What About Bruno? Did He Get What He Deserve?

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OrdinaryMelkite

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The “Pope’s Astronomer” thread dealt partly with Galileo and his trial and house arrest. That put me in mind of a slightly earlier case----Giordano Bruno’s execution in 1600.

So----

Was the Church justified in executing Bruno?

Personally, while I don’t think the Church was right in doing what it did, Bruno was not the Secular “Scientific Saint/Martyr” that the Left and Secular people make him out to be. He was, in fact, a major rabblerouser and heretic who advocated rebellion against Church rule.

What do you guys think?
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
Was the Church justified in executing Bruno?
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Just as a side question before you get dogpiled here … in researching the Bruno affair, I’ve been unable to find anything suggesting that he was executed by the Church. Could you direct me to some references?
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
Was the Church justified in executing Bruno?
What do you guys think?
Click to expand...
The Church did not execute Bruno. From the wiki-article:
He was quickly turned over to the secular authorities and, on February 17, 1600 in the Campo de’ Fiori, a central Roman market square, “his tongue imprisoned because of his wicked words” he was burned at the stake.
 
Bruno’s conviction for heresy was completely correct. I don’t find the method of punishment so agreeable, but that’s 16th-century Europe for you. From the Wikipedia article, these are the things he was convicted by the Holy office for:
Code: 
* Holding opinions contrary to the Catholic Faith and speaking against it and its ministers.
* Holding erroneous opinions about the Trinity, about Christ's divinity and Incarnation.
* Holding erroneous opinions about Christ.
* Holding erroneous opinions about Transubstantiation and Mass.
* Claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity.
* Believing in metempsychosis and in the transmigration of the human soul into brutes.
* Dealing in magics and divination.
* Denying the Virginity of Mary.
I don’t see anything about “believing in science and the empirical method” here. People were not executed for heliocentrism. The Inquisition actually turned over an extremely law amount of people to the secular authorities, and those were always the ones with the most dangerous heresies. Statistically speaking, the United States has executed more people in the last 50 years than the Roman Inquisition in its entire existence.
 
Copernican Theory was not a crime. Copernicus was in fact much appreciated and liked by Pope Clement VII.

Bruno was executed by secular authorities for his heinous theological views. Whilst it is regrettable that anyone is executed for any reason; it was the norm in those times to be executed for such villany.

Bruno was fairly given an opportunity to recant by the Doctor of the Church Saint Robert Bellarmine; but he refused to; and was handed over to the state; which put him to death.
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
The “Pope’s Astronomer” thread dealt partly with Galileo and his trial and house arrest. That put me in mind of a slightly earlier case----Giordano Bruno’s execution in 1600.

So----

Was the Church justified in executing Bruno?

Personally, while I don’t think the Church was right in doing what it did, Bruno was not the Secular “Scientific Saint/Martyr” that the Left and Secular people make him out to be. He was, in fact, a major rabblerouser and heretic who advocated rebellion against Church rule.

What do you guys think?
Click to expand...
Bruno’s only crime was to say something the Church didn’t like. That’s the only wrongdoing he was guilty of.
 
Apollos said:
Yeah, umm … “Bruno was declared a heretic, and told he would be handed over to secular authorities.” I am too tired to debate this, but … please quit saying “The Church” killed people.
Click to expand...
Friend, I only provided the information requested. It was properly parsed by Fermat, and others.
 
awatkins69 said:
Statistically speaking, the United States has executed more people in the last 50 years than the Roman Inquisition in its entire existence.
Click to expand...
You are totally wrong.

The official statistic puts the US capital punishment death count to 1226 since 1976. That’s only 34 years - but lets say the execution rate was 15 % higher in those previous 16 years (I don’t think it was) - that would put the body count to roughly 2000.

According to Henry Kamen’s Spanish Inquisition Inquisition in Spain executed roughly 2000 people (mostly Jews) between 1480 and 1530 (also 50 years). And that’s only 50 years in 16th century Spain - on a population 20 times smaller than that of contemporary USA.
 
awatkins69 said:
Bruno’s conviction for heresy was completely correct.
Click to expand...
???
awatkins69 said:
I don’t find the method of punishment so agreeable, but that’s 16th-century Europe for you. From the Wikipedia article, these are the things he was convicted by the Holy office for:
Code: 
* Holding opinions contrary to the Catholic Faith and speaking against it and its ministers.
* Holding erroneous opinions about the Trinity, about Christ's divinity and Incarnation.
* Holding erroneous opinions about Christ.
* Holding erroneous opinions about Transubstantiation and Mass.
* Claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity.
* Believing in metempsychosis and in the transmigration of the human soul into brutes.
* Dealing in magics and divination.
* Denying the Virginity of Mary.
Click to expand...
Should these things be punishable crimes?

Sure the Church still thinks that heresy is a sin just as abortion is a sin, but if the church could be wrong about whether heresy ought to be punished as crime, it can be wrong about whether abortion ought to be punished as a crime.
 
Apollos said:
Just as a side question before you get dogpiled here … in researching the Bruno affair, I’ve been unable to find anything suggesting that he was executed by the Church. Could you direct me to some references?
Click to expand...
Actually, I forgot-----Bruno was NOT executed by the Church. He was handed over to the civil authorities after his conviction and THEY were the ones who executed him.

