What about Mary?

[D3b3ra]

Hi everyone! Okay, so lets get down to business. I want to say on a side note growing up, I was non-denominational. I don’t mean a “mom & pop” kind of parish either. My old church was established long long ago and is very creditable and respected among the other churches (of other denominations including Catholic) in the area. That being said, until I was in RCIA (which was terrible, another story for another day) I never once knew I was “protesting” the Catholic church. I never knew I was labeled as a Protestant by the Church. And lemme tell ya, I didn’t like it. So I came into the Catholic Church kicking and screaming. So that being said, I am going to give you MY point of view, not the actual Protestant churches or anyone else’s. Just mine and how I was raised. The end.

1. I never had any feelings of tension with our Blessed Mother until I became Catholic. Heres why, it has nothing to do with venerating her or celebrating a feast day. It has nothing to do with the Rosary. Its when I have heard people say," If Jesus won’t let you in the front door, Mary will let you in the back."… UMMM NO! His own words are (John 14:6) " Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"… Key words “except threw me”. That to me is a crystal clear explanation and I can’t fathom what anyone else would want Jesus to say.
2. I know people, these are real people who I love very much, who, in there own words, have a better relationship with the Blessed Mother then they do her Son. THEE SON. Like thats so sad! Not that Mary isn’t wonderful and great and beautiful and all those other great things about her but she didn’t DIE for anyone. She did not bear the weight of the world and then have to ask her Father “Why have you forsaken me” She didn’t defeat sin and then conquer death too. She was the first Christain because she was the first to say “yes” to Christ and the first to accept him. Don’t get me wrong to think, I think, that Mary had it easy either. Far from it, its part of the reason she is so awesome! She was a tough cookie and still is And yes I think, as a mother, she has every right to ask, (intercede to) her Son for the sake of mankind even the undeserving. But she herself can NOT save them. ONLY Jesus. And He is our Lord and King, he doesn’t always have to say “Yes” When Mary said “Do as he tells you” He could have easily said “Be gone from me” and with every right too. (Wouldn’t have been very nice lol but its his call)
3. Can someone please please please explain what Consecrated to Mary means. Because that does not make me feel comfortable at all either. And I studied and consulted with God about Catholicism for 3 years before I said “alrighty God, if this is really where Im suppose to be now”
4. There is a very fine line between idolatry and venerating and sadly to say, being able to give point of view from both sided of the fence, many Catholics dance on that line. The worst part is they don’t even know.
5. Mary is not the dispenser of all Grace. Saying she “dispensed the Giver who gives all grace” is more accurate. To ask Mary to pray for you and be an example of Gods grace, hey, Im all for it. Ive done it my whole life and knew little to nothing about Catholicism. And this is coming from a person who’s religious background was strictly “If it aint in the Bible it doesn’t matter. And if it is in the Bible you better listen up” (My church wasn’t abrasive like that statement, they’ve always said things much nicer hahaha )
6. And just so you guys know, I read all 4 pages before posting. So there is a lot more I want to touch base on but my brain is starting to fizzle out :tiphat: I totally want to hear what you guys have to say and hopefully we all can enjoy this conversation. I know I have

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hello,

The preamp, I’m here, not there. I don’t know where there is. If its the biggest most respected, don’t know. Apparently someone sent the wrong message somewhere. I doubt it was the elect. Though someone might have misunderstood them. I also was raised Catholic very early 50’s, Sister/Priest/School etc. 1800’s the church dates, its still here as is God. St MIchaels it would be.

1] Umm…no, Mary did bear the weight of world through Her life long YES to God, including and leading to the Annunciation and life with Jesus, in a cave, through the Desert to Egypt and off the Grandmas house she went, to Gods. Was the “first” apostle without doubt. Without doubt understood Jesus better than “anyone”. Just to clarify:thumbsup: Only feeling in Gods Kingdom should be Love anything else isn’t from him, its from you or satan, or you “allowed” someone else make you feel someway, somehow. Not sure how that happened. Apparantly it does happen all the time. I’m very cautious when others project their feelings to me. I see it quickly.

St Marys intercessional powers are know in “every” Apostolic Church. Most definate the Catholic, and “correctly” I might add.

