What about devotion to Mary?

[Sandalwood]

I have been uncomfortable with the …what seems like worship… of Mary as well. I asked my priest about this and he said we do not have to do any Marian devotion whatsoever, that some people feel closer to Jesus because of it and some feel they are focusing on Mary instead of Jesus and so do not participate. He said the choice is totally ours. he did say, however, as you yourself have stated, that the Hail Mary is Scriptural so there’s really no reason to feel awkward about that.

the part of the rosary I am most uncomfortable with is the Hail Holy Queen. I most often substitute another prayer there and my priest said that is perfectly acceptable.

 

[azchurch]

I have been uncomfortable with the …what seems like worship… of Mary as well. I asked my priest about this and he said we do not have to do any Marian devotion whatsoever, that some people feel closer to Jesus because of it and some feel they are focusing on Mary instead of Jesus and so do not participate. He said the choice is totally ours. he did say, however, as you yourself have stated, that the Hail Mary is Scriptural so there’s really no reason to feel awkward about that.

the part of the rosary I am most uncomfortable with is the Hail Holy Queen. I most often substitute another prayer there and my priest said that is perfectly acceptable.

Where the prayers and devotion and the focus seems to be exclusively Mary, then I fear some forget that the ONLY reason anyone ever heard of that faithful lady is because of Who God put in her blessed womb. Without a doubt, Mary is to be honored, imitated, and celebrated for her faith, her life, and for the fact that she said Yes to the Blessed Savior in her womb.

But she is not God. She cannot make things happen and she has no power, no authority, and no place without the Grace and Mercy of God - just like everyone else. So when people ask Mary for favor, or petition her to do something, then it gives fuel to anti-catholic propoganda that we “pray TO Mary” as someone equal to God. That is what I get confronted with and that is why I hesitate to participate in some of the Marian prayers and novenas and devotions.

People ask me why Catholics make shrines to Mary where there is only a statue of Mary and no mention of Jesus? Why do Catholics put a big image of Mary on the back window of their cars and not Jesus? Why do Latino gang-bangers do drugs and kill people and all kinds of sin and have a tattoo of Mary on their back and have Rosaries on their rearview mirror? That is the “cultural misunderstanding” I have to live in.

 

[Sandalwood]

Where the prayers and devotion and the focus seems to be exclusively Mary, then I fear some forget that the ONLY reason anyone ever heard of that faithful lady is because of Who God put in her blessed womb. Without a doubt, Mary is to be honored, imitated, and celebrated for her faith, her life, and for the fact that she said Yes to the Blessed Savior in her womb.

But she is not God. She cannot make things happen and she has no power, no authority, and no place without the Grace and Mercy of God - just like everyone else. So when people ask Mary for favor, or petition her to do something, then it gives fuel to anti-catholic propoganda that we “pray TO Mary” as someone equal to God. That is what I get confronted with and that is why I hesitate to participate in some of the Marian prayers and novenas and devotions.

People ask me why Catholics make shrines to Mary where there is only a statue of Mary and no mention of Jesus? Why do Catholics put a big image of Mary on the back window of their cars and not Jesus? .

You just said exactly what I feel. I completely agree with you.

 

[Edwin78]

Where the prayers and devotion and the focus seems to be exclusively Mary, then I fear some forget that the ONLY reason anyone ever heard of that faithful lady is because of Who God put in her blessed womb. Without a doubt, Mary is to be honored, imitated, and celebrated for her faith, her life, and for the fact that she said Yes to the Blessed Savior in her womb.

That is true. We can never had known about Mary if it was not for her Fiat. All that we know about her is in relation to he Son Jesus. In fact, everything about her is relative to God.

Mary is entirely relative to God. Indeed I would say that she was relative only to God, because she exists uniquely in reference to him. — St. Louis Marie de Montfort

But she is not God. She cannot make things happen and she has no power, no authority, and no place without the Grace and Mercy of God - just like everyone else. So when people ask Mary for favor, or petition her to do something, then it gives fuel to anti-catholic propoganda that we “pray TO Mary” as someone equal to God. That is what I get confronted with and that is why I hesitate to participate in some of the Marian prayers and novenas and devotions.

Have you tried what I suggested, azchurch? Have you let Mary and God tell you who she is in the whole scheme of things?

People ask me why Catholics make shrines to Mary where there is only a statue of Mary and no mention of Jesus? Why do Catholics put a big image of Mary on the back window of their cars and not Jesus? Why do Latino gang-bangers do drugs and kill people and all kinds of sin and have a tattoo of Mary on their back and have Rosaries on their rearview mirror? That is the “cultural misunderstanding” I have to live in.

