What about Catholics who leave the Church because they sincerely believe Catholicism isn't true?

[timeandeternity]

I’m having trouble understanding exactly what the Church teaches on people who have left the Catholic Church. I know that if someone rejects the faith, knowing what they are doing, they are condemned. But I get confused when it comes to people who quite sincerely come to believe that Catholicism is not the fullness of truth, and so they leave because they have very honestly (though incorrectly) come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is not what she says she is.

Of course, if you’re taking about people who decide to leave because of emotional reasons, and then conform their reasoning to their emotions to justify their decision, that’s a whole other situation. However, there are some people (and I’ve known a few of these) who truly think they’ve discovered that Catholicism isn’t right, so they leave. They know that the Church says that to leave means that you’re condemned, but they quite honestly don’t believe that the Church has spiritual authority. Does anyone know what the Catholic position is on the status of such people?

 

[rom422]

I’m having trouble understanding exactly what the Church teaches on people who have left the Catholic Church. I know that if someone rejects the faith, knowing what they are doing, they are condemned. But I get confused when it comes to people who quite sincerely come to believe that Catholicism is not the fullness of truth, and so they leave because they have very honestly (though incorrectly) come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is not what she says she is.

Of course, if you’re taking about people who decide to leave because of emotional reasons, and then conform their reasoning to their emotions to justify their decision, that’s a whole other situation. However, there are some people (and I’ve known a few of these) who truly think they’ve discovered that Catholicism isn’t right, so they leave. They know that the Church says that to leave means that you’re condemned, but they quite honestly don’t believe that the Church has spiritual authority. Does anyone know what the Catholic position is on the status of such people?

Only God knows the real status of such people.

The Church position is that if a person is not a catholic through no fault of its own, but still loves God with all his heart, and accepts Christ as his Lord and Savior, then he can still be an “invisible” member of the Catholic Church. However, every person has the obligation to seek the truth. So a former catholic who leaves the Church better have good and honest reasons for doing so, lest he brings excommunication upon himself.

 

[thistle]

I’m having trouble understanding exactly what the Church teaches on people who have left the Catholic Church. I know that if someone rejects the faith, knowing what they are doing, they are condemned. But I get confused when it comes to people who quite sincerely come to believe that Catholicism is not the fullness of truth, and so they leave because they have very honestly (though incorrectly) come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is not what she says she is.

Of course, if you’re taking about people who decide to leave because of emotional reasons, and then conform their reasoning to their emotions to justify their decision, that’s a whole other situation. However, there are some people (and I’ve known a few of these) who truly think they’ve discovered that Catholicism isn’t right, so they leave. They know that the Church says that to leave means that you’re condemned, but they quite honestly don’t believe that the Church has spiritual authority. Does anyone know what the Catholic position is on the status of such people?

Once a Catholic always a Catholic, even those who walk away from the Church. However, those who do walk away (for whatever reason) put themselves in a state of mortal sin and if they die in that state they condemn themselves to Hell.

 

[1ke]

Invincible ignorance is a pretty high bar.

 

[Owlpride]

Very good question. Ask a priest…not people who think they know everything on the internet.

(just kidding everyone)

I’m sure people will tell you that those who leave the church go to hell, but we don’t know. Honest doubts are just that. Doubts.

 

[rom422]

Once a Catholic always a Catholic, even those who walk away from the Church.

I don’t think it is true to say that “Once a Catholic always a Catholic.” Martin Luther was once a Catholic, even a priest. But he ceased to be a Catholic and became a protestant when he rebelled against the Church.

A Catholic can cease to be a Catholic by excommunication. When you are excommunicated, you are “cut off,” so to speak, from the Catholic Church; therefore, you are placed “outside the fold.” Once you are excommunicated, you lose your rights to the sacraments. That means, for example, that you may no longer lawfully receive holy communion.

Excommunication is a punishment, a kind of disciplinary action, imposed by the Church on those who are guilty of certain grievous offenses, such as heresy, apostasy, schism, etc. Just to be clear, a heretic is a person who denies one or more truths of the Catholic Faith; an apostate is one who denies all the teachings of the Catholic Faith; and a schismatic is one who, by insubordination to Church Authority, dissociates himself from the Catholic Church. Not all schismatics are heretics or apostates.

Those guilty of heresy, apostasy, or schism incur an automatic excommunication. Because excommunication is a disciplinary action, it can be lifted or absolved by the Church if the excommunicated person retracts his error, repents of his fault, and wishes again to be in communion with the Church.