2] I don’t know those people you do. I tell you about the ones I know like “my” mother and grandmother who has passed. They prayed the Rosary every day of their lives. My mothers 90. My grandmother owned the home “next door” to the parish and attended Mass Every Day. My mother attends Mass every weekend, prays daily. They may be SSssh…Saints! I watch carefully and “listen” to them. I always have with those older than me and seemed to know more. I rejected these teachings a very long time, I was wrong, they were right. Didn’t have to be taught love/respect/humility I grew up in it. Do you perceive Mary in any way but Humility? What could-have might have happened in “fact” didn’t, the Words were “Do as He tells you” And He changed the water to wine, very symbolic, as for His words “My Time”. When was Christs Time? Uum the Cross no?? Water to wine…symbolic No?

3] Consecration is a “prayer” Thats it. Consecration of a “country” to the Blessed Mother such as Mexico resulted in 10-million conversions in 9-years. Thats Baptism day and night for 9-years straight. Thats “interceding” to say the “least”. Which apparently Mary is capible of through the Holy Spirit.

4] And there is a thin line between love and hate also. I’m more familiar with that one. And yes they don’t know, they confuse love for hate and hate for love. Not Love for Love. Its a bit tricky to catch this lesson.

5] Grace is dispensed from God at Baptism also through the Holy Spirit through Mary as God from the Holy Spirit desires to YOU. Its a fact. Read St Teresa of Avila. Catherine of Siena. or study Fatima, any of the mystics. St Louis de Montfort…Mary is a Blessing not all recieve, I’m talking about Mary here, by St De Montfort. Why? Because they don’t seek the entire Kingom of God thats why don’t receive the help}, they don’t seek Saints to intercede. They seek the Kingdom with a unfocused lense. Seeing only what the choose to be relivant, Its all relevant, its Gods it “must” be. If he venerates it, so should you, thats the bottom line. BTW whats written in the Bible was written by the CC. They wrote all they had. Before the Bible was also the Catholic Church, there was “NO” other or Bible but OT. Yes we listen to scripture as taught “BY” the Catholic Church. They been their since day “Christ” thats the one with the records still to this day.

I enjoy the conversations also, God Bless, Gary

Let me ask you a question, do you believe St Michael could intercede through prayer if you truly believe?

 

[Credendum]

I never had any feelings of tension with our Blessed Mother until I became Catholic. Heres why, it has nothing to do with venerating her or celebrating a feast day. It has nothing to do with the Rosary. Its when I have heard people say," If Jesus won’t let you in the front door, Mary will let you in the back."… UMMM NO! His own words are (John 14:6) " Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"… Key words “except threw me”. That to me is a crystal clear explanation and I can’t fathom what anyone else would want Jesus to say.

I know people, these are real people who I love very much, who, in there own words, have a better relationship with the Blessed Mother then they do her Son. THEE SON. Like thats so sad! Not that Mary isn’t wonderful and great and beautiful and all those other great things about her but she didn’t DIE for anyone. She did not bear the weight of the world and then have to ask her Father “Why have you forsaken me” She didn’t defeat sin and then conquer death too. She was the first Christain because she was the first to say “yes” to Christ and the first to accept him. Don’t get me wrong to think, I think, that Mary had it easy either. Far from it, its part of the reason she is so awesome! She was a tough cookie and still is And yes I think, as a mother, she has every right to ask, (intercede to) her Son for the sake of mankind even the undeserving. But she herself can NOT save them. ONLY Jesus. And He is our Lord and King, he doesn’t always have to say “Yes” When Mary said “Do as he tells you” He could have easily said “Be gone from me” and with every right too. (Wouldn’t have been very nice lol but its his call)

There is a very fine line between idolatry and venerating and sadly to say, being able to give point of view from both sided of the fence, many Catholics dance on that line. The worst part is they don’t even know.

Mary is not the dispenser of all Grace. Saying she “dispensed the Giver who gives all grace” is more accurate. To ask Mary to pray for you and be an example of Gods grace, hey, Im all for it. Ive done it my whole life and knew little to nothing about Catholicism. And this is coming from a person who’s religious background was strictly “If it aint in the Bible it doesn’t matter. And if it is in the Bible you better listen up” (My church wasn’t abrasive like that statement, they’ve always said things much nicer hahaha )

I’m glad you brought this up, D3b3ra. My old protestant ears are hearing Mary-worship, and my new Catholic ears are becoming attuned to the veneration of Mary. It’s a matter of auditory perception for me.

 

[hn160]

The Lutheran Church celebrates the Blessed Virgin Mary on August 15th as her day. We recognizes her as Theotokos. We do not pray to her for intercession with Christ. We do not have any problem in having icons, pictures, or statues of her.