Sorry about that, folks. It was late at night when I made the post and I wanted to go to sleep. And no, I don’t want to get “dogpiled.” 😃
Thanks, Apollos, for reminding me.
 
awatkins69 said:
Bruno’s conviction for heresy was completely correct. I don’t find the method of punishment so agreeable, but that’s 16th-century Europe for you. From the Wikipedia article, these are the things he was convicted by the Holy office for:
Code: 
* Holding opinions contrary to the Catholic Faith and speaking against it and its ministers.
* Holding erroneous opinions about the Trinity, about Christ's divinity and Incarnation.
* Holding erroneous opinions about Christ.
* Holding erroneous opinions about Transubstantiation and Mass.
* Claiming the existence of a plurality of worlds and their eternity.
* Believing in metempsychosis and in the transmigration of the human soul into brutes.
* Dealing in magics and divination.
* Denying the Virginity of Mary.
I don’t see anything about “believing in science and the empirical method” here. People were not executed for heliocentrism. The Inquisition actually turned over an extremely law amount of people to the secular authorities, and those were always the ones with the most dangerous heresies. Statistically speaking, the United States has executed more people in the last 50 years than the Roman Inquisition in its entire existence.
Click to expand...
I agree basically with this. The standard “narrative” that is told today is that Bruno was executed because he taught Heliocentrism.

The Church has rightfully explained its true reasons for their condemnation of Bruno (like those you stated) but unfortunately nobody wants to hear it. The Secular Scientific Left wants to keep promoting the image of the Principled, Secular Wise Man being denounced and condemned by the Evil, Repressive, Anti-Knowledge RC Church.:rolleyes:

I read a book by the former frontman for the Thompson Twins; who’s now a Science writer (Really) dealing with Bruno and his trial. Would make a great movie.
You could almost see Bellarmine and other Cardinals salivating heavily as they sentence Bruno and dramatic, tragic music playing as he is tied to the stake and supposedly refuses the Cross as it is offered to him while burning. Most one-sided work I’ve ever read. 😛
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
Actually, I forgot-----Bruno was NOT executed by the Church. He was handed over to the civil authorities after his conviction and THEY were the ones who executed him.
Click to expand...
Is there really a moral distinction here? I don’t see it. The Church convicted him of a capital offense, but since no priests actually performed the execution, the Church’s hands are clean??? Well, yeah. literally they were clean. But morally?
 
Leela said:
???

Should these things be punishable crimes?

Sure the Church still thinks that heresy is a sin just as abortion is a sin, but if the church could be wrong about whether heresy ought to be punished as crime, it can be wrong about whether abortion ought to be punished as a crime.
Click to expand...
I don’t think he is saying that Bruno’s execution was correct----just that the reason most of us have been given for his conviction and execution is NOT the real reason he was tried and convicted by the Church. Bruno’s teachings and writings stood against virtually everything the Church taught. He really WAS a Heretic.
Plus he was a member of a Secret Society that advocated subverting Church Authority and engaging in Magical rituals and Alchemy (among other things).

He was NOT executed for teaching Heliocentrism. He was executed for being, by any definition, a True Heretic.
The civil authorites executed him.

I think it was JP2 who expressed regret over Bruno’s faith-----but defended the reasons he was rightly condemned by the Church.

From the point of view of OUR time, of course many do not see that as “punishable crimes.” Certainly not as worthy of the death penalty. But. like the poster said, you are talking about another time and another place. Different views and different consequences for heresy and subverting the authority of the Church.

The abortion comparison is ludicrous and the above words show that. Abortion is a crime against Natural Law and basic Human Dignity. Not a matter of of consistently advocating a heretic and rebellious attitude towards the Church.
 
JohnDamian said:
Copernican Theory was not a crime. Copernicus was in fact much appreciated and liked by Pope Clement VII.

Bruno was executed by secular authorities for his heinous theological views. Whilst it is regrettable that anyone is executed for any reason; it was the norm in those times to be executed for such villany.

Bruno was fairly given an opportunity to recant by the Doctor of the Church Saint Robert Bellarmine; but he refused to; and was handed over to the state; which put him to death.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Thanks for the back-up.More succinct than me, too. Good show. 👍
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
From the point of view of OUR time, of course many do not see that as “punishable crimes.” Certainly not as worthy of the death penalty. But. like the poster said, you are talking about another time and another place. Different views and different consequences for heresy and subverting the authority of the Church.
Click to expand...
Spoken like a true moral relativist.

It seems to me that either it is right to convict heretics of capital offenses then and now or wrong then and now. That is, unless what is right and wrong is just a matter of cultural convention.
 
Leela said:
Is there really a moral distinction here? I don’t see it. The Church convicted him of a capital offense, but since no priests actually performed the execution, the Church’s hands are clean??? Well, yeah. literally they were clean. But morally?
Click to expand...
As stated in a post above this one, Bruno’s conviction was correct-------he really WAS guilty of the offenses against the Church and the Faith he was accused of. Was his execution by civil authorities then justified? By our time’s prespective, NO.

By the standards of that time, absolutely.
Remember, the Church could not directly shed blood. If other people did, then that was Ok. That is why the Civil Authorities executed him.

Also, burning at the stake did not include “shedding blood.” That was another reason that the stake was used,

Could the Church have stopped the execution? Absolutely. But they didn’t because, again, their point of view of what constituted a “capital crime” was different than ours.

Does not mean it is right, but it IS understandable WHY.
And Bruno, with his heretical, Neo-Pagan teachings, WAS a threat against the Unity and Stability of the Church and the Faith.
 
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