What about Mary?

[afiala2]

I have always been extremely confused why other “christian” denominations have used Catholics’ love of Mary, the Mother of God, and her rightful place of honor in the Catholic Faith/Church as grounds that Catholics are going to hell. Is it simply the ignorance of them thinking Catholics worship her as a god? Or do they simply not like Mary?

Catholics follow the 4th commandment: Honor your Father and Mother. We are brothers and sisters of Christ therefore we can’t forget who our Mother is. She is a wonderful example of doing the Father’s will and has a most special place in human salvation history. When someone claims to be Christian and doesn’t honor Our Mother Mary, I just assume they don’t study the Bible. Luke 1:48, I don’t ever hear them refer to Mary as Blessed Virgin Mary. They don’t pray the Hail Mary or appear to ask for Mary’s prayers at all. This confuses me as a Christian. They believe having a relationship with Jesus is important, so why is it not important to have a relationship with His mother (or at least acknowledge her in a special way)?

Non-Catholic Christians who don’t honor Mary: Why don’t you honor Mary if you claim to be Christian and in some cases boldly claim Bible believing Christian?

John 2:5 …Do whatever he tells you.
youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA&feature=related

 

[Telstar]

I have always been extremely confused why other “christian” denominations have used Catholics’ love of Mary, the Mother of God, and her rightful place of honor in the Catholic Faith/Church as grounds that Catholics are going to hell. Is it simply the ignorance of them thinking Catholics worship her as a god? Or do they simply not like Mary?

Catholics follow the 4th commandment: Honor your Father and Mother. We are brothers and sisters of Christ therefore we can’t forget who our Mother is. She is a wonderful example of doing the Father’s will and has a most special place in human salvation history. When someone claims to be Christian and doesn’t honor Our Mother Mary, I just assume they don’t study the Bible. Luke 1:48, I don’t ever hear them refer to Mary as Blessed Virgin Mary. They don’t pray the Hail Mary or appear to ask for Mary’s prayers at all. This confuses me as a Christian. They believe having a relationship with Jesus is important, so why is it not important to have a relationship with His mother (or at least acknowledge her in a special way)?

Non-Catholic Christians who don’t honor Mary: Why don’t you honor Mary if you claim to be Christian and in some cases boldly claim Bible believing Christian?

John 2:5 …Do whatever he tells you.
youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA&feature=related

That’s a very good question, but considering the fact that they go on and on about how they have a ‘personal relationship’ with Jesus, but at the same time they won’t even think about praying to Him (which means that they really can’t even talk to Him directly, since ‘pray to’ = ‘talk to’), and He is God. How can they even consider that they have a ‘personal relationship’ with Jesus that way?

 

[ratsaj]

Of all the creatures the Almighty has created none was more undeserving of the offenses that Our Blessed Mother has been subject.And no one in creation is more deserving of all the praise and honour that is given to Our Lady.When the Final Judgement is rendered to mankind who persevere in the grace of God,our place in heaven will be determined by how we each regarded Our Lady.The same for the damned. Those who suffer most in hell will suffer greatest by the disrespect or blasphemy they showed Our Lady.No creature was ever so gentle,loving,compassionate,forgiving,etc, then the remarkable Woman-Mary of Nazareth.I am so ecstatically overjoyed that one of our own race-our sister, has found so much pleasure with God.Our sister,given to us to be Our Mother by God Incarnate in her Flesh,her Son ,Our Brother,Our Lord And Saviour,Our True King Sovereign Majesty,Jesus Christ-gave Her to Us and We to Her in this Life-Blood bond from the Cross of Our Redemption.We all have every obligation and NEED to defend HER HONOUR and NAME whenever called upon and to make reparation for all the insult ,irreverance,and blasphemy done to her.To so offend Our Mother is to do so to Our God.------Educate in a gentle way those Christians who are denying themselves of the comfort and merciful love and compassion of THEIR MOTHER given to us all by Our God.She herself desires a strong presence in our lives to better aid us in serving to completion the Divine Will.

 

[ufamtobie]

I have always been extremely confused why other “christian” denominations have used Catholics’ love of Mary, the Mother of God, and her rightful place of honor in the Catholic Faith/Church as grounds that Catholics are going to hell. Is it simply the ignorance of them thinking Catholics worship her as a god? Or do they simply not like Mary?