 

[Cavaradossi]

The Lutheran Church celebrates the Blessed Virgin Mary on August 15th as her day. We recognizes her as Theotokos. We do not pray to her for intercession with Christ. We do not have any problem in having icons, pictures, or statues of her.

Is there any reason in particular that the LCMS does not pray that the Theotokos will intercede for us? Is it just something that’s not really done or is it actually forbidden?

 

[hn160]

Is there any reason in particular that the LCMS does not pray that the Theotokos will intercede for us? Is it just something that’s not really done or is it actually forbidden?

It just isn’t done but not forbidden.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Is there any reason in particular that the LCMS does not pray that the Theotokos will intercede for us? Is it just something that’s not really done or is it actually forbidden?

There seems to lie the issue my brother I do not understand at all. Nor is it consistant with Church History Baptist Protestants prayed for Mary to intercede at late as 1906. Lutheran Peloski wrote; Mary Through the Centurys, then converted.

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

It just isn’t done but not forbidden.

Then why do you connect it incorrectly with “worship”? Perception is often tainted by learned behavior incorrectly, and for no good reason. And then its projected in error.

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m glad you brought this up, D3b3ra. My old protestant ears are hearing Mary-worship, and my new Catholic ears are becoming attuned to the veneration of Mary. It’s a matter of auditory perception for me.

With no direct response to my confrontation, mind you!

Worship=Incorrect, Veneration of Mary existed a very long time, in the arts from 2-AD, church 4-AD. Do you think its posible your “old protestant ears” have a bias opinion of that which it does not know in Truth, but in learned behavior only? No female in the History of the world is more written about with over 2500 biographys, or more Art/Literature.

 

[PbloPicasso]

There is “no-one” in the world who will love you more than your Mother. This dosen’t mean your Father doesn’t love you. But this is how it comes down the pipe. You can count on “one” hand how many people will REALLY be there for you when you need someone there. IMHO its been my Mother, Brother and Cousin, then MY WIFE. You may disagree or “think” differently, I wouldn’t care, I took the class, got the tee-shirt. And btw my wife just came last, which now makes her first. I have great respect for my father, however the truth is the truth. **Mom will not leave those kids. Its a fact of life, and a law of the lands. **

I wish my mom would have read that “Law of the Lands”. She and my father abandoned me even though they never put me up for adoption. The lashed out and hurt me, and my older brother. My little brother at least received the love of mom, but is directionless in life and doesn’t have a “personal relationship with Jesus”, even though he thinks he’s “Baptist or something like that” according to his own words.

Unfortunately, not all of these analogies with the Blessed Mother help those of us whose worst relationship was with their mother, particularly when their mother committed vile acts of hatred towards their children.

BUT, I get it on the basis that I, somehow, know that a mother’s love is tremendous, usually. When I was 16, I consecrated myself to the Holy Family, Joseph as my foster father, Mary as my Mother and Jesus as my brother and savior. I was Catholic then, but had little understanding of the teachings regarding any of them. I somewhat understood Jesus, but not the Saints and particularly the Blessed Mother. But I assure you, I never understood how Protestants, when I was a serious practicing Christian only, could diss the Blessed Mother and claim she wasn’t a virgin after the birth of Jesus without one ounce of proof. Odd, how people that reject the Blessed Mother’s prayers. That should be a no brainer.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I wish my mom would have read that “Law of the Lands”. BUT, I get it on the basis that I, somehow, know that a mother’s love is tremendous, .

I’m sorry you endured suffering my brother. Its sanctification you can be sure. Yes there are the exceptions in all the worlds Truths

Peace

 

[Credendum]

With no direct response to my confrontation, mind you!

Worship=Incorrect, Veneration of Mary existed a very long time, in the arts from 2-AD, church 4-AD. Do you think its posible your “old protestant ears” have a bias opinion of that which it does not know in Truth, but in learned behavior only? No female in the History of the world is more written about with over 2500 biographys, or more Art/Literature.

That’s what I’m saying. My perception was off balance due to lack of exposure to teachings about Mary.

 

[GaryTaylor]

That’s what I’m saying. My perception was off balance due to lack of exposure to teachings about Mary.

Thank-You for your honesty, its much appreciatiated. Seems to be a rare concept in the world today.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

FabiusMaximus, my brother, I can’t help you with incorrect thinking in some concepts with The Blessed Mother. By the most part I haven’t witnessed this. I understand some are on a more extreme aspect of this thinking. I rarely see it though have heard about it.