The answer is that, as you noted, Mary is entirely relative to Jesus. Wherever there is Mary, there is Jesus.

Let me ask you something. You have problems with the display of images of Mary only, with the image of Jesus not in sight, right? Well, how about where there are the religious use of images of the cross (not the crucifix)?

Why is there so much problem in accepting the use of the image of the Blessed Virgin with no image of Jesus around, when the use of the cross that does not have Jesus Christ hanging from it is no big deal for so many? The cross without Jesus Christ is just an instrument of torture, yet the concept of the Blessed Virgin cannot be separated from her Son. It is impossible to NOT think of Jesus Christ when seeing an image of or thinking about the Blessed Virgin, unless you are completely ignorant about her. In which case, it is impossible to NOT include Jesus Christ in explaining to anyone who the Blessed Virgin Mary is. Even you cannot help but think of Jesus when you are having doubts about Mary, judging from what you posted…

So intimately is she united to [her Son] that it would be easier to separate light from the sun, and heat from the fire. — St. Louis Marie de Montfort

Ad Jesum per Mariam!

 

[Axion]

But she is not God. She cannot make things happen and she has no power, no authority, and no place without the Grace and Mercy of God - just like everyone else. So when people ask Mary for favor, or petition her to do something, then it gives fuel to anti-catholic propoganda that we “pray TO Mary” as someone equal to God. That is what I get confronted with and that is why I hesitate to participate in some of the Marian prayers and novenas and devotions.

People ask me why Catholics make shrines to Mary where there is only a statue of Mary and no mention of Jesus? Why do Catholics put a big image of Mary on the back window of their cars and not Jesus? Why do Latino gang-bangers do drugs and kill people and all kinds of sin and have a tattoo of Mary on their back and have Rosaries on their rearview mirror? That is the “cultural misunderstanding” I have to live in.

It seems now to be as I suggested earlier. The reason this has come up is that you are being targetted by protestant fundamentalists - and you seem to be listening to what they are feeding you, and allowing it to lead you astray. I thought the argument about praying ten Hail Marys to one Our Father was the familiar protestant attack - based largely on misunderstanding of what the Rosary is.

Mary is NOT “just like everyone else” as these protestant fundies say. She is a pivotal person in salvation history, she is “full of Grace”, the one who gave her flesh and human nature to Jesus, and who all generations shall name blessed. In particular she is mother to all Christians - a position confirmed three times through scripture: Once in that as brethren of Jesus and part of His body, we share Mary as our Mother; Twice in His gift of Mary as Mother from the cross, and the Third confirmation in Revelation 12, when the “Children” of the Woman are named as those who follow and obey Jesus.

Why does Mary appear in shrines and devotional pictures? because, (unlike many Protestants) traditional APOSTOLIC (Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Eastern) Christianity does NOT hide her away and try to forget she exists, barely mentioning her at all except to run her down. Have you not seen Catholic shrines and pictures of Jesus as well, and those of other Saints. They are often quite prominent…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

What protestants do is present a FALSE CONTRADICTION. You cannot honour Mary, they say and honour Jesus. Rubbish! If you love your own mother or brother, does that mean you love your father less? Does your dad go round saying, “Throw out that picture of your mother, it means you think less of me”? I don’t think so.

Catholics DO pray to Mary (and Saints) in the sense that we ask them to help us spiritually and join in our prayer to God. Just as you might ask someone you know to do the same. This is not, however worship - in either situation. So forget the poison these fundies are feeding you and have faith in the teachings of the Church founded by the Apostles.

 

[AnneElliot]

If you haven’t, azchurch, I recommend you try reading St. Louis de Montfort’s True Devotion to Mary and/or perhaps some of the papal encyclicals concerning Our Lady. I don’t think that you should set aside Marian devotion because you have concerns… I think it is all more reason that you should set aside some time to delve into it.

When you are concerned about the attention paid to Mary by other Catholics, just remember, we can’t love Mary any more than God does. Our love and devotion to her can never be too small-- there is no limit on love-- and our love of Mary will lead us to a greater and deeper love for her Son, Jesus Christ (as she told the waiters at the wedding at Cana, “Do whatever He tells you”).