Catholics follow the 4th commandment: Honor your Father and Mother. We are brothers and sisters of Christ therefore we can’t forget who our Mother is. She is a wonderful example of doing the Father’s will and has a most special place in human salvation history. When someone claims to be Christian and doesn’t honor Our Mother Mary, I just assume they don’t study the Bible. Luke 1:48, I don’t ever hear them refer to Mary as Blessed Virgin Mary. They don’t pray the Hail Mary or appear to ask for Mary’s prayers at all. This confuses me as a Christian. They believe having a relationship with Jesus is important, so why is it not important to have a relationship with His mother (or at least acknowledge her in a special way)?

Non-Catholic Christians who don’t honor Mary: Why don’t you honor Mary if you claim to be Christian and in some cases boldly claim Bible believing Christian?

John 2:5 …Do whatever he tells you.
youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA&feature=related

Afiala, it is sad that most Protestants don’t listen to the Holy Spirit, that all generations shall call Her blessed. Yes, the Holy Spirit, for it was the Holy Spirit who spoke to through Elizabeth when she said: Luke 1; 41-42 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Why are so Many Protestants afraid to lift up their voice and say like Elizabeth “Blessed art thou among women, and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb”? Or say like Angel Gabriel: Hail Mary Full of Grace The Lord with you. Or why can’t they too leap for Joy like baby John in Elizabeth womb, when He heard Mary’s voice. Did not Jesus Christ say: Matt 21: 16 And said to him: Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus said to them: Yea, have you never read: Out of the mouth of infants and of sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

Could it be Fear by saying such a thing to Mary, may make them, Catholic?

Protestants, How would your Loved one feel, if you ignored their Mother? How Does Jesus Feel?

All Generation shall call me Blessed said Mary, and if you only think of Her, at Christmas that is not enough a pagan does as much.

Ufam Tobie

 

[wardrandolph]

Thank you for posting this.May our Lord Bless You,Rocky.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

It’s probably because some Catholics are excessive with their devotion to Mary, and the Church as a whole (at least apparently) doesn’t do anything to correct such practices.

The Orthodox are much less effusive, and while they clearly have devotion to the Virgin Mary, everything they do with regards to her obviously points directly to the incarnation of Christ.

 

[Godith]

That’s a very good question, but considering the fact that they go on and on about how they have a ‘personal relationship’ with Jesus, but at the same time they won’t even think about praying to Him (which means that they really can’t even talk to Him directly, since ‘pray to’ = ‘talk to’), and He is God. How can they even consider that they have a ‘personal relationship’ with Jesus that way?

I’m confused as well. I never heard of any Christian who didn’t pray to Jesus. As you say, to have relationship with someone, you have to talk to them…

Non-Catholic Christians who don’t honor Mary: Why don’t you honor Mary if you claim to be Christian and in some cases boldly claim Bible believing Christian?

Firstly, I just want to say that, since I did some research about Catholicism, I understand the difference between the worship that is offered to God, and the honour that is given to the saints, particularly Mary. I have learnt that praying to the saints is like asking your Christian friend who is next to you at church to pray for you, and separate from worship which is God’s alone. For this reason, I was quite happy, when I visited a Mass recently, to stand with the congregation and say ‘Hail Mary’. It’s out of the Bible, after all.

Why don’t we non-Catholics honour Mary as Catholics do? It’s got nothing to do with not liking her (what’s not to like? ). I don’t think it’s intended as dishonour, either. I’ve never checked this out, but if you said something that was actively disrespectful about Mary to any Christian, I think they would be hurt and offended by that. We don’t deliberately turn our backs on her, it’s more that we don’t have a relationship with her at all.

The reason we don’t honour Mary, I think, is because we are very wary of anything approaching idolatry. We only pray to God, and not the saints, in case it might lead to a temptation to idolise that person instead of, or alongside, God. To Protestant eyes, someone kneeling in prayer in front of a statue of Mary looks the same as someone kneeling in prayer in front of a crucifix. When you understand, you know it’s not the same, but I think we can be forgiven that misunderstanding, since there are few external differences.

The iconoclasts during the Reformation destroyed the interiors of many English churches, removing or breaking all the statues and icons and things, for fear they were drawing people into idol worship. That extreme fear of the sin of idolatry, or even the potential for it, (it’s pretty extreme to smash your own church up, in my view) is still part of our culture as non-Catholic Christians, I think. The lack of honour for Mary is a well-intentioned attempt to make sure people, particularly those who aren’t Christian or those who are new to the faith, don’t get confused about who is being worshipped.

