What about the "bad" things?

[Astrochemist]

A preface: Respecting the current topic ban on evolution, I want to begin and structure the direction of this thread very carefully.

As such, we will presume that God created the heavens and the earth by some means the nature of which we will not discuss here.

Adam and Eve existed as real people who fell into sin through transgression against God.

That’s the preface.

---

Lot’s of things in the world appear, by their nature, to be “bad things”, like hurricanes, the HIV virus, mosquitoes, entropy, and demons.

About these things I have an assertion and a few question:

Assertion:
(A1) Everything that exists, even after the fall, exists for a reason, ultimately for the glory of God.

Questions:
(Q1) What is the purpose of these “bad things”, or, in what way do they glorify God?

(Q2) Did they have a different purpose before the fall, or did they exist in a different way (for demons the answer is obvious)?

(Q3) Did physical evil exist before the fall? If so, did it affect humans as well? If not, was biology completely different than it is now, as biological processes, even the eating of plants, involves some physical evil (the death of plant-cells)?

 

[StAnastasia]

A preface: Respecting the current topic ban on evolution, I want to begin and structure the direction of this thread very carefully. As such, we will presume that God created the heavens and the earth by some means the nature of which we will not discuss here. Adam and Eve existed as real people who fell into sin through transgression against God.

That’s the preface.

Astrochemist, in light of the current ban on the topic of evolution, I cannot participate in this discussion thread. Best wishes to all who contribute!

StAnastasia

 

[GEddie]

A preface: Respecting the current topic ban on evolution, I want to begin and structure the direction of this thread very carefully.

As such, we will presume that God created the heavens and the earth by some means the nature of which we will not discuss here.

Adam and Eve existed as real people who fell into sin through transgression against God.

That’s the preface.

---

Lot’s of things in the world appear, by their nature, to be “bad things”, like hurricanes, the HIV virus, mosquitoes, entropy, and demons.

About these things I have an assertion and a few question:

Assertion:
(A1) Everything that exists, even after the fall, exists for a reason, ultimately for the glory of God.

Questions:
(Q1) What is the purpose of these “bad things”, or, in what way do they glorify God?

(Q2) Did they have a different purpose before the fall, or did they exist in a different way (for demons the answer is obvious)?

(Q3) Did physical evil exist before the fall? If so, did it affect humans as well? If not, was biology completely different than it is now, as biological processes, even the eating of plants, involves some physical evil (the death of plant-cells)?

I’d say that the “bad things” are bad only insofar as they cause us to suffer; for example, a hurricane that never touches land, but brings needed rain thousands of miles from its core, is not a “bad thing.” There are good effects even from things that cause human suffering; however, I’m not touching that issue this time.

Other “bad things” are ncessary to life as we know it. Say entropy. We have entropic bodies; that is, we experience life because the life in our bodies is fuelled by entropy–driven chemistry. The drwback is that we will die, because we cannot fully expel this entropy from the substance of our bodies, and as it builds up it will one day cause us not to hold life. Without reference to evolution, I think I can say that whoever Adam and eve were, they had the same sort of bodies we do. So they were entropic. No entropy, no life.
(Entropy-driven chemistry also makes technology possible).

Without a fall, I imagine we’d see the same physical conditions we know now. The difference being, we’d not take the same notice of them, because GOD would have given us such command over nature that they would not hurt us. That command was lost for us, but will be regained in the Life Everlasting.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Astrochemist]

In general, the answer you give concerning these issues is far better than the answer I would have given. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom.

Other “bad things” are ncessary to life as we know it. Say entropy. We have entropic bodies; that is, we experience life because the life in our bodies is fuelled by entropy–driven chemistry.

I agree, and am not of the mind that all the laws of physics were somehow very different before the fall.

Now, does this mean, though, is that before the fall, Adam and Eve had a particular control over entropy, that would have allowed their bodies to be immortal and incorruptible?

Without a fall, I imagine we’d see the same physical conditions we know now. The difference being, we’d not take the same notice of them, because GOD would have given us such command over nature that they would not hurt us. That command was lost for us, but will be regained in the Life Everlasting.

Does this mean that suffering, at least of other animals, existed before the fall?

 

[Astrochemist]

Astrochemist, in light of the current ban on the topic of evolution, I cannot participate in this discussion thread. Best wishes to all who contribute!

StAnastasia

I don’t understand. This thread was carefully set up not to violate that ban.

The purpose of this thread is to talk about theodicy before the fall compared to after the fall, its connection with teleology, and some of the complications provided by our understanding of the world (sans evolution).