True Devotion to Mary (I recommend a hard copy, but this might do for now)
ewtn.com/library/montfort/truedevo.htm

Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html

Ad Diem Illum, Pope Pius X
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html

Ingruentium Malorum, Pope Pius XII
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_15091951_ingruentium-malorum_en.html

Fulgens Corona, Pope Pius XII
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_08091953_fulgens-corona_en.html

Deiparae Virginis Mariae, Pope Pius XII
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_01051946_deiparae-virginis-mariae_en.html

Ad Caeli Reginam, Pope Pius XII
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam_en.html

Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater_en.html

Marialis Cultus, Pope Paul VI
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

Rosarium Virginis Mariae, Pope John Paul II
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html

Supremi Apostolatus Officio, Pope Leo XIII
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01091883_supremi-apostolatus-officio_en.html

Octobri Mense Pope Leo XIII
vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_22091891_octobri-mense_en.html

Adiutricem, Pope Leo XIII
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm

Augustissimae Virginis Mariae, Pope Leo XIII
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13augus.htm

Diuturni Temporis, Pope Leo XIII
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13diutu.htm

Fidentem Piumque Animum, Pope Leo XIII
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13fiden.htm

Iucunda Semper Expectatione, Pope Leo XIII
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro5.htm

Laetitiae Sanctae, Pope Leo XIII
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro3.htm

Magnae Dei Matris, Pope Leo XIII
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro2.htm

Superiore Anno, Pope Leo XIII
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ro4.htm

Vi E Ben Noto, Pope Leo XIII
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13ros.htm

Ubi Primum, Pope Pius IX
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ubipr2.htm

Allocution, Pope Pius X
papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10aniv.htm

Ingravescentibus Malis, Pope Pius XI
papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11GRAVE.HTM

Christi Matri, Pope Paul VI
papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6christ.htm

Mense Maio, Pope Paul VI
papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6month.htm

Signum Magnum, Pope Paul VI
papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6great.htm

Now, do I recommend that you go overwhelming yourself and read them all at once? Of course not… but perhaps click through the links and find one that seems interesting to you and read through it slowly, digesting its contents, writing down your questions… and then going through the others and doing the same. You will find your questions answered along the way, and you may gain a better appreciation for Marian devotion if you are open.

 

[azchurch]

Have you tried what I suggested, azchurch? Have you let Mary and God tell you who she is in the whole scheme of things?

That’s why I’m here and why I’m asking other Catholics for (name removed by moderator)ut. I’m also reading the Catechism and highlighting parts to further study. Please understand I’m not attacking nor denigrating the place of Mary nor practices regarding Our Lady. I have questions and I’m bringing them before people I trust!

Let me ask you something. You have problems with the display of images of Mary only, with the image of Jesus not in sight, right? Well, how about where there are the religious use of images of the cross (not the crucifix)? Why is there so much problem in accepting the use of the image of the Blessed Virgin with no image of Jesus around, when the use of the cross that does not have Jesus Christ hanging from it is no big deal for so many?

I’ve never considered that. I guess that after Easter we have the “bare” Cross as representing the Risen Christ so we know Who had been there, and it’s apparent what that means. I do know that where I’ve been in a Catholic Church that is less in keeping with tradition (e.g. “American” Catholic churches) that they often have a bare Cross all of the time.

The cross without Jesus Christ is just an instrument of torture, yet the concept of the Blessed Virgin cannot be separated from her Son.

In that context, yes yes absolutely! But, I see that very thing - devotion to Mary exclusively - too often. And that is the very point I’m trying to stumble into. How do I balance the instances where Catholics around me are stepping over Marian devotion in relationship to her place as Mother of God into adoration without reference to Christ?

It is impossible to NOT think of Jesus Christ when seeing an image of or thinking about the Blessed Virgin, unless you are completely ignorant about her. In which case, it is impossible to NOT include Jesus Christ in explaining to anyone who the Blessed Virgin Mary is. Even you cannot help but think of Jesus when you are having doubts about Mary, judging from what you posted.

Again, I agree with what you say and I’m not stumbling into this as a recent convert or someone who has no appreciation for the tradition and culture of Catholicism. It is the many instances where I see prayers and devotions to Mary standing alone.

You obviously put a lot of thought and consideration into this post and I very much appreciate your efforts to help me. Thank you.

 

[azchurch]

Anne

MUCH food for thought. Thank you so much for putting these links together for me. I will definitely be studying them as I wander through these questions I have. Be ready because I may have further questions for you!

Thanks again.

 

[AnneElliot]

Anne

MUCH food for thought. Thank you so much for putting these links together for me. I will definitely be studying them as I wander through these questions I have. Be ready because I may have further questions for you!