My best advice is to attend a Catholic Church on Sunday and honestly observe the Mass. I assure you, you won’t see a worship of Our Lady. They won’t hang a ton of Rosarys around your neck, chain you to pew and make you pray to the Blessed Mother.

In the liturgical calender theres a prayer for intercession/Mary in each phase of the calender. Usually those in convents/monestarys observe this very close. I say the same prayers yearly. Yes I’m convinced of Our Ladys power to interceed as Queen of Heaven. And believe its a reality. As to the Assumption, I see both the EO/CC thinking here which date to 4th century. How the body arrived or didn’t in Heaven? I don’t know Bro, I wasn’t there. Imaculate Conception could happened “one” of three ways. I believe Duns Scotus has it right from studying it. It sounds “most fitting” IMHO

I have attended a Catholic Mass on numerous occasions with a close personal friend, a devout Catholic, although I prefer going to the Tridentine Mass. I’ve never had a problem with the Mass and in fact I’ve always thoroughly enjoyed it, especially the High Mass. Just too beautiful for words. The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom similarly is quite beautiful.

I need to also add that I’ve never objected to Mary’s role as intercessor or even Mother of the Church at large. The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, also, are all dogmas I can comfortably deal with.

However it seems to me that certain individual Catholics seem to take these dogmas and elevate Mary to a position that makes me quite uncomfortable.

As far as do “ALL” Graces come through Our Lady? They can, yet I don’t see where its manditory by God they “have” too. Obviously He is GOD. And as Our Lady has stated in all Her apparitions/Miracles. She has a desire to help mankind come closer to God. But also states She cannot hold back his Arm. Only suggests man to see his error, and seek that which is of God, otherwords to seperate needs/wants of the spiritual aspect in Gods Kingdom. And understand you are in a spiritual realm, which by large man has refused to accept.

My comments are more directed toward some individual Catholics who, on this very thread, have suggested that “all graces must come through Mary,” or that “we can only go to Jesus through Mary,” which makes Mary out to be an indispensable part of Christianity. As if salvation is impossible without her. Yes I understand her assent paved the way for Jesus’ incarnation and subsequent crucifixion and redemption of mankind, but God could have also chosen another woman. She should be celebrated for her faithful and honorable life, but I get the feeling some almost deify her.

Also “as Cavaradossi mentioned” has little value in Catholism. He attends the EO. Has he even ever attended a Catholic Mass? Do you know? If you want to seek the Truth from a Catholic standpoint? Go to the source.

No disrespect meant to anyone, this is basically what I’ve mentioned earlier in this thread. I wouldn’t ask Cavaradossi to explain YOUR faith or church either. I’d ask YOU, and attend YOUR church.

I do not think that is what he was doing. I was simply agreeing with an observation he made on certain practices of individual Catholics. I don’t believe he was out to explain what the Roman Catholic Church believes as a whole.

 

[ufamtobie]

No, I don’t have a problem with that. But as Cavaradossi mentioned, there are certain practices and reactions among the faithful that seem to go well beyond that passage of scripture. As I’ve mentioned, I have no qualms about the veneration of Mary, in fact, it makes perfect, logical sense to me. I recognize the position of Mary was “Mother of the Church,” her role as a powerful intercessor for being Christ’s mother, as well as her being the most perfect example of how a Christian should live.

But there is something about “Consecration to Mary,” and some of the other things that were mentioned, like that you can “only get to Christ through Mary” that go well beyond simple veneration and that make me extremely uncomfortable. It doesn’t seem like it is a kind of veneration that leads directly to Christ.

I’m not particularly comfortable with John Paul II’s consecration to Mary. But then again I’m not a Roman Catholic, so it doesn’t reassure me as it might to you. What do you exactly mean by the ‘Mediatrix of all Grace’? Do you mean her role as God-bearer?

Precisely it.

Would you be so kind to clarify how?

“Consecration to the Mother of God,” says Pope Pius XII, “is a total gift of self, for the whole of life and for all eternity; and a gift which is not a mere formality or sentimentality, but effectual, comprising the full intensity of the Christian life - Marian life.” This consecration, the Pope explained, “tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary.”

By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.

Mary is not only the Mother of Jesus, Son of the Eternal Father; she is also Mother of all the Father’s adopted children. As their Mother, she has been given the role of molding them into the likeness of Jesus.

