What about all the other crusades?

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dronald said:
Perhaps some context can be given on the following quote by Pope Urban II:

“I speak to those who are present, I shall proclaim it to the absent, but it is in Christ who commands. Moreover if those who set out thither lose their lives on the journey, by land or sea, or in fighting against the heathen, their sins shall be remitted in that hour; this I grant through the power of God vested in me.”

Are popes still able to do this?
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Yes.

Just like St. Paul says that he saves souls, (yes, he means that he himself, Paul, saves souls) we understand it with the same nuance.
 
PRmerger said:
Yes.

Just like St. Paul says that he saves souls, (yes, he means that he himself, Paul, saves souls) we understand it with the same nuance.
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Again, so I’m not messed up on the Catholic position here, and I want to make sure that I’m understanding Catholic beliefs properly without any ignorance…
  1. Men were ordered to fight against heathens
  2. Men who died fighting heathens shall go to Heaven sinless
  3. The Pope to this day can make such a proclamation
Everything stated there is correct?
 
dronald said:
Perhaps some context can be given on the following quote by Pope Urban II:

“I speak to those who are present, I shall proclaim it to the absent, but it is in Christ who commands. Moreover if those who set out thither lose their lives on the journey, by land or sea, or in fighting against the heathen, their sins shall be remitted in that hour; this I grant through the power of God vested in me.”

Are popes still able to do this?
Click to expand...
I have gone through 5 versions of the speech at Clermont and can’t find this quote except in one. There is no autograph of the speech as far as I know.

All documentation from the period as I mentioned above see the crusade in the cast of a pilgrimage to free the Holy Land and its peoples which is an act of penitence expressing sorrow an intent to make up for sins already repented of.

“. . . a crusade was an act of penance, that is, an action in cooperation with Gods grace (like sack cloth and ashes in the OT) that expresses that one is already truly contrite and seeks to make up and restore in the concrete circumstances of their life the order that was lost through sins.”
 
dronald said:
Again, so I’m not messed up on the Catholic position here, and I want to make sure that I’m understanding Catholic beliefs properly without any ignorance…
  1. Men were ordered to fight against heathens
  2. Men who died fighting heathens shall go to Heaven sinless
  3. The Pope to this day can make such a proclamation
Everything stated there is correct?
Click to expand...
I dispute #2 if by it you mean Urban II asserted that one can fight in a crusade and by doing so and without repentance have all their sins forgiven.
 
Fr_of_Jazz said:
I have gone through 5 versions of the speech at Clermont and can’t find this quote except in one. There is not autograph of the speech as far as I know.

All documentation from the period as I mentioned above see the crusade in the cast of a pilgrimage to free the Holy Land and its peoples which is an act of penitence expressing sorrow an intent to make up for sins already repented of.

“. . . a crusade was an act of penance, that is, an action in cooperation with Gods grace (like sack cloth and ashes in the OT) that expresses that one is already truly contrite and seeks to make up and restore in the concrete circumstances of their life the order that was lost through sins.”
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I’m not claiming to be a historian so if it is proven that he didn’t say this that would be wonderful. But everywhere I look he is quoted as saying this, even in videos that defend the Catholic position on the Crusade.

For example, I just watched this video that someone here posted today youtube.com/watch?v=RLVXRrzm0kc at 12:30 it shows that exact quote by Pope Urban II. So I assume that it’s authentic.
Fr_of_Jazz said:
I dispute #2 if by it you mean Urban II asserted that one can fight in a crusade and by doing so and without repentance have all their sins forgiven.
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Thanks, I don’t really know. Did Urban II make that clear? Did he have to?

Again, I’m just learning.
 
dronald said:
I’m not claiming to be a historian so if it is proven that he didn’t say this that would be wonderful. But everywhere I look he is quoted as saying this, even in videos that defend the Catholic position on the Crusade.

For example, I just watched this video that someone here posted today youtube.com/watch?v=RLVXRrzm0kc at 12:30 it shows that exact quote by Pope Urban II. So I assume that it’s authentic.

Thanks, I don’t really know. Did Urban II make that clear? Did he have to?

Again, I’m just learning.
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Another version says: “The most excellent man concluded his oration and by the power of the blessed Peter absolved all who vowed to go and confirmed those acts with apostolic blessing.” This would be what we would call in modern terms “general absolution.”

IOW in Catholic theology if a large number of soldiers, say, are going off to war and can’t all go to confession individually as long as they are sorry for their sins and intend to go to confession when possible, a priest there may say the prayer of absolution for them en bloc and this functions like confession. A priest friend of mine was a Navy chaplain in the both Gulf Wars and had to do this sometimes.

In Catholic and EOC theology confession is the ordinary means God has established by which the forgiveness obtained by Christ is brought into the life of repentant people down through time.
 
Fr_of_Jazz said:
Another version says: “The most excellent man concluded his oration and by the power of the blessed Peter absolved all who vowed to go and confirmed those acts with apostolic blessing.” This would be what we would call in modern terms “general absolution.”