Thanks again.

I’m glad you are not too overwhelmed!

Marian devotion has always been interesting to me. I held back several other book suggestions. Those are not a compendium of every Magisterial teaching on the Blessed Mother, just what I had available at my fingertips and could easily link you to.

Don’t hesitate to ask if you are looking for something more specific or other suggestions (writings of the Saints). I’m just a PM away!

I’m glad you are studying.

 

[azchurch]

Catholics DO pray to Mary (and Saints) in the sense that we ask them to help us spiritually and join in our prayer to God. Just as you might ask someone you know to do the same.

Absolutely! I have never doubted the intercession of the saints and the special intercession of the Mother of Our Lord. But I live in a world where I am friends with, I work with, and sometimes am confronted by other Christians who do not share our Catholic faith. I’m intelligent enough and possess discernment to not fall prey to “fundamentalist attacks.” I came to my brothers and sisters in the Faith with my concerns - I don’t take these questions outside the Family.

And, I think it’s important, given that I’ve seen others voice similar questions, that we confirm our beliefs when we have issues or concerns. I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and the thought you put into your post. Thank you.

 

[Edwin78]

That’s why I’m here and why I’m asking other Catholics for (name removed by moderator)ut. I’m also reading the Catechism and highlighting parts to further study. Please understand I’m not attacking nor denigrating the place of Mary nor practices regarding Our Lady. I have questions and I’m bringing them before people I trust!

Azchurch, I read again my previous reply to you, and I realized that the language I used was stronger than necessary. I’m really sorry for that.

In that context, yes yes absolutely! But, I see that very thing - devotion to Mary exclusively - too often. And that is the very point I’m trying to stumble into. How do I balance the instances where Catholics around me are stepping over Marian devotion in relationship to her place as Mother of God into adoration without reference to Christ?

May I ask, azchurch, how do you know that the devotion to Mary of the people around you have no reference to Jesus Christ?

If there are people kneeling before a passing image of the Virgin of Guadalupe, I would also kneel. For one, I know why I should kneel, because I am not kneeling because of Mary; I am kneeling because the image of Mary is pregnant with her Son, Who is worthy of adoration and worship.

And that is the reason also I show respect to any image of the Blessed Virgin: she had been the new Ark of the Covenant while she was on earth, and now in heaven she is the heavenly Ark of the Covenant. Wherever she is, Jesus is with her; and wherever Jesus is, Mary is with Him.

Let us say the the Holy Pope passes by as he carries the Body of Christ in a monstrance…

http://thepracticingcatholic.files....pope-benedict-with-monstrance.jpg?w=235&h=272

Do we kneel because of His Holiness the Pope? Do we kneel because of the beauty of the monstrance? No, we kneel because God Himself, in the humble form of bread, passes us by.

And so with Mary. She now only exists to give glory to God by magnifying Him, and God always dwells in her now. And that is why we should respect any image of Mary, in a matter exceeding that of our respect to images of other saints, because by doing that we respect God Who is in her.

But anyways, I think I have not answered your question yet. I would think that you deal with others’ “worshiping” of Mary by giving to Mary what is due to her: nothing more, nothing less. Why should you worry how everyone else gives honor to God and Mary? It will just give you anxiety, and anxiety is the only emotion we are not allowed to have.

In fact, I now believe what the others are telling you: this most probably is a demonic attack. The enemy really hates our glorious Mother.

Again, I agree with what you say and I’m not stumbling into this as a recent convert or someone who has no appreciation for the tradition and culture of Catholicism. It is the many instances where I see prayers and devotions to Mary standing alone.

May I know what these devotions and prayers are?

You obviously put a lot of thought and consideration into this post and I very much appreciate your efforts to help me. Thank you.

You’re welcome! God bless.

Ad Jesum per Mariam!

 

[azchurch]

I was gone for a few days so didn’t get to see this until today. The more I read, the more confused I become! Oh wretched man that I am!

I think it is the people who miss the point or do not understand or ignore the connection of the Child within Mary that bothers me. As you can see earlier in this thread, Anne gave me a lot of articles and links to study. I’m looking at that and everything else.

I will say that I get attacked by demons a lot and I sure give in a lot easier than I have on this question. I think it is a natural progression at stages of life and growth in faith to have some doubts or need some clarifications. Is that an attack from hell? I don’t know, but like I said I’ve been through some pretty overwhelming struggles with evil and this don’t feel like much to me.

Thanks again for the ideas and encouragement.