Sin does not automatically excommunicate a Catholic. A Catholic sinner, if he persists in his life of sin, does not cease to be a Catholic. But if he dies guilty of mortal sin, he can go to hell in spite of his status as Catholic. Not all Catholics go to heaven, but many good and faithful Catholics do.

Catholics who doubt one or more teachings of the Church, do not necessarily become heretics. Once they deny the teachings, then they become heretics and are automatically excommunicated. Those who leave the Church (meaning, those who refuse to recognize the Authority of the Catholic Church), regardless whether they still accept the Christian Faith or not, are guilty of insubordination and are, therefore, schismatics; they, too, incur automatic excommunication.

I am not an expert on canon law, but that is how I understand this matter. You may correct me if I am wrong.

 

[thistle]

I don’t think it is true to say that “Once a Catholic always a Catholic.” Martin Luther was once a Catholic, even a priest. But he ceased to be a Catholic and became a protestant when he rebelled against the Church.

A Catholic can cease to be a Catholic by excommunication. When you are excommunicated, you are “cut off,” so to speak, from the Catholic Church; therefore, you are placed “outside the fold.” Once you are excommunicated, you lose your rights to the sacraments. That means, for example, that you may no longer lawfully receive holy communion.

Excommunication is a punishment, a kind of disciplinary action, imposed by the Church on those who are guilty of certain grievous offenses, such as heresy, apostasy, schism, etc. Just to be clear, a heretic is a person who denies one or more truths of the Catholic Faith; an apostate is one who denies all the teachings of the Catholic Faith; and a schismatic is one who, by insubordination to Church Authority, dissociates himself from the Catholic Church. Not all schismatics are heretics or apostates.

Those guilty of heresy, apostasy, or schism incur an automatic excommunication. Because excommunication is a disciplinary action, it can be lifted or absolved by the Church if the excommunicated person retracts his error, repents of his fault, and wishes again to be in communion with the Church.

Sin does not automatically excommunicate a Catholic. A Catholic sinner, if he persists in his life of sin, does not cease to be a Catholic. But if he dies guilty of mortal sin, he can go to hell in spite of his status as Catholic. Not all Catholics go to heaven, but many good and faithful Catholics do.

Catholics who doubt one or more teachings of the Church, do not necessarily become heretics. Once they deny the teachings, then they become heretics and are automatically excommunicated. Those who leave the Church (meaning, those who refuse to recognize the Authority of the Catholic Church), regardless whether they still accept the Christian Faith or not, are guilty of insubordination and are, therefore, schismatics; they, too, incur automatic excommunication.

I am not an expert on canon law, but that is how I understand this matter. You may correct me if I am wrong.

Sorry but you are wrong. Someone who is sacramentally baptised as a Catholic is always a Catholic. A Catholic may walk away but they remain a Catholic. All they have to do is come back to Confession. A Catholic is either one in a state of grace or a state of mortal sin (like someone who rejects the Church and its teachings and walks away) but is still a Catholic.

You are mistaken about excommunication. You are confusing excommunication and not being able to receive Communion. Being excommunicated does not mean you are no longer a Catholic. It simply means the only sacrament you have access to is Confession. Go to Confession and receive absolution then have full access to all the sacraments again.

Martin Luther was once a Catholic in a state of grace then he became a Catholic in a state of mortal sin. He remained a Catholic (albeit a fallen one). All he needed to do to be saved was to confess to a priest and repent (for we know maybe he did that on his deathbed).

An apostate is not one who denies all the teachings of the Catholic faith. An apostate is a baptised person who totally rejects Christianity.

A Catholic who rejects one or more of the infallible teachings of the Church is a heretic and in a state of mortal sin.
A Catholic who rejects one or more of the non-infallible teachings of the Church is not a heretic but is in a state of mortal sin.

You are right that not all Catholics go to Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

 

[Hokomai]

That’s why just about everybody who leaves does so. The idea that we thought to ourselves, “Gosh the Church is the body of Christ and its infallible Magisterium is correct in all it says, and the Apostles and Nicean creeds and the Catechism are absolutely right, but really I can’t be bothered anymore” is just silly. People stop believing. Just ask any of the Catholic converts on here if they were sincere in their previous beliefs. of course they were. then they changed their mind.

 

[Rascalking]

Sorry but you are wrong. Someone who is sacramentally baptised as a Catholic is always a Catholic. A Catholic may walk away but they remain a Catholic. .