IOW in Catholic theology if a large number of soldiers, say, are going off to war and can’t all go to confession individually as long as they are sorry for their sins and intend to go to confession when possible, a priest there may say the prayer of absolution for them en bloc and this functions like confession. A priest friend of mine was a Navy chaplain in the both Gulf Wars and had to do this sometimes.

In Catholic and EOC theology confession is the ordinary means God has established by which the forgiveness obtained by Christ is brought into the life of repentant people down through time.
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So would you say that the fighting against heathens and dying in battle had nothing to do with the remission of sins?
 
dronald said:
Again, so I’m not messed up on the Catholic position here, and I want to make sure that I’m understanding Catholic beliefs properly without any ignorance…
  1. Men were ordered to fight against heathens
  2. Men who died fighting heathens shall go to Heaven sinless
  3. The Pope to this day can make such a proclamation
Everything stated there is correct?
Click to expand...
Men were ordered to fight against heathens–yes. But who is it that you are claiming did the ordering?

As far as #2, I can’t give a qualified yes. I believe that some men who did die while fighting heathens did go to heaven sinless. (Point of fact: anyone who is in heaven is in heaven sinless.)

#3. Yes, he could.
 
dronald said:
So would you say that the fighting against heathens and dying in battle had nothing to do with the remission of sins?
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Well, as I was saying, if you mean Urban II asserted that one can fight in a crusade and by doing so and without repentance have all their sins forgiven, then yes. IOW that fighting in the crusade and not repentance inspired by the merciful grace of God is the cause of forgiveness.

But if you mean that penitential acts have nothing at all to do with the forgiveness of sins, i.e., they are in no way are involved, then I would say no. Repentance from sin not only involves sorrow for sin and the intent not to do it again, but also the intent to make up as far as possible for the damage it has done to the moral order in us and by us to others. So if I offend someone and I truly repent of that to God, that also includes intending and trying to restore if possible the damage done to the relationship. I think you can see how meaningless repentance would be without that. All sin damages oneself and others. Repentance includes trying by the help of God’s grace to repair what was lost or injured by sin.
 
dronald said:
God did through the power vested in the Pope for forgiveness of sins according to the quote I’ve posted.
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I don’t see where he ordered men to fight in the crusades.

I do see where he says their sins are forgiven. (I would think that if a priest can forgive sins, then surely a pope can, so I’m not really seeing a problem here.)

Could you please point me to where he ordered men to fight in the crusades?
 
PRmerger said:
I don’t see where he ordered men to fight in the crusades.

I do see where he says their sins are forgiven. (I would think that if a priest can forgive sins, then surely a pope can, so I’m not really seeing a problem here.)

Could you please point me to where he ordered men to fight in the crusades?
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“I speak to those who are present, I shall proclaim it to the absent, but it is in Christ who commands. Moreover if those who set out thither lose their lives on the journey, by land or sea, or in fighting against the heathen, their sins shall be remitted in that hour; this I grant through the power of God vested in me.”

If sins can be forgiven by fighting against heathens then it would stand to reason that one might take that as a divine obligation.
 
dronald said:
“I speak to those who are present, I shall proclaim it to the absent, but it is in Christ who commands. Moreover if those who set out thither lose their lives on the journey, by land or sea, or in fighting against the heathen, their sins shall be remitted in that hour; this I grant through the power of God vested in me.”

If sins can be forgiven by fighting against heathens then it would stand to reason that one might take that as a divine obligation.
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I did not see any mandate in there from the pope to fight against heathens. Only that if they do fight, their sins will be forgiven if they lose their lives in this fight.

You have, it appears, added something to the quote which is not there.

By your reasoning, it would appear that the mandate is that they must lose their lives.

Are you saying that the pope commanded that the soldiers commit suicide?
 
PRmerger said:
I did not see any mandate in there from the pope to fight against heathens. Only that if they do fight, their sins will be forgiven if they lose their lives in this fight.

You have, it appears, added something to the quote which is not there.

By your reasoning, it would appear that the mandate is that they must lose their lives.
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If I did add anything it’s unintentional. Here’s a different translation of the quote from the video defending the crusades that I watched earlier: “If anyone who sets out should lose his life either on the way, by land or by sea, or in battle against the infidels, his sins shall be pardoned from that moment. This I grant by right of the gift of God’s power to me.”

youtube.com/watch?v=RLVXRrzm0kc 12:30 in
 
dronald said:
If I did add anything it’s unintentional. Here’s a different translation of the quote from the video defending the crusades that I watched earlier: “If anyone who sets out should lose his life either on the way, by land or by sea, or in battle against the infidels, his sins shall be pardoned from that moment. This I grant by right of the gift of God’s power to me.”

youtube.com/watch?v=RLVXRrzm0kc 12:30 in
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So, then, your question becomes…what?
 
PRmerger said:
So, then, your question becomes…what?
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How losing ones life in the battle against infidels can give remission to ones sins. And if Popes can still make such a declaration. That’s been troubling me from the beginning.

Also, if a Pope did declare such a thing now, would it be reasonable to separate ones self from such a Pope?
 
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