What About Bruno? Did He Get What He Deserve?

[Moonstruck888]

It’s a little bit more “complicated” than that, Moonstruck.

What’s complicated about it? He put forward a non conformist view that was not accepted by the authorities of the time, and he died for it.

I don’t see how anyone can support the execution of anyone by a besotted establishment for uttering mere words.

 

[Apollos]

Is there really a moral distinction here? I don’t see it. The Church convicted him of a capital offense, but since no priests actually performed the execution, the Church’s hands are clean??? Well, yeah. literally they were clean. But morally?

Yes, a pretty big one. The Church doesn’t have the authority to execute anyone; the most it can do is excommunicate. It was the government that made heresy a capital crime, not the Church.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Yes, a pretty big one. The Church doesn’t have the authority to execute anyone; the most it can do is excommunicate. It was the government that made heresy a capital crime, not the Church.

Exactly.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

What’s complicated about it? He put forward a non conformist view that was not accepted by the authorities of the time, and he died for it.

I don’t see how anyone can support the execution of anyone by a besotted establishment for uttering mere words.

I agree with you--------but folks looked at things differently in those days. Uttering the things Bruno did—including challenging the Authority of the Church itself, made that a capital crime punishable by death. Not saying that it deserves the Death penalty, but folks thought differently back then. The Church excommunicated Bruno then turned him over to the Civil Authorities, who had declared Bruno’s crimes punishable by Death. There was no “separation of church and state” then , remember.

I don’t condone the execution of Bruno----i would not have executed him if I was one of the civil authorities back then----but me and you and others did not live back then.
He was considered a threat to the Authority of the Church----he refused to recant, so he got punished “appropriately” for it.

 

[Moonstruck888]

I agree with you--------but folks looked at things differently in those days. Uttering the things Bruno did—including challenging the Authority of the Church itself, made that a capital crime punishable by death. Not saying that it deserves the Death penalty, but folks thought differently back then. The Church excommunicated Bruno then turned him over to the Civil Authorities, who had declared Bruno’s crimes punishable by Death. There was no “separation of church and state” then , remember.

I don’t condone the execution of Bruno----i would not have executed him if I was one of the civil authorities back then----but me and you and others did not live back then.
He was considered a threat to the Authority of the Church----he refused to recant, so he got punished “appropriately” for it.

I’m afraid I can’t find it in my heart to accept any of this as an excuse. They had the same power of moral and ethical thought that we do today. They knew right from wrong and they chose wrong.

 

[JohnDamian]

I’m afraid I can’t find it in my heart to accept any of this as an excuse. They had the same power of moral and ethical thought that we do today. They knew right from wrong and they chose wrong.

It is not the Church’s place to implement or design civil authority. The Church found him Guilty of heresy and handed him over to the authorities; as we would expect the Church to hand over everyone they found was committing evil acts.

Likewise; in modern times if a priest or person is found to be committing a civil crime they should be handed over to civil authorities.

That is; unless you are advocating that the Church is above the law?

 

[Moonstruck888]

It is not the Church’s place to implement or design civil authority. The Church found him Guilty of heresy and handed him over to the authorities; as we would expect the Church to hand over everyone they found was committing evil acts.

Likewise; in modern times if a priest or person is found to be committing a civil crime they should be handed over to civil authorities.

That is; unless you are advocating that the Church is above the law?

The Chruch could have intervened if they had chosen to, and you know it. Back in those days, they had power without limit.

 

[JohnDamian]

The Chruch could have intervened if they had chosen to, and you know it. Back in those days, they had power without limit.

They did intervene; asking him to recant on more than one occasion.

As a Dominican, and an Ordained Priest he was also given the opportunity to reunite himself with the Order of Preachers; as well as numerous opportunities to recant his theological systems; which included heresies such as the salvation of the Devil; and a denial of Christ.

Saying the Church had “power without limit” is totally incorrect. The Church offered him forgiveness; and reunion with his Order; but he rejected that; and was then handed over to the Civil Authorities as what he was; an unrepentant heretic.

The man was given many chances and opportunities to save his own life; but he purposefully chose not to. He was determined to hold his erronious beliefs to the grave; and whilst it is tragic that he was slain by the Civil Authorities; it is in no way the fault of the Church; in the same way as it is not the fault of the Church when a criminal Priest or Friar is handed over to Civil Authorities; it is the individuals fault for committing those crimes.