So what’s the problem then? If your “once Catholic, always Catholic” who cares? Become a Baptist/Hindu/worshiper of chickens then.

I think the “once Catholic, always Catholic” is really funny. So, about that “Free will” thing…doesn’t really matter, does it, if your “once Catholic, always Catholic”.?

 

[thistle]

So what’s the problem then? If your “once Catholic, always Catholic” who cares? Become a Baptist/Hindu/worshiper of chickens then.

I think the “once Catholic, always Catholic” is really funny. So, about that “Free will” thing…doesn’t really matter, does it, if your “once Catholic, always Catholic”.?

I was responding to the poster who said that excommunication means you are no longer a Catholic. I was pointing out that is not correct.

What is your point?

 

[1ke]

A Catholic can cease to be a Catholic by excommunication. When you are excommunicated, you are “cut off,” so to speak, from the Catholic Church; therefore, you are placed “outside the fold.” Once you are excommunicated, you lose your rights to the sacraments. That means, for example, that you may no longer lawfully receive holy communion.

I am not an expert on canon law, but that is how I understand this matter. You may correct me if I am wrong.

This is not accurate. One cannot cease to be Catholic, ever. One is Catholic by virtue of one’s baptism.

Excommunication does not make one “not” Catholic nor put one outside the Church. It does bar a person from the sacraments, but does not place a person “outside the fold”.

 

[Rascalking]

I was responding to the poster who said that excommunication means you are no longer a Catholic. I was pointing out that is not correct.

What is your point?

My point is very clear. It cheapens MY choice to be Catholic when you say “Once Catholic, always Catholic.” It makes “free will” (that God gave us) look as though it doesn’t exist.

 

[sw85]

I’m having trouble understanding exactly what the Church teaches on people who have left the Catholic Church. I know that if someone rejects the faith, knowing what they are doing, they are condemned. But I get confused when it comes to people who quite sincerely come to believe that Catholicism is not the fullness of truth, and so they leave because they have very honestly (though incorrectly) come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is not what she says she is.

Of course, if you’re taking about people who decide to leave because of emotional reasons, and then conform their reasoning to their emotions to justify their decision, that’s a whole other situation. However, there are some people (and I’ve known a few of these) who truly think they’ve discovered that Catholicism isn’t right, so they leave. They know that the Church says that to leave means that you’re condemned, but they quite honestly don’t believe that the Church has spiritual authority. Does anyone know what the Catholic position is on the status of such people?

To paraphrase a certain Orthodox bishop: “Mind your own business.”

That said, anyone who on principle rejects Catholic teaching is in error with full knowledge of what it is and therefore their soul is certainly in peril. It is possible that God will affect their salvation through means yet unknown to us, but we cannot rely on that hope.

 

[1ke]

My point is very clear. It cheapens MY choice to be Catholic when you say “Once Catholic, always Catholic.” It makes “free will” (that God gave us) look as though it doesn’t exist.

American culture certainly gives the false impression that freedom is the freedom to do “whatever we want”. that is not the case. Authentic freedom is freedom to do the good.

Yes, ultimately you can reject God’s Church and his gifts.

You were incorporated into the body of christ through your baptism, just as you were incorporated into your family by your birth. You cannot change who your parents are, even though you can have nothing to do with them by an act of your wil. Same with the spiritual side of your family-- you are a member of the body of christ and nothing can change that even if you have nothing to do with Her by an act of your will.

Your free will cooperates with God or resists against God. It does not alter reality or create its own reality.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Sorry but you are wrong. Someone who is sacramentally baptised as a Catholic is always a Catholic. A Catholic may walk away but they remain a Catholic. All they have to do is come back to Confession. A Catholic is either one in a state of grace or a state of mortal sin (like someone who rejects the Church and its teachings and walks away) but is still a Catholic.

I find that offensive. I’m keeping my options open. Too many unanswered questions, I’ve been asking for a decade!

 

[Hokomai]

Catholics think that ‘once a Catholic, always a Catholic’.** People who do not think of themselves as Catholic**, including former Catholics, do not agree with this. Endless repetition of Catholic! Not Catholic! does not help. Hindus (generally) think we are all reincarnations. Same thing. Reincarnated! Not reincarnated!

 

[rom422]

Sorry but you are wrong. Someone who is sacramentally baptised as a Catholic is always a Catholic. A Catholic may walk away but they remain a Catholic. All they have to do is come back to Confession. A Catholic is either one in a state of grace or a state of mortal sin (like someone who rejects the Church and its teachings and walks away) but is still a Catholic.

