What about Freemasonry is "dangerous"?

[Montrose]

Please do not peddle conspiracies with no evidence.

So you are in effect stating that you do not accept the Church teaching on Freemasonry!

"the Declaration of the Sacred Congregation affirms that membership in Masonic associations «remains forbidden by the Church», and the faithful who enrolls in them «are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion».

 

[PSUCath]

So you are in effect stating that you do not accept the Church teaching on Freemasonry!

Oh my goodness, talking to some of the people in this forum is like talking to a wall.

Montrose, please read my the first sentence of my ORIGINAL QUESTION, and then try to tell me that I do not accept Church teaching:

I’m also aware that a Catholic who joins a Lodge is in a state of grave sin and should not receive the Eucharist.

For crying out loud, I already walked into here knowing that Masonry is not compatible with Catholicism. I already knew the Church’s teaching on it. I already knew that it has been condemned more times than any other single organization in the history of the Vatican.

All I want to know is why.

 

[fredystairs]

All I want to know is why.

Greetings

There are several articles on the Catholic Answers website that discuss Freemasonry. I reviewed them and came away with a better understanding of what Freemasonry is and why it is dangerous, so thanks for the question as it made me understand Freemasonry a little better. One thing that I learned is that Freemasonry is dangerous in a spiritual context. Apparently, Freemasonry has an understanding of “indifferentism” whereby ALL religions are the same. Clearly, from a Catholic perspective, this would be dangerous as the many different religions teach many different ideas and the Church teaches that Catholicism has the fullness of the truth. Therefore if one follows other religions, it will be much harder to enter heaven. This is a spiritual danger of Freemasonry.

I have attached a couple of articles from the Catholic Answers website. There are others that you might want to peruse. Please let me know if you want to discuss.

Pax

What Does the Church Say about Freemasonry? | Catholic Answers Q&A

Is Freemasonry a Religion? | Catholic Answers Q&A

 

[Bithynian]

I appreciate you finding that for me.

Now that we’re in the early 21st century, I find that much of the Church’s magisterial declarations against Freemasonry is somewhat more tempered. In the sense that it focusses more on theological incompatibilities rather than any active and ongoing political conflict (if there even is any left) between the two bodies.

As I mentioned above, a large contributing factor to this simmering is because Freemasonry is in precipitous decline in most countries. In Anglophone regions, such as Australia, they are actually subject to the same demographic shifts that are impacting the Church: they primarily draw upon older Europeans who have some sort of openess to there being a deity (this being a requirement in most Anglo-American lodges, not sure about Continental).

The way that Freemasonry is going in Australia is similar to some of the smaller, liberal Protestant churches: concentrating all their efforts into their charitable institutions because their actual believing communities (that is, lodges) are expected to be extinct or a minimal going concern in a few decades.

 

[JSRG]

There is a short booklet on the Alta Vendita which was the plan to subvert the Church. Pope Leo XIII wanted it to be published so the world would know and be alert. Google “Alta Vendita” and it will come up. In short, almost everything the Freemasons planned 200 years ago has come to pass.

The Alta Vendita were of the Carbonari, not the Freemasons. While there were some similarities between the two, they were still different organizations.

 

[PSUCath]

Clearly, from a Catholic perspective, this would be dangerous as the many different religions teach many different ideas and the Church teaches that Catholicism has the fullness of the truth.

In the sense that it focusses more on theological incompatibilities rather than any active and ongoing political conflict (if there even is any left) between the two bodies.

Two excellent points. Fredystairs, thank you for the two CA articles. I think what they show is that Bithyninan hit the nail on the head with the point on the shifting focus of the Magisterium from the political conflict to the theological problems. I live in Pennsylvania, and the reason why I asked this question was that it seems like the American Freemasons are just a group of guys hanging out, not secret operatives trying to take out the Church. The CA article says:

In the United States, Freemasonry is often little more than a social club.

This seems to line up with my knowledge of the Masons. Thanks to Bithynian, I now have some reading on some of the more sinister historical motives of European Masonry. I also think that Bithynian’s point of the declining presence of Freemasonry around the world is a contributing factor to some of the confusion about the once-aggressive, now slightly more relaxed stance of the Church against the Craft.

Here is my new understanding of Freemasonry (feel free to correct any errors you see):

On a purely theological level, Freemasonry is incompatible with Catholicism. Its emphasis on naturalism, religious indifference, and deism are contrary to the Catholic understanding of a tangible, loving God. The secret ritualistic nature of the Craft opposes the Catholic’s duty to spread the Good News of the Gospel for all to hear, and the threatened punishment of bodily injury for revealing these secrets should be regarded as innately contrary to Catholic moral teaching.

Historically, Freemasons have been involved in liberalization efforts in many countries, spreading ideas of anticlericalism in their wake. In many of these countries, Freemasonry quickly became the face of violence against Catholics. Because of their political opposition to Christianity, many popes have rightfully issued scathing condemnations of the dangers of Freemasonry.

In a modern sense, Freemasons have lost most, if not all, of its anti-Catholic sentiments. Especially in the United States and Australia, the main goal of Freemasons is fellowship and fraternity among its members, and have done good in their communities through Shriner’s organizations. As a result, the 1983 code of canon law removed the punishment of ex-communication for men who attempt to be simultaneously Catholic and Mason. That being said, the Masons still hold a backward idea of who God is, and as a result, Catholics who are also Masons are in a state of grave sin and should not receive the Eucharist.

 

[fredystairs]

As a result, the 1983 code of canon law removed the punishment of ex-communication for men who attempt to be simultaneously Catholic and Mason.