I agree with Fabius, that the extreme devotion to Mary shown by some Catholics, and seemingly not corrected, makes the whole thing worse. It puts people off even considering what the proper place of Mary in a Christian’s life should be, because they see that and thing, well, that’s not the Gospel, so I don’t want anything to do with it.

On a personal level, reading stuff on this forum has made me think more about Mary, and how special she is. This will seem weird to Catholics, but in all my Christian life, I’d never really thought about her at all. Some stuff, like the Immaculate Conception, seems very odd to me, but I can totally grasp why Mary should be given a place of honour, because of her role in salvation history.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Read carefully the Annunciation. Take “particular” notice of what the Angel Gabriel stated. He “is” one of the three “named” archangels which stand before “GOD”. Not maybe, not kinda, not sort of,… DEFINATELY.

Read “carefully” what this Angel stated and how he responded throughout all his Biblical dialogue. Note this carefully, then re-read how he responds to the Blessed Mother. The last sentence the Angel states is “For with GOD ‘nothing’ shall be impossible” .

The Angel Gabriel “acknowledges” what ‘lucifer’ would not. And that “is” Gods Word and Law. This fact is no different with the Archangels Michael or Rafael. In fact the war in Heaven started over this issue of “Jesus” and “Mary”.

Now, listen very carefully to this…God acknowledges “OBEDIENCE” to His Law. If you do not follow His law, then who’s do you follow??? If you do not believe “HIS” book, then what Book do you believe???

There is “NO” mistake in this teaching, None, Zero, Zip. It doesn’t exist. God does not acknowledge, Luck, chance, satan. rabbits foots or your incorrect thinking. He acknowledges those who follow HIS LAW…“PERIOD”. The Blessed Mother is HIS LAW. Its not going away, nor is Christ, nor are His Angels, nor is the Father, or any other law HE PLACED HERE.

Tribulation is not the final Word, its Gods Blessing. Understand the Law of Focus we live by. Its a correction of Distraction and Concentration which equals Focus through repetition thus “perfection”. I “do not know” WHAT YOU are good at. But I do know you followed this LAW to be good at it. Be it you observed the Law or not “is” not of question, you followed it, its a FACT.

If you do not “follow” the Law of God, its does not, nor will not, make it Go AWAY. Man did not place it HERE…GOD DID. “He” walks past your disobedience and only acknowledges your obedience.

Your going to make a choice to “believe” somebody, if you do not believe GOD, who will you believe? Read again now, what the Angel Gabriel stated to Zacharias. The Angel stated the SAME WORD to BOTH… “FEAR NOT”. Then what happens with this conversation? The ANGEL corrects "error once"with the WORD. And the WORD is…

"I AM GABRIEL, THAT STAND IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD; I AM SENT TO SPEAK TO THEE, AND TO SHOW THEE THESE GLAD TIDINGS! He is DONE!!! “HERE” Zacharias didn’t “get it” He was a very Blessed Priest. Yes He was Blessed and no time was wasted explaining to him???

If you didn’t GET IT? Than you’ll have to think about it MORE. Its NO-ONES JOB TO MAKE YOU GET IT. ITS GODS WORD AND LAW.

If you do not observe the LAW we PRAY FOR YOU… If you do not listen to Gods Angel than its beyond my capacity to teach you. WE PRAY FOR YOU.

The LAW STANDS, its not by accident the ARCHWAY of “MOST” non-modern CATHOLIC CHURCHS display the symbol of GABRIEL and the BLESSED MOTHER. YOU PASS THROUGH THE Incarnation to reach the Cross at the OTHER END.

I do NOT know HOW GOD works in YOUR life. I do know HOW HE worked in mine. Its not an easy lesson to wrap your mind around to clearly understand. The Virtues of Our Lady are X10. If you didn’t grasp all of them re-read the Saints. They exist and are real.

