What about that "free will"?

[fhansen]

Well yeah.

While free will is mostly a mirage – “freedom” as seen from inside our heads, masking the strict conditioning from our physical somas and the internalized psychological constraints – it is not altogether a mirage. There remains a nucleus of freedom, though far smaller than we have been told.

ICXC NIKA

Oh yes, to be sure. There is a degree of freedom. Very little doubt on that!

How absolute it is would be what I was referring to. After all, ain’t my universe…

And yet even if we’re free enough to choose between set parameters: good over evil, life over death as the bible frames it, that’s still a far cry different than a being who has no such parameters, one for whom those choices are already made, who could only “choose” good, for example, since in reality they have no choice because they lack the possibility of choosing evil.

 

[STT]

There are many people who assert that the “gift” of free will is the reason of suffering. They invariably ask, if I would prefer to be converted into a “happy little robot”, or prefer the world as it is today, with all the suffering.

This is a false dichotomy. Free will is not a “binary variable”, which either exists or does not. Our free will (and the ability to act on it) only allows some limited actions - even today. Besides, why limit the free will of the saints-to-be? Why not take away only the freedom of the rapists-to-be? God is obviously able to draw a line, and say: “person A” can have all the freedom, because he will not abuse it, while “person B” will have only a very limited freedom (choose between chocolate and vanilla ice-cream), because he would abuse if he were given too much freedom.

And it leads to the following problems:

Will there be “free will” in heaven? Does “free will” include the ability to sin? Shall we be “free” to sin (in heaven)?

Free will is a deficiency because a rational agent always acts correctly while free will always allows a wrong act.

 

[Vonsalza]

Free will is a deficiency because a rational agent always acts correctly while free will always allows a wrong act.

Correctly? As though that was always knowable?

My children are in poverty and I have no job and no prospects. I can sell harmful, illegal drugs and provide for my family, even though drugs hurt people and expose me to the risk of incarceration.

How does the rational agent act within this reality for millions of people worldwide - especially in countries with no social safety nets?

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

No one anywhere knows exactly how a restored humanity will experience eternity with God.

No kidding. But I will go one step further. None of the believers have actual evidence for ANY of their claims of the “supernatural”. It is ALL wishful thinking and speculation. Been there, done it, have a t-shirt to prove it.

It’s likely just tangential to your frustrations from being unable to walk away from Christianity with unblemished conviction. Which is also probably why you’re still here.

I would suggest not to give up your daily gig and try to make living by becoming mind-reader. You would not make enough money to afford to get even tepid water. As the old saying goes: what you believe is not even wrong.

 

[Vonsalza]

No kidding. But I will go one step further. None of the believers have actual evidence for ANY of their claims of the “supernatural”. It is ALL wishful thinking and speculation. Been there, done it, have a t-shirt to prove it.

I prefer the term “metaphysical” and you’re right. No abstraction has ever been proven to materially exist. These include beauty, love, happiness, ugliness, hate, sadness. Neural markers materially exist, but they’re derivatives. Causal direction is unknown, but leans in favor of the abstraction causing the chemical releases.

I would suggest not to give up your daily gig and try to make living by becoming mind-reader. You would not make enough money to afford to get even tepid water. As the old saying goes: what you believe is not even wrong.

In fairness, I did say that I could be wrong
I may not be though. Sour apples and whatnot.

 

[STT]

Correctly? As though that was always knowable?

My children are in poverty and I have no job and no prospects. I can sell harmful, illegal drugs and provide for my family, even though drugs hurt people and expose me to the risk of incarceration.

A correct act is different from a good act. Correct: Free from error and in accordance with fact or truth. Good: That which is morally right. Therefore, your act of selling drug is correct but is not good. You as a rational agent eventually follow your reason, sell the drug, when your life become enough harsh.

How does the rational agent act within this reality for millions of people worldwide - especially in countries with no social safety nets?

We are rational but don’t have proper education therefore there would be no sign of improvement unless we learn and teach better.

 

[Vonsalza]

A correct act is different from a good act. Correct: Free from error and in accordance with fact or truth. Good: That which is morally right. Therefore, your act of selling drug is correct but is not good. You as a rational agent eventually follow your reason, sell the drug, when your life become enough harsh.

So selling drugs is not erroneous, eh? Your metric for error, please.

 

[STT]

So selling drugs is not erroneous, eh?

Yes, selling the drug is rational depending on situation.

Your metric for error, please.

Whatever you do as a rational agent is free from error. What you do might look like not good but to do good you need a proper education and suitable situation to live.

 

[Vonsalza]

Yes, selling the drug is rational depending on situation…

…Whatever you do as a rational agent is free from error.

You circular-referenced there.

“rational is correct”
“correct is free from error”
“free from error is whatever you do rationally”

Yeah, I paraphrased, but it was very lightly done.

 

[STT]

You circular-referenced there.

“rational is correct”
“correct is free from error”
“free from error is whatever you do rationally”

Yeah, I paraphrased, but it was very lightly done.

That is always the case unless you know the definition of something so we could start from there. For this case, let me know if you know which word you know and I define the rest in term of the word you know. Here is the list, Correct, Error and Rational.

 

[Vonsalza]

That is always the case unless you know the definition of something so we could start from there. For this case, let me know if you know which word you know and I define the rest in term of the word you know. Here is the list, Correct, Error and Rational.

:thumbsup: