What about hell?

[Ahimsa]

So are Catholics (Eastern and Western) permitted to hold the view that God’s presence is hell for the eternally damned?

If I remember correctly, Thomas Aquinas argued that it is impossible for anything to exist without that something being given existence by God. So that would seem to include gehenna, as well as every other “thing” or state of being.

However, very rarely would you hear Latin theology saying explicitly that even in gehenna, God is present – though, logically, that would have to be case. St. Paul said that in Him we have our very being. Well, those in gehenna would not be excluded from that presence.

Having said that, it is true that gehenna, in the Latin tradition, is often described as the state of lacking God, or the eternal loss of God, but I wouldn’t take that too literally.

JPII wrote:
“In the study of revealed truth East and West have used different methods and approaches in understanding and confessing divine things. It is hardly surprising, then, if sometimes one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed them better. In such cases, these various theological formulations are often to be considered complementary rather than conflicting.”
The Eastern idea that God’s presence is gehenna for those who reject Him, may thus be seen as complementary to the Western idea that gehenna is the eternal loss of God. (However, I personally view the Eastern idea as coming “nearer to a full appreciation” of what gehenna is.)

 

[Wesley7]

Well, it seems to me that there is a lot of room for thought on the subject then. I believe the latter that you put forth. And that’s the teaching of the OCA. (At least from the priest I learned from.) It seems to be very widely held. I’d be interested on seeing how the Orthodox differ on the subject. Any good links?

On the OCA website, there’s a priest named Fr. John Matusiak ~ you can send him emails and he will reply with answers . . oca.org/questions . .

 

[Cecilianus]

Cardinal Newman thought largely the same thing and he was a Roman Catholic priest (not bishop), not Orthodox.

It was also taught by Blessed Juliana of Norwich, a Latin if there ever was one, and by the very scholastic Roman Catholic theologian Fr. Karl Rahner, and by the contemporary Roman Catholic theologian Peter Kreeft.

Personally, I don’t regard the two views as contradictory. Refusing to let divine grace divinize you is indeed an essential “separation” from God - but you can never leave His presence, for “even in hell there I am with you”, to loosely quote the Psalm, and for such a soul this presence would be torture.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I’ve been reading up on St. Mark of Ephesus. Pardon that I call him a Saint, the Orthodox do and the Catholics don’t. I know he was hard on the Catholic Church, but I think his explanation of Orthodox faith was brilliant. I just wish he practiced more charity and didn’t have to call the Roman Catholics a bunch of heretics. But that tirade aside, I think he is a great defender of the faith.

Dear Constantine,

No need for pardon - one may find icons of the Pillars of Orthodoxy with St Mark of Ephesus in Ukrainian Catholic Churches and I met one RC priest who had it in his home . . .

There was, at one time, a UGCC priest who wanted to establish a brotherhood in honour of St Mark of Ephesus . . .

In fact, Mark Eugenikos came to Florence as a unionist and only asked the West to do one thing to re-unite East and West - remove the Filioque. As we’ve seen here time and again, in Greek, the Filioque would definitely be a heresy and there was really no way then to bridge the “language barrier” for many.

Upon reunion of the Churches, Mark of Ephesus will continue to be venerated by the Orthodox East (although perhaps with new services that call the West a few less names ).

The Ukrainian Akathist to St Josaphat went through a similar change were direct thrusts against the Orthodox in the service itself were removed.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

If God punished for educational purposes, then that means that, once the “lesson” has been learned, the punishment will stop.

Eastern Orthodoxy doesn’t teach that “eternal damnation” will stop. So, the “discomfort” felt in eternal damnation is not for educational purposes, because (presumably) the person in eternal hell will never “learn”.

However, there is a widespread teaching in Eastern Orthodoxy (not universally accepted, though) that even “eternal hell” is a result of a person’s experience of the Love of God: God’s Love is experienced as pain and suffering, to those people who reject His Love.

Dear Ahimsa,

Could you send me a private e-mail to explain about “Jesus Buddhism?” The Buddha, as you know, is in the Catholic and Orthodox calendars as “St Ioasaph” under November 27.

Alex

 

[rinnie]

I was told by an Eastern Catholic priest, that hell was separation from God.

Eastern Orthodox believe that the presence of God is hell or Heaven depending on the persons spiritual state.

These views seem drastically different from each other. Can I still be Catholic and hold the Orthodox view?

Because when a person goes to hell that person by his own free will has CHOSEN to be separated from God. God gives us free will to love him or reject him.

But on the same token God is everywhere. He can be everywhere at all times. But he does not separate himself from us, we separate ourself from him is we choose hell over his love.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Kev,

I was told by an Eastern Catholic priest, that hell was separation from God.

Eastern Orthodox believe that the presence of God is hell or Heaven depending on the persons spiritual state.

These views seem drastically different from each other. Can I still be Catholic and hold the Orthodox view?

AFAIK, there is no dogmatic definition of “Hell” in the Catholic Church. In the Latin Catholic Church, “separation from God” is not the doctrinal definition of “Hell,” but is, rather, the doctrinal definition of “sin,” according to the Council of Trent.

So if an Eastern uses the term “separation from God” to refer to Hell, it should best be taken in the context of the Eastern Tradition, not the Western Tradition. Brother ConstantineTG gave a great explanation of how the phrase can be understood according to the Eastern Tradition.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Ahimsa]

In the Latin Catholic Church, “separation from God” is not the doctrinal definition of “Hell,” but is, rather, the doctrinal definition of “sin,” according to the Council of Trent.

According to the CCC, 1035, “The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God…”

 

[Cecilianus]

According to the CCC, 1035, “The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God…”

Hell is the consummation of sin, just as Heaven is the consummation of holiness. Holiness in this life is the root or seed of Heaven, just as any mortal sin truly is Hell though it may not be accompanied with as complete a perception of its gravity in this life as in the next. As Milton had Satan say, “Wherever I am, is Hell.”

 

[rinnie]

Hell is the consummation of sin, just as Heaven is the consummation of holiness. Holiness in this life is the root or seed of Heaven, just as any mortal sin truly is Hell though it may not be accompanied with as complete a perception of its gravity in this life as in the next. As Milton had Satan say, “Wherever I am, is Hell.”

Which would be pretty much in aggrememt with the teaching of the CCC would you not agree?

 

[Cecilianus]

Which would be pretty much in aggrememt with the teaching of the CCC would you not agree?

Yup.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

So are Catholics (Eastern and Western) permitted to hold the view that God’s presence is hell for the eternally damned? I only ask because I’ve been going back and forth between Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I love eastern spirituality, but I’m kind of confused on the role it plays in Catholicism. I would have no problem becoming an Eastern Catholic as long as I know that outside of papal authority and the filioque, my beliefs would be completely accepted. I see the filioque and papal authority to be a non-issue.

There are lots of EC’s who see the filioque and papal authority as non-issues - you are Eastern Catholic already!

Alex

 

[Wesley7]

What about hell?

In the Bible, the Christian doctrine of Hell is called ‘Gehenna’ , ‘Hades’ or 'Sheol as places of punishment.

For me, belief in Hell also means belief in a Heaven where God is. . .