You talked about a “personal relationship” with God above. I can only show you my experience. God did acknowledge Me before I acknowledged the Blessed Mother. But very different. Basically I walked in tribulation and faith a very long time observing Gods Law of Focus above. Those who walked the path before me taught me, and I listened. The real lessons are few and far between, if you do not listen they walk past you in humility shaking there heads. You can’t be taught what you refuse to learn. I didn’t listen to the lesson on the Blessed Mother for a very long time. My Mother understood this lesson perfectly and observed it her entire life as my Grandmother did. Yes it dumbfounded me a very long time. They tried to explain miracles and God and Our Lady. I couldn’t conceive it, and they don’t spend but so much time with Denial. As I try to explain, they pray for what you will not accept. I do also today, it not incorrect, in fact its perfectly correct.

One day I could not answer my own question “WHY” honestly anymore, and I relented, and went back to basics and listened. I also stopped being LAZY with God. And began over to correctly “worship” HIM and HIS KINGDOM. ALL THE GLORY IS HIS. The mistake spoken about above, I never made. I never doubted Gods World, I imperfectly thought I did not have to acknowledge Our Lady. The what you must and do not have to do part was very blurred for me. I understood the Word incorrectly.

When I “finally” acknowledged GODs Word correctly, my personal relationship changed immediately!!! I don’t know how this crumbles from person to person. I’m sorry I wish I could be more help. I still do not “perfectly” follow Gods Laws. I still “practice”. And very open minded today. The open minded part I compounded by being traumatized as a young adult by Violence.

No-one can make you understand but yourself. Are your getting this??? You do have to listen to others “who know”. This is not the Mystery. The Mystery part is GOD. If you don’t understand this, I will assume you also don’t understand the Holy Family in Gods Kingdom. St Joseph is a highly venerated Saint, make no mistake here either. Just read what St Teresa of Avila states about him, all the worlds mystics “listen” to Saint Teresa of Avila. Thats not be accident either.

Right the Incarnation stands at the arch of most Catholic Churchs, at the other end is the Cross. It doesn’t change GODS LAW. There is no over abundance of veneration to the Blessed Mother, there is no such thing. What there is, is a LACK of clear understanding

Peace,

 

[Hail_Linus]

I believe this is something that slowly developed over time. This first began simply with the idea that one should not pray to the dead to pray to God on their behalf. However, by the 20th century the word pray began to lose its everyday use. People began to use the word pray solely for religious purposes. If you read the old classics by authors like Charles Dickens, you will see that the word “pray” was a very common word that had nothing to do with worship in particular. Even simple phrases like “I pray that you forgive me” had nothing to do with God. When people hear that phrase today they think it means “I pray (to God) that you forgive me.” Back then, however, that phrase would literally mean that you were praying to that specific person for their forgiveness.

For many, the word “pray” eventually became synonymous with “worship”. In fact some people actually think the “Our Father” is some form of worship but it is really only a prayer (with some worship mixed in). Once “prayer” became synonymous with “worship” then many came to the natural conclusion that Catholics were not just asking Mary for her prayers but were actually worshiping her.

 

[TimothyH]

It’s probably because some Catholics are excessive with their devotion to Mary, and the Church as a whole (at least apparently) doesn’t do anything to correct such practices.

The Orthodox are much less effusive, and while they clearly have devotion to the Virgin Mary, everything they do with regards to her obviously points directly to the incarnation of Christ.

Pope John Paul II consecrated himself to Mary according to the Act of Total Consecration to Jesus Through Mary by St. Louis de Montfort. Consecration to Mary is often called “Holy slavery to Mary” or “Slavery to Jesus through Mary.” Blessed John Paul II stated that discovering “Total Devotion to the Blessed Virgin” by St. Lousi de Montfort was the turning point in his spiritual life.

I would point out that many eastern prayers to Mary are blatant requests for salvation from her hands, such as “Most holy Theotokos, save us!” as recited regularly by Eastern Catholics who pray the Rule of St. Pachomius. I’m not sure if you have ever gone to an orthodox or Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy. The Eastern Orthodox Churches I have attended were rife with Marian doveotion. Many of the Eastern Churches feature overt prayers to Mary as part of every Divine Liturgy.

But suffice it to say that when we see someone praying the rosary or vernerating a statue of Mary, we don’t know someone has in their heart and how pleasing their soul is to God. If one such as Blessed John Paul II was consecrated to Mary, perhapse we shouldn’t lable other Catholics with similar devotions “excessive.”

-Tim-

 

[afiala2]

It’s probably because some Catholics are excessive with their devotion to Mary, and the Church as a whole (at least apparently) doesn’t do anything to correct such practices.

