I appear harsh, I am a person with passionate beliefs.

 

[notsmart]

notsmart;4162068:

I say PARTIAL excuse, because only historically

does the world have an excuse, but the individual apostate person could still go to hell because there is no excuse for failing to admit one’s dependency on God. Just as in the Flood, humanity is not fully culpable historically for their sin, still the unrepentant in the Flood would have gone to hell.

i will pray for you, sorry that I didn’t point that out.

I don’t understand your point about the aborted baby? Perhaps you open the can of worms that is predestination and free will. God doesn’t approve of sin. But He foresees it and ALLOWS it, because He knows He can draw a greater good from it.

Therefore, I don’t see what is hard hearted about believing that God can PREDESTINE a glorious religious restoration of the Gentiles. He clearly did it with the Jews. Why not the Gentiles? I think this is a profound mystery: God is able to use suffering that humanity brings upon themselves as a means of restoring them to grace. As in the Prodigal Son.

It is only when historically man turns away from God in such a manner that even when the consequences of their sin come, they will not repent that the world is ending.

You seem to suggest futility: man aborted his chances of restoration? Or please explain what you meant by that.

I’m sorry if I appear harsh, I am a person with passionate beliefs.


What I am proposing, in thought is the comparison of visible and invisible things-

God at first had to use powerful visuals for man. Man being so not ready yet for the Messiah.

After the Messiah came, suffered died, and rose as Christ

God used more invisible means of closeness to him in the sacraments.

In bringing up the aborted baby, who is INVISIBLE to us, to most of us, even us who detest with our every pore the terrible thing, we forget that this too- could be another form of communication God is having with us…

Have you ever thought of that?

the jews killed the sage prophets , we now kill the future messengers of his will we NEVER EVEN SEE