 

[Moonstruck888]

They did intervene; asking him to recant on more than one occasion.

I’ll bet they did. Martyrs are a public relations disaster. Particularly if they happen to be right.

The man was given many chances and opportunities to save his own life; but he purposefully chose not to. He was determined to hold his erronious beliefs to the grave; and whilst it is tragic that he was slain by the Civil Authorities; it is in no way the fault of the Church; in the same way as it is not the fault of the Church when a criminal Priest or Friar is handed over to Civil Authorities; it is the individuals fault for committing those crimes.

But Giordano Bruno committed no crime. If talking rubbish should be a capital crime, then your coat would be on a far shakier nail than Bruno’s.

You see, we now know that much of what Bruno said was totally accurate. Planetary systems are commonplace.

 

[JDaniel]

You are totally wrong.

The official statistic puts the US capital punishment death count to 1226 since 1976. That’s only 34 years - but lets say the execution rate was 15 % higher in those previous 16 years (I don’t think it was) - that would put the body count to roughly 2000.

According to Henry Kamen’s Spanish Inquisition Inquisition in Spain executed roughly 2000 people (mostly Jews) between 1480 and 1530 (also 50 years). And that’s only 50 years in 16th century Spain - on a population 20 times smaller than that of contemporary USA.

Perhaps you might read this:

The Inquisition was extremely active between 1480 and 1530. Different sources give different estimates of the number of trials and executions in this period; Henry Kamen estimates about 2,000 executed, based on the documentation of the Autos de Fé, the great majority being conversos of Jewish origin. He offers striking statistics: 91.6% of those judged in Valencia between 1484 and 1530 and 99.3% of those judged in Barcelona between 1484 and 1505 were of Jewish origin.[12] "In 1498 the pope was still trying to…gain acceptance for his own attitude towards the New Christians, which was generally more moderate than that of the Inquisition and the local rulers - Wikipedia - Spanish Inquisition

God bless,
jd

 

[Ghosty]

You are totally wrong.

The official statistic puts the US capital punishment death count to 1226 since 1976. That’s only 34 years - but lets say the execution rate was 15 % higher in those previous 16 years (I don’t think it was) - that would put the body count to roughly 2000.

According to Henry Kamen’s Spanish Inquisition Inquisition in Spain executed roughly 2000 people (mostly Jews) between 1480 and 1530 (also 50 years). And that’s only 50 years in 16th century Spain - on a population 20 times smaller than that of contemporary USA.

The Roman Inquisition was a completely different and seperate entity from the Spanish Inquisition. The Spanish Inquisition was under the Spanish Crown, and was not affiliated in any way with Rome (though Roman Catholics, including clergy, obviously participated). The Roman Inquisition was run by the Catholic Church under the Holy See and tried Galileo and Bruno (and operates today under the name Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith; Pope Benedict XVI was the head of it for some time).

Peace and God bless!

 

[JDaniel]

Spoken like a true moral relativist.

It seems to me that either it is right to convict heretics of capital offenses then and now or wrong then and now. That is, unless what is right and wrong is just a matter of cultural convention.

Oh, Leela:

Again you rant.The Pope was trying to stop the death penalty throughout that part of the realm he could get to. But, alas, no internet, no email, to US Postal Service, no Fed Ex, no UPS, no telephones, no telegraphs, etc., etc., etc. IOW, his effectiveness took time.

God bless,
jd

 

[JohnDamian]

I’ll bet they did. Martyrs are a public relations disaster. Particularly if they happen to be right.

As has been stated before. Bruno was not questioned about his Scientific Beliefs. In fact; the Doctor of the Church enquiring about his beliefs was Robert Bellarmine; who later encouraged Galileo to teach Copernican theory as a theory; until sufficient evidence could be optained either way; Bellarmine was open to the possibility Copernican theory; but rejected the heresies of Bruno; particularily those regarding Christs Divinity – Nothing that was objected too “happened to be right”. However, if I have missed something; and you have empirical evidence for; say the salvation of Satan – feel free to present it.

Until such a time however; we can regard Brunos heretical opinions as unsupported bunk. The Church allowed Bruno to recant his “theories” and rejoin his Order; but he refused; and was subsequently slain for this.

But Giordano Bruno committed no crime. If talking rubbish should be a capital crime, then your coat would be on a far shakier nail than Bruno’s.