The Orthodox are much less effusive, and while they clearly have devotion to the Virgin Mary, everything they do with regards to her obviously points directly to the incarnation of Christ.

When is it not obvious that Mary directs us to Christ?

Statement 1:I have a great love for my mother.

Statement 2: Aren’t you being a little to loving towards your mother? Shouldn’t someone come in and stop the devotion these people have for their mother? Apparently no one is going to stop these people from loving their mother, I really think this needs to be corrected?

Who is a child of Mary, a brother or sister of Christ, the person who says statement 1 or statement 2?

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

So the dragon (satan) and his army are waging war with her (Mary’s) offspring. So what side of the conflict are you on? You have Two Choices you are either with him or her, which one is it going to be?

Ark of the New Covenant

youtube.com/watch?v=6d7e5zpH_8I&feature=fvw

 

[Cavaradossi]

Pope John Paul II consecrated himself to Mary according to the Act of Total Consecration to Jesus Through Mary by St. Louis de Montfort. Consecration to Mary is often called “Holy slavery to Mary” or “Slavery to Jesus through Mary.” Blessed John Paul II stated that discovering “Total Devotion to the Blessed Virgin” by St. Lousi de Montfort was the turning point in his spiritual life.

I would point out that many eastern prayers to Mary are blatant requests for salvation from her hands, such as “Most holy Theotokos, save us!” as recited regularly by Eastern Catholics who pray the Rule of St. Pachomius. I’m not sure if you have ever gone to an orthodox or Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy. The Eastern Orthodox Churches I have attended were rife with Marian doveotion. Many of the Eastern Churches feature overt prayers to Mary as part of every Divine Liturgy.

But suffice it to say that when we see someone praying the rosary or vernerating a statue of Mary, we don’t know someone has in their heart and how pleasing their soul is to God. If one such as Blessed John Paul II was consecrated to Mary, perhapse we shouldn’t lable other Catholics with similar devotions “excessive.”

I don’t know if I can agree with what you’ve written. I don’t think most Eastern Christians understand the line “most holy Theotokos save us!” as being a request for the Theotokos herself to save us from her hands (as opposed to through her prayers to God). To do so would be a grave theological blunder. Most prayers to the Theotokos make mention of her role as humanity’s perpetual intercessor before God; that particular prayer, however, owing to its brevity, does not, but that doesn’t change the understanding of what it means to pray to the Theotokos for salvation and deliverance.

To get a more well-rounded view of how Eastern Christians view the Theotokos, I would suggest reading the prayers from the small supplicatory canon to the Theotokos, which properly emphasize her role as the birthgiver of Christ and her special role as an intercessor for us.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Pope John Paul II consecrated himself to Mary according to the Act of Total Consecration to Jesus Through Mary by St. Louis de Montfort. Consecration to Mary is often called “Holy slavery to Mary” or “Slavery to Jesus through Mary.” Blessed John Paul II stated that discovering “Total Devotion to the Blessed Virgin” by St. Lousi de Montfort was the turning point in his spiritual life.

I would point out that many eastern prayers to Mary are blatant requests for salvation from her hands, such as “Most holy Theotokos, save us!” as recited regularly by Eastern Catholics who pray the Rule of St. Pachomius. I’m not sure if you have ever gone to an orthodox or Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy. The Eastern Orthodox Churches I have attended were rife with Marian doveotion. Many of the Eastern Churches feature overt prayers to Mary as part of every Divine Liturgy.

But suffice it to say that when we see someone praying the rosary or vernerating a statue of Mary, we don’t know someone has in their heart and how pleasing their soul is to God. If one such as Blessed John Paul II was consecrated to Mary, perhapse we shouldn’t lable other Catholics with similar devotions “excessive.”

-Tim-

Well, first I’d like to mention that since I’m not Roman Catholic, the fact that Pope John Paul II consecrated himself to Mary doesn’t comfort me very much, in fact it highly disturbs me. The whole concept in itself is quite perplexing.

I understand the concept of celebrating Mary as a holy woman, as the highest ideal to which a Christian can aspire to, as understanding that her righteous and undying faith in God led to her being the temple in which Christ became incarnate. Totally get it. Totally understand and accept saintly intercession, and the high role of Mary in this.