According to the CA article “What does the Church teach about Freemasonry” the excommunication ban remains in place. It was not explicitly mentioned in the 1983 Code, but the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith did put out a notice that the ban was still in place, according to the article.

Pax

 

[Montrose]

All I want to know is why.

Did you not read Pope Leo’s document which I posted above. That plus the CDF 1983 declaration and 1985 follow up letter gives you all you need to know.
It now sounds like you think the Church is involved in a conspiracy.

 

[Bithynian]

its anti-Catholic sentiments

I’m honestly not sure that this generalisation is possible due to the very heterogenous nature of world Freemasonry. It would not surprise me if there are some Grand Lodges that have a more pronounced anti-Catholicism (i.e. identifying the Catholic Church as an ‘enemy of progress’ and all that), but whether they act on it (if they even can) is another matter altogether.

They’re certainly not anti-Catholic in Australia. But they’re not really anything, except gloriously irrelevant. The Anglican Diocese of Sydney (very evangelical) actually began excommunicating Freemason communicants about a decade or two ago, and ever since then their presence has rapidly dwindled. One is more likely to garner a reaction of polite surprise if one broached the subject of a Freemasonry, a bit like telling people you bought a VHS player or that your accountant telegraphed you the latest ticker tape report of your investment in a top hat manufacturer.

 

[Kaninchen]

I wonder whether the decline in the Church’s socio-political significance means that anti-Catholicism is growingly irrelevant?

PS, I’m disqualified from being a Freemason so have no inside knowledge.

 

[Bithynian]

I wonder whether the decline in the Church’s socio-political significance means that anti-Catholicism is growingly irrelevant?

I would think so, yes. I mentioned it in my previous post somewhere, but Freemasonry and Christianity are largely fighting against the same changes in demographics and socio-cultural processes: increasing older members, a death rate that is catching up, difficulty attracting younger people, decline in the belief of a deity, less interest in voluntary and community organisations, etc. It’s a mutual decline in relevance in many parts of the Western world.

 

[PSUCath]

It now sounds like you think the Church is involved in a conspiracy.

You must be fun to hang out with.

 

[Montrose]

You must be fun to hang out with.

You are the one who talks about conspiracies and wanting evidence as if you do not trust the Church.

 

[AlNg]

Freemasonry worships Lucifer. That’s from the official book of Freemasonry Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike.

What page is that on? The Freemasons deny it. See:
https://grandlodgeofvirginia.org/myths-of-freemasonry/

 

[Athanasiy]

I think that in the post-Soviet space, the caste of thieves in law, gradually mutated into the mighty Masonic clans.
In the early Soviet times, they collaborated with the authorities helping to give the norm in prison camps, through the slave labor of ordinary men. (read Varlam Shalamov, about the origins of “thieves in law caste”)
The authorities closed their eyes to the fact that these castes did not work in prisons and the prisoners were afraid of them because of the cruel reprisals against those who challenged their prison laws.
In the post-Soviet period, the same very organized criminal underworld in the service of the government became the mafia, and continued the terror in a different form, having more and more power and money.
Now they can influence elections, have their own pocket political parties.
But this Freemasonry is a Kremlin heritage.
It has mutated, but it was born in a strict hierarchy of organized order, similar to religious order.
But, I have a question, if creative or spiritual people need money for noble purposes, is it a sin to ask money from these people who are now oligarchs and big people?
And if you also remember that every sinner can repent and change?
It happens that people from the mafia, like rats cornered, make friends with priests and fork out for deeds of mercy.
All of us are human beings but, probably the main problems are - when priests and conscientious people become very dependent on privileges from such people,because, because of friendship with the oligarchs, millions of peoples are sometimes sacrificed in political intrigues.

 

[Pattylt]

From my outside perspective, I think the Church takes a once bitten, twice shy attitude to the Freemasons. Even though they are no longer a political body and are slowly shrinking in numbers and influence, the danger still lurks that if things change down the road and their numbers start increasing, it’s too easy to return to the anticlericalism of the past. Better to be safe than sorry, so to speak.

 

[MtnDwellar]

My experience with the Masons must be different than yours. I attended a St John’s day celebration. They referred to me as the profane one. I was allowed to participate in part of the ritual. I was isolated behind a curtain for the rest.

 

[PSUCath]

What page is that on? The Freemasons deny it

I actually read this before I posted my original question and it’s part of the reason why I was confused. Assuming this source is reputable, saying the Masons worship Lucifer is more than a straw-man, it’s downright untrue. I feel like it must be like a Protestant saying, “Catholics worship Mary,” despite us saying time and time again that it’s just an anti-Catholic lie.

I think we’ve come to the conclusion that modern, American Freemasonry is a shadow of its European ancestors, both in terms of numbers and anti-Catholic ideology. As CA puts it: “In the United States, Freemasonry is often little more than a social club.”

Even though they are no longer a political body and are slowly shrinking in numbers and influence, the danger still lurks that if things change down the road and their numbers start increasing, it’s too easy to return to the anticlericalism of the past. Better to be safe than sorry, so to speak.

Well said; I think you hit the nail on the head. Even though modern Masonry is irrelevant and weak, give them too much leeway and they will return to the anti-Catholic menace of centuries past.

as if you do not trust the Church.

Not sure when asking legitimate questions about the reason why the Church ruled the way it did on Freemasonry turned into “not trusting the Church,” but you do you I guess.

 

[AlbMagno]

https://m.ncregister.com/daily-news...er-freemason-officer-converted-to-catholicism

This is a former Freemason who demonstrates that current members aren’t so inoffensive as they say (it’s not proved that they are satanists, but they seem to be influential actors against the Catholic position, in issues like abortion).

And there are more testimonies like this of former Freemasons, all with similar information (we even had one in CAF some months ago).