Every work of grace, every increase of grace, is a work of the Holy Spirit; but as in the Incarnation of the Divine Word God used human instruments, so does He in the sanctification of each individual soul. As He chose Mary as the instrument through whom He would come to us, so He chose Mary as the instrument through whom we should go to Him. And both the mystery of God coming to us through Mary, and our being led to God through Mary, is a work of the Holy Spirit. So when we speak of Mary’s unique role in our sanctification, she is but the instrument the Holy Spirit uses in sharing with us the divine life of grace. It is in this sense that Mary fashions us into the likeness of Christ.

However, that this transformation - through Mary’s help - be accomplished in a notable degree, there must be an awareness of her role in our sanctification, a confidence in her maternal concern and in her power under God, a surrender of oneself into her hands, and a fervent, frequent and confident seeking of her aid. This usually comes through some form of consecration to the Mother of God.

At Fatima Our Lady asked for consecration to her Immaculate Heart, a consecration which, among other things, calls for the devotion of the Five First Saturdays, which includes the Rosary, meditation and Communions of reparation - all done in reparation to her Immaculate Heart. It involves a striving to fulfill her requests for prayer and sacrifices for the conversion of sinners and in reparation for offenses against the Divine Majesty. In a word, it involves a striving to fulfill all that she asked for at Fatima, and trying to bring others to heed her requests.

Living that consecration means becoming an apostle of Mary, striving to imitate her virtues, and to place in her hands the flowers of little sacrifices of reparation for the salvation of souls, so that we might strengthen her hand against the attacks of the Evil One, and hasten the day of the triumph of her Immaculate Heart. To everyone who makes that consecration and sincerely tries to live it, the words of Our Lady to the child Lucia at Fatima would also apply: “I will never leave you; my Immaculate Heart will be your refuge, and the way that will lead you to God.”

If consecration to Mary “tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary,” as Pope Pius XII pointed out, we must remember that any gradual transformation into Christ requires a gradual loving acceptance of a greater share in His redeeming Cross.

So when we offer ourselves to Mary to lead us, to form us into the likeness of her Son, we are offering to let her lead us along the way of the Cross.

Our Blessed Mother’s great concern is the salvation of the souls of her children, many of whom are being lost. She looks for generous souls among her children, who are willing to let her lead them close behind her Son, sharing more fully in His redemptive mission, filling up what is wanting in other members of the Body of Christ. Little by little they are transformed to see as Christ sees, and to desire what He desires. God wants to draw us closer to Himself, sharing more fully His Divine life; but we must understand what the fulfillment of this requires

In our Rosary, we contemplate Mary in Heaven in the Glorious Mysteries, because she had so unique a role on earth in the Sorrowful Mysteries. This is the pattern that is offered to each of us, and of which we are reminded each time we pray the Rosary.

Consecration to Mary, then, requires a childlike simplicity and confidence, letting her lead one by the hand, trusting - regardless of what lies ahead - that she knows better than we what contributes most to God’s glory, our sanctification and the salvation of souls.

Ufam Tobie

 

[D3b3ra]

Let me ask you a question, do you believe St Michael could intercede through prayer if you truly believe?

I believe that St Micheal, according with Gods will (the only way that could happen), could intercede. I believe that he and the other angels are a little different then the human saints because they play a very different role in the whole universal design. Just like I believe human saints like our Blessed Mother, St. Lucy, Saint Benedict of Nursia, and many others can only intereced if it is God will. Everything divine is only of God will.

I may pray/converse with Saint Michael and he would/may take my prayers to God but that does not mean God will answer them by sending or using St Micheal. He may not even give me the answer I want lol. It all comes down to God’s will.

 

[hn160]

Then why do you connect it incorrectly with “worship”? Perception is often tainted by learned behavior incorrectly, and for no good reason. And then its projected in error.

Peace

I never said anything about worshiping Mary, the perception is by praying to Mary for intercession, one could place too much emphasis on her rather than Christ. There are some in the Catholic Church who would make her Co-Redemptrix.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Mediatrix of All Graces

Mediatrix in itself could refer to either the objective redemption (the once-for-all earning a title to grace for all men), to the subjective redemption (the distribution of this grace to individual men), or to both. It is most usual to use it to refer only to subjective redemption, i.e. , the process of giving out the fruits of the objective redemption, throughout all centuries. We must consider whether or not the term Mediatrix applies to all graces or only to some. We will ask also about the nature of the mediation: is it only by way of intercession, that is, does Mary simply pray to her Son that he may give us grace, or does God also use her as an instrument in distributing grace.