But the whole ‘to Christ through Mary,’ ‘consecration to Mary, ‘the Immaculate Heart of Mary triumphing’’ and other things seem to clearly take the focus off of Christ and to Mary. I’m well aware of those Orthodox prayers, but it’s rather obvious that the Orthodox don’t see it as Mary literally saving us. Literally everything they associate with the Virgin Mary always refers back to the incarnation, and her role as God-bearer.

So the dragon (satan) and his army are waging war with her (Mary’s) offspring. So what side of the conflict are you on? You have Two Choices you are either with him or her, which one is it going to be?

That’s not the point.
The point is that some Catholics do not seem to understand that Mary is not a fourth member of the Trinity. The Catholic Catechism seems to offer a much more balanced view of Mary, but when I hear individual Catholics say things like ‘Praise to Jesus and Mary…’ it throws me off.

 

[TrueLight]

To get a more well-rounded view of how Eastern Christians view the Theotokos, I would suggest reading the prayers from the small supplicatory canon to the Theotokos, which properly emphasize her role as the birthgiver of Christ and her special role as an intercessor for us.

Cavaradossi,

Is this printed online? Do you have a link? Thanks.

 

[Julian0404]

GARTY TAYLOR:

Well said, thank you for not turning from the truth, but instead stating it without apology. And welcome home.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Cavaradossi,

Is this printed online? Do you have a link? Thanks.

Here’s the service of the small supplicatory canon to the Theotokos: goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/paraklesis
For good measure, here’s a link to Akathist hymn to the Theotokos: legionofmarytidewater.com/prayers/stand.htm

Both are texts commonly used by Eastern Christians.

 

[Brywan]

Instead of assuming the worst of some Protestants because they don’t honor Mary, I think we should look at their reasoning and assume the best of them…

For them, what the Catholic church teaches about Mary borders on idolatry. And idolatry is a serious sin. They think that Mary is somehow taking the place of Christ in our lives. And NOTHING, NO-ONE should ever supplant Christ. Period. So in their limited understanding, they are acting and believing in a way which is commendable. I don’t believe that God will hold them accountable for what they believe in ignorance.

We have a lot of work to do to correct centuries of mis-understanding. Having been a Catholic for over 10 years now, I can honestly say that Marian devotion has done nothing to pull me away from worship of the Holy Trinity. On the contrary, the ministry of Mary is to give us Christ–and everything the Catholic Church teaches about her draws us deeper into the mystery of the Godhead…

 

[GaryTaylor]

What Orthodox see has ZIP to do with what Catholics or Protestants see. Everyone has a different “skill”. I don’t know any Catholic who “thinks” Our Lady is part of the Trinity, only other person I ever heard that from was Mohammad.

There is “no-one” in the world who will love you more than your Mother. This dosen’t mean your Father doesn’t love you. But this is how it comes down the pipe. You can count on “one” hand how many people will REALLY be there for you when you need someone there. IMHO its been my Mother, Brother and Cousin, then MY WIFE. You may disagree or “think” differently, I wouldn’t care, I took the class, got the tee-shirt. And btw my wife just came last, which now makes her first. I have great respect for my father, however the truth is the truth. Mom will not leave those kids. Its a fact of life, and a law of the lands.

It breaks down the same way with My Family. My wife loves the kids just differently and in a profound different way than me. My son will talk and cry with my wife. He comes to me for the hard advice. He’s 15 and chasing my high school athletic records at the moment. Which I told him btw to not bother doing. He’s a great student and son, however, he insisted on doing this, now he’s a Junior and understanding the magnitude of effort that went into those records. Somehow he arrived at the concIusion natural ability was the key. I couldn’t correct the behavior, he “thought” he had some genetic Blessing which I assured him he didn’t have. He laughed and thought I was wrong, I said, well I love you and we shall see. My wife didn’t know, she didn’t play Football. I prayed for him, I seen the crash course coming a long time back. He’s paying very close attention again at the moment.

I don’t “force” him to listen. When you want to learn you ask in humility. I don’t know what he thought, nor is it relevant, he was wrong. I know these are very hard lessons when you don’t listen, I didn’t always listen either. Nor is it important how my wife teachs or how I teach. She runs the Third Shift, I run the First and we meet in the middle for the other Shift:shrug: Did I have natural abilty? Of course, it wasn’t the determining factor, it just put me ON THE FIELD. Chosing daily to work harder than everyone else was the lesson. NOW, he’s starting to see. Now lesson TWO begins.