In some countries in the world, treason is still a capital offence. I do not believe in Capital punishment; but what I am objecting too here is the claim that the Church is responsible for Brunos death. - which is unsupported bunk.

With regards to *this *discussion, where have I “talked rubbish”?

For one thing it appears entirely the inverse; as you then go on to bring up completely irrelevant copernican theory.

If I may ask charitably; aside from creating a strawman; or dodging the question - what is the purpose in bringing up the fact that "Planetary systems are commonplace. "

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

I’ll bet they did. Martyrs are a public relations disaster. Particularly if they happen to be right.

But Giordano Bruno committed no crime. If talking rubbish should be a capital crime, then your coat would be on a far shakier nail than Bruno’s.

You see, we now know that much of what Bruno said was totally accurate. Planetary systems are commonplace./QUOTE

Yeah, Planetary Systems are commonplace, but the Immaculate Conception is still not a lie, like he taught. The Devil may not one day repent, like Bruno taught (and Origen) taught. One may not engage in Hermetic Philosophy and Magic Incantantions, like he did.One may not be part of secret societies which engaged in Necromancy. I was into New Age/Pagan/Hermetic Philosophy for years-----so I know all about what Bruno believed in and actually did. He is a shining star in Hermetic/New Age/Magical Philosophy circles.

To expand upon what John Damian said, he spent 7 Years in prison, where he engaged the Church Authorities many times in “dialogue.” He never recanted.

The man basically wanted to replace Church teachings with his and that of his Hermetic cronies’s outlook. So they turned him over to the civil authorities, which demanded death for his type of heresy.

Again, he was not convicted for his Heliocentric and Planetary views----it was for his blatantly Heretical, Neo-Pagan, persistently Anti-Church views.

Yes, he was right in his Heliocentrism and Planetary views. He was also a phenonmenally learned man who could remember huge amounts of information with a special pnemonic method.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I would not have have had him executed. I think that was wrong.
But you see, the Church and Civil Authorities at the time disagreed.
He was athreat.
They removed him as a threat.

The irony is, the Church expressed regret over this some years ago------but still clarified the reasons Bruno was convicted and rightfully denied that it was because of Heliocentrism that the old rabblerouser met his end.

 

[Moonstruck888]

Moonstruck888;7086261:

I’ll bet they did. Martyrs are a public relations disaster. Particularly if they happen to be right.

But Giordano Bruno committed no crime. If talking rubbish should be a capital crime, then your coat would be on a far shakier nail than Bruno’s.

You see, we now know that much of what Bruno said was totally accurate. Planetary systems are commonplace.

Yeah, Planetary Systems are commonplace, but the Immaculate Conception is still not a lie, like he taught. The Devil may not one day repent, like Bruno taught (and Origen) taught. One may not engage in Hermetic Philosophy and Magic Incantantions, like he did.One may not be part of secret societies which engaged in Necromancy. I was into New Age/Pagan/Hermetic Philosophy for years-----so I know all about what Bruno believed in and actually did. He is a shining star in Hermetic/New Age/Magical Philosophy circles.

To expand upon what John Damian said, he spent 7 Years in prison, where he engaged the Church Authorities many times in “dialogue.” He never recanted.

The man basically wanted to replace Church teachings with his and that of his Hermetic cronies’s outlook. So they turned him over to the civil authorities, which demanded death for his type of heresy.

Again, he was not convicted for his Heliocentric and Planetary views----it was for his blatantly Heretical, Neo-Pagan, persistently Anti-Church views.

Yes, he was right in his Heliocentrism and Planetary views. He was also a phenonmenally learned man who could remember huge amounts of information with a special pnemonic method.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I would not have have had him executed. I think that was wrong.
But you see, the Church and Civil Authorities at the time disagreed.
He was athreat.
They removed him as a threat.

The irony is, the Church expressed regret over this some years ago------but still clarified the reasons Bruno was convicted and rightfully denied that it was because of Heliocentrism that the old rabblerouser met his end.

It’s funny how nothing much ever changes. It’s Condoms and HIV and Abortion and Homosexuality now while the heretic stand at the door in short skirts shouting “pedophile”. The buzzwords change, but the hysteric reaction never does. Not on either side.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

Oh, Leela:

Again you rant.The Pope was trying to stop the death penalty throughout that part of the realm he could get to. But, alas, no internet, no email, to US Postal Service, no Fed Ex, no UPS, no telephones, no telegraphs, etc., etc., etc. IOW, his effectiveness took time.