To begin, we can say without doubt that the title “Mediatrix” is justified, and applies to all graces for certain, by her cooperation in acquiring all graces on Calvary

Second Vatican Council

… in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.

This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer…"

We notice that Vatican II did not add the words “of all graces.” However, as many papal texts point out, Mary’s role in dispensation flows logically from her role in acquiring all graces. Further, the Council itself added a note on the above passage, in which it refers us to the texts of Leo XIII, Adiutricem populi, St. Pius X, Ad diem illum, Pius XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, and Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima.

Leo XIII, in the text referred to, spoke of her, as we saw above, as having “practically limitless power.” St. Pius X said she was the "dispensatrix of all the gifts, and is the “neck” connecting the Head of the Mystical Body to the Members. But all power flows through the neck. Pius XII said “Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.” These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible.

Objection

Protestants object, saying that there is only one mediator: 1 Tim 2:5. We agree that there are many ways in which Christ is the only mediator between God and man. 1) There is only one mediator who is such by very nature, being both true God and true man. 2) There is only one mediator whose whose work is necessary, without whom, in God’s plan, there could be no salvation. 3) There is only one mediator who depends on no one else for power.

Mary differs on all three counts. 1) Mary only a creature, but it was appropriate that God be freely choose her as Mediatrix because he had made her Mother of the God-man, the Redeemer–it was she who on behalf of the whole human race consented to God’s plan of salvation by proclaiming herself the handmaid of the Lord. 2) Her role was not necessary, since Christ was and is the perfect Redeemer and the perfect Mediator. Rather, Mary was associated with her Son by the free decision of the Father, a decision which we cannot ignore. 3) Her whole ability to do anything comes entirely from her Son, and hence we are not contradicting Lumen gentium # 62 which says no creature can be ever counted together with Him.

Really, the Father did not need her at all, except that if He decreed the incarnation, He necessarily decreed a Mother: she was and is that Mother. But everything else in which He has employed her is not needed.

Yet, if we recall the economy of redemption, it is clear that the Father wants everything to be as rich as possible, so that He will not stop with something lesser if there is more than can be done. Really, the incarnation in a palace, without death, would have been infinite in merit and satisfaction, as we have seen in the section on her cooperation in the redemption.

Further, the principle of St. Thomas helps here. In Summa Theologiae I. 19. 5. c., Thomas says that it pleases God to have one thing in place to serve as a title or reason for granting something further, even though that title does not move Him. It is His love of all goodness and good order that leads Him to act this way. Hence too, even though Calvary earned infinite forgiveness and graces, the Father wills to provide titles for giving out these, in the Mass. Even though He did not need even our Lady, yet He willed to employ her. Even though there is no need of any other saints, in objective or subjective redemption, yet He wills to add them–all to make everything, every title, as rich as possible.

Lumen gentium speaks of her as taking care of all her children. We are extremely numerous, but yet not infinite in number. Therefore, we are not too numerous for her to see and care for. For her capacity for that infinite vision of God is in proportion to her love on earth, so great that Pius IX, as we saw, said it was so great that “none greater under God can be thought of, and no one but God can comprehend it.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

Is her mediation merely by intercession, prayer for us to her Son and to God the Father? Or does she also play a role in the distribution of graces from the Father through her Son to us? Many today, influenced by Protestant theology, tend to speak of grace merely as favor, and so say grace is not a thing given. But that would imply Pelagianism, the heresy that says that we can be saved by our own power. For if God merely sits there and smiles at me, and gives me nothing, that would mean that I had to do it by my own power.

So we answer, since Mary was associated with her Son in acquiring grace for us, she will also share with him in distributing that grace to us. This fits well with the words of the Popes, who call her the administra of grace, meaning that she administers or dispenses it. So Pope Leo XIII, Iucunda semper, said:

"… when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; in accordance with no other law than that law of conciliation and petition which was expressed as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : 'Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us

Fr. Most

 

[GaryTaylor]

I never said anything about worshiping Mary, the perception is by praying to Mary for intercession, one could place too much emphasis on her rather than Christ. There are some in the Catholic Church who would make her Co-Redemptrix.

No such thing its a fairy tale. St Mary leads sinners to Her Son/Heaven. For those moved by Divine Instinct, there is no need to take such counsel according to human reason, but only follow their inner-promptings, since they are moved by a principle higher than human reason!

Peace