There is “NO” Catholic Church in the world where Our Lady is worshipped or over venerated, placed before Christ or God the Father, its all nonsense. “Show me, Where is it???” It cannot be done but in someones MIND. Its doesn’t exist. In fact the truth is Our Lady isn’t even even really highly venerated by the “majority” of Catholic’s. Its a lesson even Catholics walk in ingorance with. I have been in this church since an infant Baptised. There is no grand veneration of Our Lady, and certainly no worship. Can an individual possibly do something wrong? Of course. I haven’t seen this. I have witnessed Catholic women to a larger degree than the men pray to Mary. Its just how it is. I don’t have male security issues. I had to scrap to get where I got.

When I don’t know, I ask those who do. I don’t “think” Our Lady interceeds. I “know” She does. I don’t know what She wears in Heaven, What they call Her their, what She does their, how much She is capible of. Do you even know what you are caplible of??? How would you possibly know what someone else is capible of?? Let alone the Blessed Mother in Gods Kingdom. We are students here together learning together.

Everyone has a different interest, yours is not mine. You probly have interests you know much better than I. When you dismiss anothers as nonsense, then you place yourself at a disadvantage for no good reason.

I don’t know, your skill, I do know, Your Skill is not the Catholic faith or Our Lady. I can assure you of this.

Yes, this has been a process of learning with an open mind. I sit in front of the class and ask lots of questions, how about you???

My point is this, Mothers have an ability to intercede for their children, Fathers do not have the same ability. Its a fact of life you will have to get use to. Another fact is man is confused about womens role in the world. She is NOT at a disadvantage to man. She is EQUAL. If fact I will even give it up to women, that they have an emotional stability that I believe men don’t have. I study the mind/behavior, and I’m convinced woman just deal with their feelings in a more effective, efficient way then men. Correctly at a much faster rate also in life. Yes woman have issues also, I get that too. All foolishness of image, facade, and other incorrect ideas of men don’t cry, and all nonsense which is not truth. Woman and men are not interacting correctly as we see in this society today overall. We are not where we are by accident. It happened for a reason. We need to understand the lesson. WE have to learn from loosing. Its how we learn. I don’t even remember my victorys. I remember the defeats. Thats where I learned not to lose… Clearly. They never go away. I’m pretty sure Jesus understood all this well. I don’t “think” He and Mary were close, its HIs Mother. What do suppose they said in Heaven, we don’t need Her she’s a woman, not God. Toss her aside.

Yes their is many dimensions to this. God is very deep, and its “why” we always feel like we are at the begining. Because of His infinate line, its much longer than YOURS or MINE. Everytime you understand something, yes you made progress, how much compared to Gods Wisdom, I would estimate it to be very small. Follow???

 

[Zenas]

I have always been extremely confused why other “christian” denominations have used Catholics’ love of Mary, the Mother of God, and her rightful place of honor in the Catholic Faith/Church as grounds that Catholics are going to hell. Is it simply the ignorance of them thinking Catholics worship her as a god? Or do they simply not like Mary?

No Christian denomination has ever expressed a dislike for Mary. Just because you don’t talk a lot about someone doesn’t mean you hate her. However, you have to put yourself in their shoes to understand their views. You seem to have a view of Mary as someone very important to your faith, and I don’t find fault with that. Protestants, on the other hand, are not accustomed to being surrounded with images of Mary. And they don’t believe in prayers to the saints so they don’t pray to Mary. She was a person in the Bible who was chosen to be the mother of Jesus. She is talked about at Christmas but is ignored most other times. (Not all other times, though. The Southern Baptist Sunday School lesson for tomorrow, Oct. 1, is on the wedding at Cana and the first of the seven signs of Christ.) So if someone is absent from your life you don’t give that person much thought.

Protestants are, for the most part, people of the book, i.e., the Bible. They believe what the Bible expressly teaches about Mary—and that isn’t very much. Mary is present in only 7 episodes in the Bible:

1. The nativity story of Matthew. Matthew 1-2.
2. The nativity story of Luke. Luke 1-2.
3. The wedding feast at Cana. John 2.
4. When Jesus was rejected by the people of Nazareth. Matthew 14; Mark 6.
5. When Jesus’ mother and brothers came to Him while He was teaching. Matthew 12; Luke 8.
6. At the foot of the cross. John 19.
7. In the upper room following the ascension. Acts 1.