God bless,
jd

WE are moral relativists? OOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK. (I mean Leela).

Some things may be self-evident but are not “apparent” at a particulalr time.
Nobody is saying Bruno’s execution was right----but it was the CIVIL AUTHORITIES that executed him. NOT the Church. The penalty for Bruno’s heretical crimes in those days was death. Period. Wrong, but that was they way it was.

Yes, the Church “wanted him dead.” But they had convicted him of disseminating information that they rightfully felt was wrong, heretical, pagan, Satanic-inspired, and a threat to their basic authority.

There was NO choice from their point of view. They also had to defer to the civil authorities, whon demanded Death as well.
There was NO separation of church ans state then, remember.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

WE are moral relativists? OOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK. (I mean Leela).

Some things may be self-evident but are not “apparent” at a particulalr time.
Nobody is saying Bruno’s execution was right----but it was the CIVIL AUTHORITIES that executed him. NOT the Church. The penalty for Bruno’s heretical crimes in those days was death. Period. Wrong, but that was they way it was.

Yes, the Church “wanted him dead.” But they had convicted him of disseminating information that they rightfully felt was wrong, heretical, pagan, Satanic-inspired, and a threat to their basic authority.

There was NO choice from their point of view. They also had to defer to the civil authorities, whon demanded Death as well.
There was NO separation of church and state then, remember.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

It’s funny how nothing much ever changes. It’s Condoms and HIV and Abortion and Homosexuality now while the heretic stand at the door in short skirts shouting “pedophile”. The buzzwords change, but the hysteric reaction never does. Not on either side.

The things you have mentioned (with the exception of HIV) are sins and against the teachings of the Church. They are wrong just like Bruno was wrong in 1600. Some things never change—you are right. Nice try, but NO.

What do you mean by “The Heretic stands at the door in shiort skirts shouting pedophile.”?

Abuse victims are not heretics and the Church has addressed that.
The Church continues to suffer for its ignoring of the Sex Abuse scandals, but now they have taken steps to remedy that. They will never ignore this again. You know this.

The Pope even apologized for the mistakes that were made and met with victims months ago and in Britain.

This is not a “hysteric reaction.” they are sins against the Catholic Church and God. To YOU they are Ok, but not to the Church and God.

And your attmeot to tie folks who engage in those kinds of behavior to be in the level of “Heroes” like you imply Bruno was is ludicrous and laughable.

 

[Moonstruck888]

The things you have mentioned (with the exception of HIV) are sins and against the teachings of the Church. They are wrong just like Bruno was wrong in 1600. Some things never change—you are right. Nice try, but NO.

What do you mean by “The Heretic stands at the door in shiort skirts shouting pedophile.”?

Abuse victims are not heretics and the Church has addressed that.
The Church continues to suffer for its ignoring of the Sex Abuse scandals, but now they have taken steps to remedy that. They will never ignore this again. You know this.

The Pope even apologized for the mistakes that were made and met with victims months ago and in Britain.

This is not a “hysteric reaction.” they are sins against the Catholic Church and God. To YOU they are Ok, but not to the Church and God.

And your attmeot to tie folks who engage in those kinds of behavior to be in the level of “Heroes” like you imply Bruno was is ludicrous and laughable.

You haven’t understood a single thing I said.

 

[JDaniel]

WE are moral relativists? OOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK. (I mean Leela).

Some things may be self-evident but are not “apparent” at a particulalr time.
Nobody is saying Bruno’s execution was right----but it was the CIVIL AUTHORITIES that executed him. NOT the Church. The penalty for Bruno’s heretical crimes in those days was death. Period. Wrong, but that was they way it was.

Yes, the Church “wanted him dead.” But they had convicted him of disseminating information that they rightfully felt was wrong, heretical, pagan, Satanic-inspired, and a threat to their basic authority.

There was NO choice from their point of view. They also had to defer to the civil authorities, whon demanded Death as well.
There was NO separation of church ans state then, remember.

Yes, but my reading of history indicates that the Church may, in fact, not have wanted him dead. No doubt, it wanted him shut up, and, perhaps, sequestered. By and large, the Vatican was opposed to capital punishment and, were it not for the Vatican, many more would have perished.

Perhaps there’s a real historian on board that can help us.

god bless,
jd