You are mistaken about excommunication. You are confusing excommunication and not being able to receive Communion. Being excommunicated does not mean you are no longer a Catholic. It simply means the only sacrament you have access to is Confession. Go to Confession and receive absolution then have full access to all the sacraments again.

Martin Luther was once a Catholic in a state of grace then he became a Catholic in a state of mortal sin. He remained a Catholic (albeit a fallen one). All he needed to do to be saved was to confess to a priest and repent (for we know maybe he did that on his deathbed).

An apostate is not one who denies all the teachings of the Catholic faith. An apostate is a baptised person who totally rejects Christianity.

A Catholic who rejects one or more of the infallible teachings of the Church is a heretic and in a state of mortal sin.
A Catholic who rejects one or more of the non-infallible teachings of the Church is not a heretic but is in a state of mortal sin.

You are right that not all Catholics go to Heaven but everyone in Heaven is Catholic.

Hi Thistle,

I think we should start by defining our terms. The word “excommunication” means exclusion from communion with, or exclusion from membership in, the Catholic Church. If you are excluded from membership in the Catholic Church, then you are simply no longer a Catholic. That does not mean that you are no longer a Christian. You are still a Christian by your baptism, because baptism leaves a mark in your soul that cannot be erased (an indelible mark). Maybe that is what you mean, “once a Christian, always a Christian.” However, that is not the same thing as “once a Catholic, always a Catholic.”

Normally you become a Catholic by being baptized in the Catholic Church. When you are baptized in the Catholic Church, two things happen: (1) you become a Christian and your sins (especially original sin) are washed away by the blood of our Savior Jesus Christ; (2) you automatically become a member of the Catholic Church. If later in your life you commit a grievous fault that incurs the punishment of excommunication, you then are excluded from membership in the Catholic Church, and you cease to be a Catholic, but you still remain a Christian, that means, a person who has once accepted Christ, and for whom our Lord suffered and died. If an excommunicated person wants to join the Catholic Church again, he/she should seek absolution from excommunication, but does not need to be baptized again.

Therefore, excommunication does not simply mean being barred from receiving the Eucharist. It also means being barred from receiving all the sacraments, including confession. An excommunicated person may attempt to go to confession, but if the confessor does not have the faculty to lift or absolve the excommunication, the sins cannot be absolved! Basically, the excommunication must be absolved first, and then the sins. Unfortunately, not all confessors have the faculty to absolve an excommunication, except in danger of death. If an excommunicated person could not find a confessor with the required faculty, then he/she should seek absolution from excommunication from his/her local bishop.

Because an excommunicated person is excluded from membership in the ecclesiastical society, called the church, he/she is also excluded from its rites, public prayers, and other privileges. This is a very serious punishment, indeed. This means that an excommunicated person may not lawfully attend a Catholic Mass, nor is he/she entitled to the public prayers of the church, the burial rites, etc. However, catholics are allowed to pray for those who have been excommunicated.

In the past there used to be a distinction made between “minor” and “major” excommunication. Minor excommunication is just like a penitential exclusion, which bars a Catholic from receiving the Eucharist, but not all the sacraments. Today, however, this distinction is no longer being used. All excommunications are major excommunications.

For more information on excommunication, please use the Catholic Encyclopedia. Here is the link: newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm. Do not use the Wikipedia, as it is not accurate.

God bless!

 

[Castello]

So what’s the problem then? If your “once Catholic, always Catholic” who cares? Become a Baptist/Hindu/worshiper of chickens then.

I think the “once Catholic, always Catholic” is really funny. So, about that “Free will” thing…doesn’t really matter, does it, if your “once Catholic, always Catholic”.?

What matters is you can be a Catholic while spending eternity in Hell, that mark on your soul letting you know that you were meant to spend eternity with Him

(eta - not to mean YOU personally, you as in a human in general)

 

[Rascalking]

What matters is you can be a Catholic while spending eternity in Hell, that mark on your soul letting you know that you were meant to spend eternity with Him

(eta - not to mean YOU personally, you as in a human in general)

I understand completely, and you don’t need to worry about adding the “not to mean you…” part. I don’t take anything personal here.

God bless.

 

[Rascalking]

American culture certainly gives the false impression that freedom is the freedom to do “whatever we want”. that is not the case. Authentic freedom is freedom to do the good.
.

Nope, it doesn’t have anything to do with “American Culture”. It has to do with “freedom”. True freedom is the choice to do what you want, you can choose good or evil.