Of those seven episodes, the only ones that tell us anything about Mary, other than her just being there, are the two nativity stories and the wedding feast. So, unless you spiritualize a lot of scripture (which Protestants don’t often do), we know relatively little about Mary. Certainly she has no status other than the woman who gave birth to Jesus. And don’t even talk about the teachings of Holy Tradition. If it isn’t in the Bible it is either not true or it is irrelevant.

You also have to understand that Protestant study of the Bible is pretty much rote memory. This isn’t to say they read everything out of context, they do a pretty good job of contextualizing. For instance, you could ask a well read Protestant what was Jesus teaching about when His mother and His brothers came to see Him and they could probably tell you. But Protestants are not taught to look for signs that synthesize the O.T. and the N.T., like those that were proffered in the You Tube video in your link. For instance, until I watched that You Tube, I never thought about the seven days of the creation being equivalent to the first seven days of the ministry of Christ. These things are taught in Protestant seminaries but they are not emphasized. And they are not taught in the churches at all.

So don’t be alarmed or puzzled that Protestants don’t pay much attention to Mary. The culture in which they live does not emphasize Mary and neither does their approach to Bible study.

Catholics follow the 4th commandment: Honor your Father and Mother. We are brothers and sisters of Christ therefore we can’t forget who our Mother is. She is a wonderful example of doing the Father’s will and has a most special place in human salvation history. When someone claims to be Christian and doesn’t honor Our Mother Mary, I just assume they don’t study the Bible. Luke 1:48, I don’t ever hear them refer to Mary as Blessed Virgin Mary. They don’t pray the Hail Mary or appear to ask for Mary’s prayers at all. This confuses me as a Christian. They believe having a relationship with Jesus is important, so why is it not important to have a relationship with His mother (or at least acknowledge her in a special way)?

As for following the Fourth Commandment, Protestants don’t regard Mary as their mother so they see no need to honor her as such. This is likely due to the Protestant approach to John 19:27, in which Jesus said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” Protestants take this to mean that John was to care for Mary as he would his own mother. Catholics believe this but they also take it to mean Jesus was proclaiming to all Christians that Mary was their spiritual mother.

As far as referring to Mary as the Blessed Virgin Mary, Protestants would answer, “Really? Are you serious? If we do that, shouldn’t we also refer to Jael as ‘blessed’? After all scripture says “Most blessed of women is Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite.” [Judges 5:24]. It just seems a little over the top.

John 2:5 …Do whatever he tells you.

Mary showed great wisdom when she said that and every Protestant I know would agree.

 

[Daizies]

Instead of assuming the worst of some Protestants because they don’t honor Mary, I think we should look at their reasoning and assume the best of them…

For them, what the Catholic church teaches about Mary borders on idolatry. And idolatry is a serious sin. They think that Mary is somehow taking the place of Christ in our lives. And NOTHING, NO-ONE should ever supplant Christ. Period. So in their limited understanding, they are acting and believing in a way which is commendable. I don’t believe that God will hold them accountable for what they believe in ignorance.

This is very true. For many Protestants, the perspective is that Catholics worship Mary, and that they place her ahead of Jesus. Now, I know this is not true, but it took me a long time to learn this. I grew up being taught that Catholics are not even Christian. My mother did not permit me to even be friends with Catholics. So how would I know any different?

I cannot speak for all Protestants, but I can tell you what I grew up with. We did not believe Mary was born without sin. We did believe that she was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus, but then she went on to have other children after. We did not believe in the Assumption of Mary. We believed that Mary was special for giving birth to Jesus in obedience to God, but that is all. We did not pray to anyone other than God (ie. any member of the Trinity).

One of the biggest difficulties in my conversion process was learning about praying to the Saints, and to Mary. It can be hard to wrap your head around the concept, for someone who was taught for so many years that prayer is a form of worship, and directed to God alone. I was fortunate to have kind people in RCIA to help me with that. Honestly, if I had been hit with some of the anger that I’ve seen on these boards, I probably would have left and never came back.

Please remember that to many of our Protestant brothers and sisters, prayer is considered a form of worship. You can go a long way towards understanding if you gently explain that to us, prayer is communication, rather than worship. (the differences in word definitions can lead to a lot of misunderstandings). They don’t hate Mary, they just don’t see her the way we do. They were never taught what we are taught - how can you know if you are never told. Railing at them angrily will accomplish nothing but to drive them away.