Why would the current ban prevent you from participating in a discussion that has nothing to do with the ban?

 

[GEddie]

In general, the answer you give concerning these issues is far better than the answer I would have given. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom.

You’re welcome.

I agree, and am not of the mind that all the laws of physics were somehow very different before the fall.

Now, does this mean, though, is that before the fall, Adam and Eve had a particular control over entropy, that would have allowed their bodies to be immortal and incorruptible?

Well, no, in that once you have immortality and incorruptibility, you have them for ever. (Immortality is the “inability to die” not the “possibility not to die.”) IMNAAHOIO, if they had managed to avoid falling, GOD would have given them the means (from the tree of life?) to remove the entropic materials from their body ( arterial plaques in neck, Alzheimer proteins in their head, cancerous lesions in skin, etc) and so remain alive. Because they fell, this was denied to them, and is denied us.

They would still not have been immortal, though. They would have remained entropic bodies, as such, keyed to a deteriorating universe. Immortality requires the sort of “spiritual body” that we will have in Heaven (anentropic) (1 Corinthians 15). Again, IMNAAHOIO, they would ultimately have been fitted with the Spiritual Body without the hideous shamefulness of being dead; again, denied them and us.

Does this mean that suffering, at least of other animals, existed before the fall?

I’d say yes. Certainly carnivorous life were created along with man, and animals suffer when being eaten. Presumably without a fall, A&E’s tasks would have included the redirection of nature to avoid that suffering (don’t ask me how).

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Astrochemist]

Well, no, in that once you have immortality and incorruptibility, you have them for ever. (Immortality is the “inability to die” not the “possibility not to die.”)

These would be effectively identical for a person who is always perfectly moral, would they not?

They would still not have been immortal, though. They would have remained entropic bodies, as such, keyed to a deteriorating universe. Immortality requires the sort of “spiritual body” that we will have in Heaven (anentropic) (1 Corinthians 15). Again, IMNAAHOIO, they would ultimately have been fitted with the Spiritual Body without the hideous shamefulness of being dead; again, denied them and us.

Interesting. So the bodies that we will hopefully have because of Christ’s sacrifice and grace are perfect, and also in some way different from the bodies of Adam and Eve?

I’d say yes. Certainly carnivorous life were created along with man, and animals suffer when being eaten. Presumably without a fall, A&E’s tasks would have included the redirection of nature to avoid that suffering (don’t ask me how).

Aww… now I want to ask you how.

I’ll ask something else. Why would Adam and Eve be tasked with minimizing something God is allowing?

 

[GEddie]

These would be effectively identical for a person who is always perfectly moral, would they not?

Good question, and no, not really.

Without the fall, human beings would still be entropic bodies, and therefore “deathable.” The Rube Goldberg chemical chain that converts energy to life for us would remain breakable at too many points and in too many ways (broken neck, choking, drowning, heat exhaustion, etc.) Being kept alive is not the same as being unable to die. For that, you need a new, and anentropic, body.

Also, having avoided one fall does not, as the timeline rolls on, negate ever falling. Whereas in the eternity of Heaven, your choice is “locked in.”

Interesting. So the bodies that we will hopefully have because of Christ’s sacrifice and grace are perfect, and also in some way different from the bodies of Adam and Eve?

YES!!! It’s in 1 Corinthians 15 and referred again in 2 Co 5. While the human “Spiritual Body” resembles our natural form (e.g. JESUS after His resurrection), it is a Heavenly Body; drawing life from Heaven, from GOD Himself directly (and therefore eternally), rather than from the entropy stream. “It is sown corruptible * it is raised incorruptible; it is sown dishonorable, it is raised glorious; it is sown weak, it is raised powerful…there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” 1 Co 15:42-44.

Aww… now I want to ask you how.

I’ll ask something else. Why would Adam and Eve be tasked with minimizing something God is allowing?

Because (IMNAAHOIO) He wanted to share with them the experience of building the world. They were meant to be the solution; they became part of the problem.

ICXC NIKA

 

[StAnastasia]

I don’t understand. This thread was carefully set up not to violate that ban. The purpose of this thread is to talk about theodicy before the fall compared to after the fall, its connection with teleology, and some of the complications provided by our understanding of the world (sans evolution). Why would the current ban prevent you from participating in a discussion that has nothing to do with the ban?

Astrochemist, I appreciate your having set up this thread. However, since I teach and write Catholic theology in an evolutionary framework, I feel that this silly and arbitrary ban on discussing evolution needlessly ties my arms behind my back. It would be like telling someone that “we are going to discuss the problem of suffering but you may not refer to St. Thomas Aquinas or the Gospels.”

 

[Astrochemist]

St. Anastasia also told me as much in a private communication. I find this reasonable, and should have expressed as much myself.

Astrochemist, I appreciate your having set up this thread. However, since I teach and write Catholic theology in an evolutionary framework, I feel that this silly and arbitrary ban on discussing evolution needlessly ties my arms behind my back. It would be like telling someone that “we are going to discuss the problem of suffering but you may not refer to St. Thomas Aquinas or the Gospels.”

 

[Astrochemist]

Good question, and no, not really.

 

[GEddie]

GEddie;6358894:

I think you missed my meaning.

They would seem to be effectively identical because, if a completely perfect and innocent individual could preserve his or her life naturally forever, yet chose not to, that individual would be willing something contrary to his or her nature, and so would be doing something imperfect.

As such, any perfect individual who could naturally live forever, would.

There is still a substantial difference between a body who is successively kept from dying, versus an “eternal” body who is made incapable of dying.

Interesting. I’m not sure I completely agree with the interpretation, but it does make good sense.

I’m interested to hear your interpretation.

There would be other potential “problems” to deal with, that don’t involve physical evil. Why would God start off humanity in a world that does?

I wouldn’t even attempt that question. “What if’s” haveing more than one level to them really don’t go anywhere. GOD Bless.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Astrochemist]

There is still a substantial difference between a body who is successively kept from dying, versus an “eternal” body who is made incapable of dying.

My point is only that they are effectively identical.

I’m interested to hear your interpretation.

I am no theologian. I don’t have a very deep interpretation. My view is:

They had it. They lost it. They got it back when Jesus came to release them from Hades. We can hope to have what we were meant to on the last day.

I wouldn’t even attempt that question. “What if’s” haveing more than one level to them really don’t go anywhere. GOD Bless.

Fair enough.

 

[GEddie]

My point is only that they are effectively identical.

Maybe. To me they are not the same. I would very much like to have access to some means of keeping myself naturally breathing indefinitely (by expelling my body’s entropy). But how much more to be given a body that death can never touch!

ICXC NIKA

 

[Astrochemist]

Maybe. To me they are not the same. I would very much like to have access to some means of keeping myself naturally breathing indefinitely (by expelling my body’s entropy). But how much more to be given a body that death can never touch!

I would rather have the former; maybe that’s a sign of my own imperfections.

 

[GEddie]

I would rather have the former; maybe that’s a sign of my own imperfections.

Not really, Paul; I understand. Given the choice, you would rather not undergo death, but remain in you natural body. Capisco
If I had that choice, I’d be tempted by it, too.

But since we do not, at least we can take heart in that the power and glory of our Spiritual Bodies will be a recompense, as it were, for the hideosity of death.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Astrochemist]

GEddie, I agree. God knows best.

 

[momor]

Interesting discussion. May I jump in here?

I have always wondered if perhaps the heaven and earth that God created wasn’t in fact the same place of eternal life we will have after the final judgement and the resurrection of the glorified body. In other words, the fall changed the nature of our existence from a glorified and immortal one (for all life) where Adam and Eve walked and talked with God to our current physically mortal one, separated from God and Heaven.

Isn’t this mirrored by the fall of the angels? They were created in heaven as spirit only creatures and the faithful angels are still there but satan and the demons were cast out to a different and painful place, like Adam and Even were cast out of the garden. Because there were some angels that did not sin, the original nature of the sinless did not change. However, since both Adam and Even sinned, the nature of all human life changed.

I hope I wrote this clearly enough.

Is there anything scripturally to discount that view?

 

[Astrochemist]

Interesting discussion. May I jump in here?

Definitely!

I have always wondered if perhaps the heaven and earth that God created wasn’t in fact the same place of eternal life we will have after the final judgement and the resurrection of the glorified body. In other words, the fall changed the nature of our existence from a glorified and immortal one (for all life) where Adam and Eve walked and talked with God to our current physically mortal one, separated from God and Heaven.

Isn’t this mirrored by the fall of the angels? They were created in heaven as spirit only creatures and the faithful angels are still there but satan and the demons were cast out to a different and painful place, like Adam and Even were cast out of the garden. Because there were some angels that did not sin, the original nature of the sinless did not change. However, since both Adam and Even sinned, the nature of all human life changed.

I hope I wrote this clearly enough.

Is there anything scripturally to discount that view?

I don’t know if the Church has said anything about this view. Maybe someone more knowledgeable will be able to answer that question of yours.